Crafting Overhaul

[B4NGSPL4T]

A crafting overhaul has been a long time coming. With the patch of 9.3 the durabilities of ships have been reduced, thus putting crafters back in high demand. This post is a suggestion to overhaul the crafting system, as well as other affiliated aspects such as Ship Yards.

Please take some time to read it all and let me know what you think. Your suggestions/feedback will be what forms this suggestion, and with any luck the developers will take note of it.



Ship Yards:
Ship Yards are places where ships are repaired and built The addition of these will create centralised common ports for shipbuilders of particular nations to use in harmony. The goal of this is to boost inter-nation economy co-operation as well as making particular ports more valuable to players than others, spurring them to defend them heavily.
 

Sizes:
Ship Yards come in 5 different sizes, allowing crafter to build different size ships. To build a ship in port there must be a Ship yard of the appropriate size of above, for example, to build a Surprise the Ship yard must be Size 2 or above. The size of the Ship Yards are port specific, and initially all ports start off with Ship Yards of size 0, other than nation capitals that start off at Size 1. The sizes are outlined below:

 

Size 0: Lynx, Cutter, Privateer

Size 1: Pickle, Yacht, Brig, Navy Brig, Snow, Mercury
Size 2: Cerberus, Surprise, Renommee, Belle Poule, Frigate, Pirate Frigate, Trincomalee
Size 3: Constitution, Bellona, Pavel
Size 4: Victory, Santisima

Construction:
As default a port will have 1 Ship Yard, Size 0 for a non capital and Size 1 for a Capital. However, a total of 4 Ship yards can be constructed within any given port (perhaps less in smaller ports). The cost to create a new Ship Yard would be the following:

Size 0: 200,000 Gold, 500 Planks

After this, the new Ship Yard can be upgraded (see below) incrementally up to Stage 4. With multiple Ship yards players can craft up to 4 ships simultaneously, providing the player has a large enough work force.

Upgrading:

Ship Yards can be upgraded through communal contributions. Players contribute resources and gold to upgrade the size of the Ship Yard, a costly endeavour that requires co-operation between players. The cost of upgrading shipyards raises exponentially every time, requiring gold to pay workers for the construction as well as the resources required to build the Ship yard. The resources required start of relatively simple, with the addition of other resource requirements the higher the size. A rough estimation of cost is shown below:

Size 0 > Size 1: 600,000 Gold, 1,000 Planks, 200 Ropes and Blocks

Size 1 > Size 2: 1,800,000 Gold, 2,000 Planks, 400 Ropes and Blocks, 200 Stone Blocks

Size 2 > Size 3: 5,400,000 Gold, 4,000 Planks, 800 Ropes and Blocks, 400 Stone Blocks, 200 Iron Fittings

Size 3 > Size 4: 16,200,000 Gold, 8,000 Planks, 1600 Ropes and Blocks, 800 Stone Blocks, 400 Iron Fittings, 200 Cables and Hawsers
 

Upgrading the Ship Yards not only take resources, but also time. This is of course due to the work required to expand and construct the Ship Yard.
 

Size 0 > Size 1: 24 hours

Size 1 > Size 2: 60 hours

Size 2 > Size 3: 150 hours

Size 3 > Size 4: 375 hours

 

Captured Ports & Repairs:

If a port is captured the Ship Yard is damaged in the battle and requires repairs before it can be used. The port must be repaired before any construction can continue or begin. If a port is captured while a ship is being crafted, the crafter may cancel the construction of the ship and retrieve a % of the resources back depending on what stage of construction the ship is in, and may even be able to tow the ship if it has reached a sufficient stage of construction.

