Tacking Sequence

[themule08]

I would suggest eventually making either a sailing tutorial or at least a compilation of these video for new player to access in game. Being able to effectively master these sailing techniques is going to be a huge part of PvP, and for a majority of players, it's going to go right over their heads.

This is highly needed I can not turn for the life of me.. with auto on does not seem to know I am trying to turn.. without it on I have no idea where to put sails since I have never sailed.. it is quite frustrating

[Mirones]

bear with me of to ms paint i go

a video untill i finished sems i dont need to paint something evrything is shown here

Edited July 5, 2014 by Mirones

[gdir]

Excellent videos, Mirones!

[Chilly Willy]

very nice

worked on the turns yesterday

wish id seen the vids first 

they are a big help

[Mirones]

no problem 

[SeaDog]

These videos are really useful, and also very relaxing  . Thanks Minores 

[Mirones]

maybe edit the first post with these links so its easyier to find

[Mirones]

another common mistake that i see is people with manual skipper raising sails to slow down in line formation

instead of using the sails by puting them in negativ wind force

[Johny Reb]

Added video to my first post with voice overlay explaining the elements of the manual tack.

[maturin]

another common mistake that i see is people with manual skipper raising sails to slow down in line formation

instead of using the sails by puting them in negativ wind force

braking.jpg

Unfortunately this tactic isn't as valid as it should be, because we have no way of furling or luffing the powerful jibs and staysails.

[Mirones]

true but it is currently enough and is faster then taking the sails in and set them again specialy if you are in gunnery focus

[McCullogh]

 

I found this "how to" video on tacking a square rigged ship

[admin]

We saw several new questions on tacking and how to tack - made a small video (similar to Ink's)

 

here is how to tack in NA

[maturin]

So that video shows the proper timing for Mainsail Haul (swiveling the after yards). However, the game will currently penalize you for using this realistic method, because Ink has discovered a superior, unrealistic method.

 

If you switch over your main and mizzen yards too early (even from a beam reach or 90-degree wind angle), you will actually get through the tack faster, because the upwind turn will be faster.

 

In real life, you don't want to have any backing sails until the last minute, because you would bleed off all your speed and possibly not even reach the eye of the wind with any momentum left. Furthermore, an easy tack relies on ordering Mainsail Haul at a very precise moment. When the ship is just in the eye of the wind, one half of the maintopsail will be becalmed, and one half will be aback. This means that you don't have to really haul it around at all; it will fly to the other side on its own. If you miss this moment, bracing it around will be slow and exhausting work.

 

Here is Ink's video where he tacks from only 2 knots. I remember that the devs' stated aims for the tacking system were that it should require speed and timing. The video proves that neither are required:

 

Possible ideas for (mostly scripted) fixes:

A heavy increase for the braking force of all sails being aback, so that the ship slows to a halt before even reaching the wind.

Making the yard control speed depend on the wind angle (hauling on the braces is slower when fighting the wind)

If your ship hits the eye of the wind with low speed, it artificially stop turning.

 

Edit: And one more tip for tacking, enable manual skipper before you hit the eye of the wind, so your fore yards don't come over automatically. That is just a problem with the autoskipper.

[admin]

Ink's video is based on the old testing build. It had exaggerated stationary turning speed.

 

+ if consider the positions of sails in relation to the wind logically - we see no logical flaws in it. 

Backward pressure provides the correct vector of force + turns the ship in the right direction. He uses that logic to make a turn while stationary. 

[Mirones]

 

 

I found this "how to" video on tacking a square rigged ship

sry but i allready posted all 3parts of it allready like 1 week ago

maybe we should post it somewhere else sinc eit would fit as an place holder tutorial.

a new forum section when early acces starts where all tips and trick stuff will go.

[maturin]

I will test the two tacking methods will up to speed, and report back, especially if there have been changes.

 

There is no logical flaw, but it is very much against actual nautical practice. Sailors had a strict prohibition against putting the mainsail aback, so you would only attempt such a maneuver on battle sails.

 

By analogy, the logically superior method of shuffling a deck of card is to throw them into the air so they shuffle randomly. But it's messy, impractical and awkward-looking.

[Johny Reb]

I also would like to test this. It does make logical sense but if it was begun from a tack with a greater angle then I would think it shouldn't work as that would be a hove to sail setting. In ink's video he starts at a point where the foresail is all but neutralized but if you tried this on a beam reach this should not happen. It would be illogical. Will test later today.

[Belphe]

So that video shows the proper timing for Mainsail Haul (swiveling the after yards). However, the game will currently penalize you for using this realistic method, because Ink has discovered a superior, unrealistic method.

