jodgi

[Citation needed] [Citation needed] _______________ I only care about fun fighting so I'd welcome sides balancing of any and all kinds (incentives and/or hard-limits).

Would you do this when every freedom-sandboxer solves this problem at lower taxes using alts? Who's more shady: The smuggler paying high tax or the alt paying less?

Yup, It's about making the patrol missions fun for as many as possible, even silly solo players. It's about recruiting and retaining players.

Here you can play around with perk points to get aquanted with the possible combinations (save own copy): I'd say it's easier to identify the perks that are useless for PvP What you should pick depends on your fav ship and it's build combined with what you intend to do with it; boarding fit, tank build, speed and so on. What I'd recommend for you is to get cheap npc shop ships and go to patrol mission areas. Expect to be ganked, expect to lose and don't get discouraged when that happens. PvP xp grinding is harder, slower and much more expensive than PvE grinding, but you just said you wanted to learn PvP. You learn almost nothing from PvE and some of the good PvE habits are actually bad PvP habits. Set up outposts close to the patrol areas: Tumbado, La Tortue, Aves and Shroud Cay, this map might help you. A list of unordered perks useful for PvP: Double charge, double shot, prepared, determined defender, expert carpenter, (area control), rigging specialist and (carronade master). If you get low on cash you might be forced to do PvE. Killing or capping ventres is the most readily available PvE grinding method that is close to max xp/time. Practise this if you haven't already:

No, it's beautiful. More of that, pls.

Fantastic recruitment strategy!

Just did the Tumbado patrol in an aggy since there's so many big ships (Sorry I'm a part of the problem). Saw a lone Spaniard in a Bellona, tagged him without even blinking as I'm willing to provide content to others more than I do this to "play to win" (Sorry, Doran). Had a real friendly chat with the guy while I was winning the dps war. (He told me he was noob and asked if I was pro.) Then Vazco and friend joined. Vaz is in the clear, they were together and such is the sandbox. The Spaniard went sour real quick, almost as quickly as I fouled up a move and got boarded (I haven't practised these rather boring big ships, sorry). I was trying to encourage him in all chat: "Yes, It is unfair... do as much damage as you can for the rewards... no, don't run to the circle, get damage done" _________________________ My take-away: Question first: Do people think they have to bring big and rather expensive ships to the patrol area to get enough damage done? At least I admit to thinking along those lines... To fulfill the intention of the patrol missions; Do we need to make (some) missions where you can't bring bigger ships than those available cheaply by npc sellers? Think of it as some form of "He maketh me to lie down in green pastures". People are so set in their ganking big ship sandbox ways some force may be needed to free them of their yoke, before they can learn to have fun yet again. I'd frikkin' clear the schedule for those nights and I could even play deliberately badly to teach some non-pro guy that fighting is fun. _________________________ Even if it would make those serious-face sandboxers lose their mind; I'd love to go to a matchmaker area, in the OW, mind you. It would be a fun test to check if we fun-loving idiots really are a teeny-tiny and loudmouth minority. If they're right it would die down with only me, Vazco, tommi(?), Laik, MG, Hachi, rediii(?), bom, vernonM, pala(?),norfolk, joba, archaos, galileus, Otto, baltic, manuva, z4ys(?), Olav, banished(?), liq, jon, fellvred, ... *clears throat* joining that terrible form of fun? (Insert your name in the list... "Hello, I love you, won't you tell me your name?...")

And there are other ways of avoiding them "parking" next to your moving hull. Suggestions have already been posted in this thread. Ech, don't be obtuse.

I've always liked that small ships pose a threat to big ships. If princes cause you trouble you can drop down to some frigate and escape or kill them with more ease.

Didn't have time to do the patrol yesterday, but talked to baltic as he was doing it. A lot of big ships, aggy galore with bucs on top. Maybe it will shift naturally as people burn through their multi alt reedemable aggys? With BR limits I'm hoping less people get out alive even if they're running gank groups of big ships in patrols. If we're underestimating people's motivation to spend on big ships for patrol ganking there are still ways of further encouraging or forcing equal sides. If I take the starting player's perspective it would be truly great if he really can pick up a cheap shop frigate and get damage done in a patrol mission. Right now the entry fee is a little on the steep side, lets hope it's artificially high (redeemable aggys).

Losing is demotivating in itself, then multiply that with loss. I don't think I have trouble understanding that. Do you agree with Jon that it's caused by PvE hostility grind?