The repair cost of the Ship yard is 20% of what was required to last upgrade the port, as shown below:

 

Repair Size 0: 20,000 Gold, 100 Planks

Repair Size 1: 60,000 Gold, 200 Planks, 40 Ropes and Blocks

Repair Size 2: 180,000 Gold, 400 Planks, 80 Ropes and Blocks, 40 Stone Blocks

Repair Size 3: 540,000 Gold, 800 Planks, 160 Ropes and Blocks, 80 Stone Blocks, 40 Iron Fittings

Repair Size 4: 1,620,000 Gold, 1,600 Planks, 320 Ropes and Blocks, 160 Stone Blocks, 80 Iron Fittings, 40 Cables and Hawsers

 

Workers:
To build a ship it requires a skilled labour force, the larger and better trained the labour force the fast and better the ships being produced are. A players crafting level will determine how large their labour force is, as well as how skilled. Workers also need to be paid for their work, adding in the requirement of gold in to ship building.

Labour Force Size:

The labour force size depends on the players crafting level, the larger the force the quicker ships can be produced, this means smaller ships can be crafted quicker by more experienced crafters. Below shows the breakdown for the size of the labour force per level bracket:

Level 0-4: 100 Workers

Level 5-9: 200 Workers

Level 10-14: 400 Workers

Level 15-19: 600 Workers

Level 20-24: 1,200 Workers

Level 25-29: 2,400 Workers
Level 30-34: 4,800 Workers
Level 35-39: 9,600 Workers
Level 40-44: 19,200 Workers
Level 45-50: 38,400 Workers
 

Labour Force Skill:
The skill of the labour force is a vital factor in the construction of ships. Shoddy workmanship produces ships of a much lower quality than that of a skilled labourer. Within the Labour Force level brackets there is a system in place that shows the efficiency of the labourers hired. As you expand your labour force the new labourers come in untrained and inexperienced, only through training and on hand experience can they improve their skills. A breakdown of how the system is below:

Stage 1: 20% Trained = -0% Labour Hours

Stage 2: 40% Trained = -20% Labour Hours

Stage 3: 60% Trained = -40% Labour Hours

Stage 4: 80% Trained = -60% Labour Hours
Stage 5: 100% Trained = -80% Labour Hours

These stages are implemented within the level brackets, for example, a crafting level of 0 gives you a labour force of 100 men but at -0% Labour Hours. This means for every 1 hour it takes to build a ship it takes 1 hour, as the labour force is not trained. A crafting level of 13 however gives you a labour force of 400 men that are trained to 80%, meaning that every hour it takes to build a ship it takes 0.4 hours. For example, If Ship X takes 1,000 hours to build, and it is being built by a crew that is 60% trained, this means it will take only 600 hours to construct.

Note: It could get a lot more complicated here, especially if you see the additional crew on level up as an addition to the existing crew that is already 100% trained. However the above is a much more simplified alternative that does not have huge consequences.

Labour Force Wages:

A labour force needs paying for their services, however they should only be paid when they are actually working. If a ship requires a certain amount of crew to construct it, the crew required is subtracted from the pool of available workers. Only the workers that are in use get paid. For example, if Ship X requires 2,400 labourers and takes 300 hours to build, it will cost you 0.25 gold per worker per hour, brining the cost of wages to 180,000 gold.
 

Ship Construction Times:

Similar to the new delivery system, ships can be built in 3 different stages of speed. Using Ship X that requires 2,400 labourers and 300 hours to build, below is a break down:

Option 1: 2,400 Labourers + 300 hours
Option 2: 3,600 Labourers (50% increase in force) + 240 (20% reduction from base) hours
Option 3: 5,400 Labourers (125% increase in force) + 200 (33.3% reduction from base) hours

 

The knock on effect of this system has two penalties. One, is that the extra labourers being used increases the labour force wages. Two, is that if the crafter uses the extra labourers then they are tied up building Ship X.
 

 

Commissions:
In a port players can set up a commission for a ship to be built. They can define what ship they would like built, the amount of permanent and normal upgrades, which inbuilt characteristics as well as how much they would like to pay for the ship (including resources). At this point, just like with contracts, the amount of money and offered resources are deducted from the player and held in the port. A crafter can accept the commission in the port where it was made, as long as they have the resources, labour force, required level, and gold. The commissioner can retract the commission at any stage as long as a crafter has not accepted the commission.
 