 

If you switch over your main and mizzen yards too early (even from a beam reach or 90-degree wind angle), you will actually get through the tack faster, because the upwind turn will be faster.

 

In real life, you don't want to have any backing sails until the last minute, because you would bleed off all your speed and possibly not even reach the eye of the wind with any momentum left. Furthermore, an easy tack relies on ordering Mainsail Haul at a very precise moment. When the ship is just in the eye of the wind, one half of the maintopsail will be becalmed, and one half will be aback. This means that you don't have to really haul it around at all; it will fly to the other side on its own. If you miss this moment, bracing it around will be slow and exhausting work.

 

Here is Ink's video where he tacks from only 2 knots. I remember that the devs' stated aims for the tacking system were that it should require speed and timing. The video proves that neither are required:

 

Possible ideas for (mostly scripted) fixes:

A heavy increase for the braking force of all sails being aback, so that the ship slows to a halt before even reaching the wind.

Making the yard control speed depend on the wind angle (hauling on the braces is slower when fighting the wind)

If your ship hits the eye of the wind with low speed, it artificially stop turning.

 

Edit: And one more tip for tacking, enable manual skipper before you hit the eye of the wind, so your fore yards don't come over automatically. That is just a problem with the autoskipper.

Can I still enable the data display regarding wind and angles of sails using the console? If so, how?

Thanks!

[Ink]

nope - it was a dedicated build, now its gone

[maturin]

It's a shame we can't display at least the stats with a console command. Watching the numbers really taught you the sailing and revealed a lot of imbalances.

 

That sort of information would be a terrible drag on the gameplay ultimately, however. It would EVE-ify it.

[Johny Reb]

Tested Ink's method this morning from a beam reach, starting at around 9 knots. I neutralized the fore stack as long as I could and and backed the main stack immediately as Ink did. It tacked great! I never went below 2 knots and this was with the Vic.

[maturin]

 

Ink's video is based on the old testing build. It had exaggerated stationary turning speed.

 

But his method works just as well at 9 knots, in the current build with the new stationary turning speed values.

 

Tested Ink's method this morning from a beam reach, starting at around 9 knots. I neutralized the fore stack as long as I could and and backed the main stack immediately as Ink did. It tacked great! I never went below 2 knots and this was with the Vic.

And this makes Maturin a sad doctor.

 

Just did the same test myself. Tacking through 180 degrees with an initial speed (on a bream reach) of 9.2-9.5 knots.

 

Time required using Ink's unrealistic method (switching the main and mizzen 90 degrees too early)..........2:12

Time required using the proper method that would work in real life............................................................2:55-3:11

 

That means that people who tack "correctly" will be penalized by as much as 30%. That's huge. The devs promised us realistic tacking, but if we tack realistically now, we are just letting the enemy catch and kill us. The stated goal was tacking that requires speed and proper timing. As it turns out, both are irrelevant.

 

I would recommend trying out the following tweak:

Increase the deceleration force of the main and mizzen sails. (Only the braking force, so these sails will decelerate you faster, but not increase sternway speed.) As an added bonus, this would make heaving to a little easier, and model the historical reluctance to back the mainsail.

[Hadar]

Nautical practice is also based on the fact that masts (and rigging) where built and fastened in the ships to take forces from behind and from the sides, not from the front, meaning that Ink's method probably would have damaged a ships masts and riggings.

[Barberouge]

 + if consider the positions of sails in relation to the wind logically - we see no logical flaws in it. 

Backward pressure provides the correct vector of force + turns the ship in the right direction. He uses that logic to make a turn while stationary. 

 

 I would recommend trying out the following tweak:

Increase the deceleration force of the main and mizzen sails. (Only the braking force, so these sails will decelerate you faster, but not increase sternway speed.) As an added bonus, this would make heaving to a little easier, and model the historical reluctance to back the mainsail.

 

Agreed. Building speed before a tack should enable to get directly upwind (0°) faster. If we get to 0° faster, we move less backwards thus the tack is more efficient. If speed wasn't built, during the time necessary to reach 0°, we should have lost a lot of ground (backward movement).

 

 

We can reach 0° without speed by using the power of the main and mizzen sails only. This should be the worst case possible, it should take a lot more time and we should loose a lot more ground. We've been speaking about this case here, also see the whole discussion, especially,

 

  tacking usually fails one of two ways, not enough speed to get head a weather, or improper yard management while head to weather or before the main is filling.  But with the standard wind scenario in the game and the speeds the ships are averaging unless the yard management fails it is unlikely that the tack would ever fail, just simply become slower.

 

 

Overall, the squares aren't powerful enough, both in translation (forward or backward) and rotation power. Also I feel the backward rudder is too powerful.