This is the weirdest part of what must be the sandbox mentality(?). Why isn't the bragging rights or fun fighting motivation enough? Would you need extra synthetic motivation to endure PvE hostility grind? Do you need to get something the other guy is denied? I'm not teasing, it's just that EVERY game I've played has had no other motivation for PvP than bragging rights and fun. I think I get it, but then I don't. I burned out on the second WoT campaign. You could say too much fighting combined with a stringent fighting schedule, not entirely unlike PB timers. For me it was too much of a good thing and that is not how I understand your comment.

Must be 90° since "42lb wont penetrate Surprise at 15 degrees with ease."

It's a pity the best part of this game is held back by fear of loss.

Us PvP purists don't feel catered to at all, I can't understand what gave you that idea. I don't understand what you're referring to when you say "force people to play a certain way".

But yours isn't?

Maybe... On paper you could do that. How to get a lot of damage to be multiplied while running around getting shot by everyone, though?

Patrol mission are there to get people into the OW, that's an overreaching goal now. I'm not suggesting anything fair and balanced, feel free to continue with scumbag sandbox stuff. No new ROE here. The announced BR limits are, tho.

Why not? We've done things like that in the past and "sandbox freedom" guys defo don't like that.

Cross post attention whoring:

Maybe something that will help patrol missions fullfull their intention?

Ok, so the loss-induced propensity to bring big ships, friends and pile on the winning side has cast a shadow over the patrol missions. BR limits will help and maybe even fix it? The intention of the patrol missions is that players should feel free to bring an un-modded and cheap ship, do as best they can, sink but get enough rewards to make them not care about their loss. The big groups of big ships piling on makes it hard for smaller ships to do enough damage to farm rewards, at least enough to make the experience equally frustrating to a normal gank anywhere in the OW. Sandboxers love to gank. They will tell you they love their freedom, role-playing, war-game or “playing it smart”, but they simply love to gank. Even reasonable guys are quickly turned to the dark side when the lizard brain kicks in and tries to avoid loss at all cost, yes, even to the point of having less fun. There may be something we can do to counteract this, or give the lizard brain something else to knee-jerk to. We’ve talked about this loosely in the past but it’s never been tried: BR based multipliers. We could have variable multipliers applied to xp, cash, marks, damage or all of them but for the purpose of patrol missions I guess most players are grinding the damage thresholds. The idea is to let the gankee get something from it while at the same time making ganking a truly inefficient way of farming rewards. Let’s start with an example where one ship is ganked by three ships and two late joiners come in to, um, secure the win. As it is today all damage is logged for all ships and rewards are based upon said logged damage. In my illustration the B-C-D gankers know they will have to share the damage but one of them is getting the kill rewards and it will be over quickly enough for them to go find a new victim. The victim will struggle to do enough damage to make it feel worth it, he will soon lose the ship, get sent back to port to buy a new ship, guns and repairs. Let’s say we put a tag on all incoming damage. Ship A would have damage tags from ships B, C and D. The gankers would only have damage tag from ship A. Then we could make damage or reward multipliers based on those tags: A multiplier: sum(BR-B, BR-C, BR-D)/BR-A = 450/200 = 2.25 B, C and D multiplier: sum(BRtags)/BR-B = 200/150 = 1.33 Notice how the gankers are even being rewarded for ganking in lower BR ships than their victim. It’s even possible to actively pulverize the gankers rewards by using the tags to indentify the gank, but it would get more complicated and I suspect it’s enough to give the victim a consolation price. The late joiners, though inside the battle instance, don’t factor in as they didn’t get close enough to put a damage tag on the victim. If they did get some damage in they would get precious little for it while bolstering the victim’s multiplier: 1050/200 = 5.25. If you want to enjoy your freedom and gank the shit out of people like a true sandboxer you can go ahead until blue in the face, but you will let the victim run off with all the rewards. If you are motivated by rewards you’ll have a strong tendency to join the outnumbered side to get damage done and farm those damage tags.

Hmm.. Maybe it looks like that from where you're sitting? I want nothing but pvp, ideally. I don't have patience for the suspension of disbelief stuff you guys call "meaning". I could start a list of players I've played with or played against that also are primarily interested in pvp. Those guys aren't here anymore. I don't think they got your memo that somehow OW is geared towards "those who want pvp all the time".

But those were far worse gank zones.