 
Build Duration:
Instant building should be a thing of the past. Ships realistically took years, even decades to plan and build. Of course, we cannot have this in a game, so it needs to be scaled appropriately. Below are the current build times for ships:

Trader Lynx: 152 Labour Hours

Lynx: 152 Labour Hours

Privateer: 202 Labour Hours

Traders Cutter: 224 Labour Hours

Cutter: 224 Labour Hours

Pickle: 251 Labour Hours

Traders Brig: 346 Labour Hours
Brig: 346 Labour Hours
Navy Brig: 372 Labour Hours

Traders Snow: 396 Labour Hours
Snow: 396 Labour Hours
Mercury: 468 Labour Hours

Cerberus: 517 Labour Hours
Renommee: 541 Labour Hours
Surprise: 589 Labour Hours

Belle Poule: 882 Labour Hours
Frigate: 882 Labour Hours

Trincomalee: 979 Labour Hours

Constitution: ???
St Pavel: 1367 Labour Hours
Bellona: 1465 Labour Hours
Victory: 1708 Labour Hours
Santisima: ???

 

The ship build duration uses these base hours at a ratio of 2 to 1 real world time. While it may seem harrowing to begin with bear with me and I will explain it, let's say you would like to build a Trincomalee. It would take an untrained labour force 979 in game hours (489.5 real world hours) to build it, however with a 100% trained experienced crew it would only take 195.8 hours (97.9 real world hours). This is all at the use of Option 1, using the minimal amount of crew to build a Trincomalee. With Option 2 it would reduce the time further to 156.64 hours (78.32 real world hours), and with Option 3 it would reduce the time to 130.40 hours (65.20 real world hours). 

So realistically, with the range of time required to build a Trincomalee ranges between 489.5 hours (20.3 days) and 65.20 hours (2.6 days), averaging out at 97.9 hours (4.07 days). This combined with the ability to craft 4 ships simultaneously creates a slightly longer construction duration, however still retains a good level of productivity.
 
 

Note: This is a work in progress, feedback is very much appreciated.

Edited December 17, 2015 by B4NGSPL4T

[admin]

A

Years to build is derived from labor hours

There is no difference between

• Waiting three days and clicking once =
• Clicking once and waiting for 3 days.

I am sure you will see why first method is better from the game design perspective.

 

B

Regarding laborers we don't know: 9 women wont make a baby 9 times faster - it will take 9 months anyway. 

We give you enough labor hours (laborers) to make a ship in best time. Adding more laborers will not make ships made faster

 

Adding micromanagement by forcing you to level up number of laborers, or shipyards will make it more complex yet we don't see the data to support the fact that more complex system is needed.

 

Based on what I have seen you can't even buy a crafted pickle. And you offer to make it more complex and force people to level up shipyards, labor force and such.

You can make 4 pickles a day (you offer ability to craft 4 ships simultaneously) yet every day i see questions in chat "where i can buy a pickle". 

 

 

The rest of the proposals are interesting to think about 

[Fellvred]

I like the idea of the shipyards and being able to upgrade them but I think there needs to be a mixtures of different shipyards already made on the map (national/regional capitals?)  each nation can then make the choice of shipyards and ports to concentrate on without stopping ships being made early on.

 

I think instant building is just going to have to be a necessary evil for now - most players are going to want continual advancement up the ship 'tree' and I'm not sure having to wait 18-24 hours to move into a new ship will add anything to the player experience. Although this might be something to look into when port and economy improvements are included further down the line.

[B4NGSPL4T]

A:

There is a big difference. Waiting 3 days and clicking once is an instant built and cannot be disrupted. With the system suggested, if a port is captured while ships are in construction it will disrupt and hault the progress. This would encourage players to attack nation ports that are known to be producing ships as well as adding a realistic element to crafting.

B:

I fail to see how your point is relevant here. We are not talking about making a baby (you need to buy me dinner first at least), by that logic it would take 500 men building a ship the same time as it takes 1,000 men... It just doesn't work.

Let say you need to make 64 rudder parts. You have 100 men available to make these parts, and it takes 10 men 1 day to make a rudder part. It would take 100 men 6.4 days to make the required rudder parts. Now lets say you hire more labourers and you have 200 men available to make rudder parts. It still takes 10 men 1 day to make a rudder part (insert your baby analogy here), however with 20 groups of 10 men instead of 10 it only takes 3.2 days to make the required parts.


Think of "Changing Rooms", it's a British TV show. In 48 hours they completely renovate a home. How do they do it so fast? More labourers.

Edited December 17, 2015 by B4NGSPL4T

[admin]

A:

There is a big difference. Waiting 3 days and clicking once is an instant built and cannot be disrupted. With the system suggested, if a port is captured while ships are in construction it will disrupt and hault the progress. This would encourage players to attack nation ports that are known to be producing ships as well as adding a realistic element to crafting.

 

 

there are the same from the game perspective  - player waits 3 days for his Santisima if all materials are prepared.

 

but

There is a big difference with performance and implementation. 

 

• Wait for 3 days (collect labor hours) and then click - requires only 1 counter that gives all players X labor hours per hour.
• Click and then wait for 3 days (construction time) - requires at least 40000 live counters if 10000 players build 4 ships each. In reality it will be even higher because Weekly users are higher than daily users and many counters will overlap. Estimate is 100,000 live timers. A lot more expensive to code, debug and maintain .

 

All systems when designed have to take into account the production cost and most importantly fixing problems cost. That is one of the reasons germany lost the WW2, their tanks were too complex to fix fast. Shermans and T-34 could be repaired in the field. Tiger had to be brought back to factory in most cases. This will be a first and last game design lesson this year

[B4NGSPL4T]

A:
I completely agree that it is a more efficient system to have players wait 3 days and click in terms of designating server resources, but realistically how much more resources would be required to achieve the player specific countdown timer? I'm not a programmer, so I wouldn't know exactly, but I can't imagine a huge amount for such a small string of code (even with 40,000 live counters).

But anyway, regardless of how it happens (wait 3 days and click or click and wait 3 days), all the other points made (i.e Labour Force, Wages, Commissions, Ship Yard etc) are still viable changes.

B:

Let me just check that I have understood you correctly. Are you telling me, that having additional labourers will in no way speed up the construction of a ship? Not even having additional labours doing repetitive jobs such as crafting ship parts, binding ropes, creating rigging, even moving resources around the shipyard to speed up accessibility. 

I completely understand that having twice the amount of people will not necessarily halve production time, this is reflected above as you can see, even with over double the amount of labourers the production time is only decreased by 33%, however it costs 115.99% more for that relatively small reduction.

Edited December 17, 2015 by B4NGSPL4T

[Johny Reb]

I like your ideas Boom but as you know already I prefer a similar structure but done through the clans.

 

With clans owning the shipyards and assigning control of those shipyards, through a ranking system, to select members would allow the devs to limit the counters, don't you think? Instead of each player having 4 timers, they only have 1. So 3000 players would be 3000 timers max.

 

Only clan members could donate money into the shipyards of the clan. Of course others could give them money to donate but the raising of shipyard levels would be primarily an internal responsibility.

 

The problem would be the lone ducks that want to be unaffiliated being upset with having a part of the game locked out from them. This is a touchy issue for sure. I would suggest that to assuage some of their concern, Shipyards can be built by individual unaffiliated players but only to the level of Brig. Essentially you are suggesting the same thing in that to raise the money for the really large yards you essentially need a community of supporters. All this works to the common goal of limiting the number of the largest ships in the game that is not arbitrarily restrictive but on top of this, it provides a reason for clans beyond a group of friends to play together. Brings meaning to them.

 

I just wonder if your labor force wages would just be to tedious. My first reaction is that a simple upgraded labor force with a one time cost would be best. As a player improves his shipyard, he must decide between making the smaller ships faster or to be able to make larger ships, but slow.

[B4NGSPL4T]

You know, as I was being pounded away in a martello tower, something hit me.

You say that having 40,000 live counters is problematic, which is simply not true. You've just added AI deliveries, that allow players to send 4 individual shipments of goods, each with their own counter. How is the counter for ship building any different?

[GrapeShot]

As a crafter I don't see the time delay between pushing the 'craft' button and the ship being created as being much of a problem. It can already be some time between receiving an order for a ship and being able to produce it. Just part of the planning and management you need to do when crafting.

I heartily dislike the idea of shipyards being clan controlled. Solo players should be able to play as well.

As for pickles not being crafted. I craft small ships for my fellow Yanks all the time. Perhaps if you didn't give them away as redeemables my business in the smaller boats would be even better.

Right now there is no trade between ports, no resource development, freighting goods between ports is too mechanical and magical, and shipyards - which are necessary to actually build boats in the real world - aren't even in the game.

Trading and shipbuilding need a lot more fleshing out in my opinion.

Edited December 18, 2015 by GrapeShot

[ulysse77]

i think a quick fix i mentionned somewhere was contract to buy ship, ie you want a ship, you put a contract like a ressources, and someone fill that contract, should be easy to do.

 

the other idea is you should be able to see outstanding contract other people have in other port.

[B4NGSPL4T]

As for pickles not being crafted. I craft small ships for my fellow Yanks all the time. Perhaps if you didn't give them away as redeemables my business in the smaller boats would be even better.

 

I'm note sure I follow you, why would pickles not be crafter? Did I miss them out in my lists or?

[GrapeShot]

Based on what I have seen you can't even buy a crafted pickle. And you offer to make it more complex and force people to level up shipyards, labor force and such.

You can make 4 pickles a day (you offer ability to craft 4 ships simultaneously) yet every day i see questions in chat "where i can buy a pickle".

I was responding to this comment.

[Johny Reb]

I don't want to hijack this conversation so ill say something to Grape and then be done with it. We can talk on TS anyways.

 

The problem with my clan idea is of course the solo players. Lots of Potbs guys who had 25 toons to run an entire shipyard by themselves aren't gonna like the idea of having to work with others. I'm still working this out.

What I've come up with so far:

Solo players could still build ships but because of the infrastructure costs it would financially limit them to smaller yards. So they can still build ships by themselves but likely not anything more than a brig.

Solo players could possibly get enough donors to help them pay for the infrastructure costs of larger shipyards but without a clan that would be exponentially more difficult.

Clans being able to govern ports would have an advantage in tax revenue that that port produces allowing them to pay for more and more infrastructure projects like shipyards and port defenses.

Unlike Booms idea, I would have shipyards that were for specific sized ships and limited to those sizes so a clan would have to decide if they even want a small shipyard to build Brigs or do they want to have shipyards for various size frigates or even SoLs. Clans would likely forgo the small shipyards in favor of making frigates and therefore would support the solo players building the smaller ships.

I have always suggested that the clan could have only a limited number of shipyards but maybe that doesn't need to be the case and an unlimited number could be allowed if the clan was able to keep up on the infrastructure.

 

We talk a lot about the number of ship models are in the game. The admin has asked us to discuss how to create a mechanic that would bring purpose to every type of ship both small and large. I assume the reason for these discussions is to promote variety in the game and bring purpose for many types of ships. Why doesn't the same apply to crafters. Why is it that the only meta game for crafters is building large first rates. I understand that being able to do that would be the pinnacle of achievement but wouldn't it be better if the economy was more diverse?

 

There should be a lot more frigates than ships of the line. Most Captains didn't sail ships of the line.

There should be a lot more traders than shipbuilders.       Most Merchants didn't build ships.

 

One last point that will hopefully help you to understand why I'm pushing this. In almost every game out there, clans are simply a place for friends to hang out and game together. The clan itself has no meaning within the game. In most games the best a clan has to offer is summed up in clan quests. Why can't this game be revolutionary and make clans and integral part of the structure of the game, giving them meaning and purpose beyond organization? My idea is just one way to do that. There are others. Clans could govern ports instead of players. (For the solo player, remember, there is nothing that stops him from starting a one man clan. This also applies to the shipyard suggestion of mine.) Clans could also be the only ones able to vote for alliances. Anyway, I'm only looking for a way to have clans more invested in the game with purpose and responsibility. I think my idea combined with Booms is an excellent way to achieve that.

[Magnum]

Too complexified

[Johny Reb]

Which part? It can't all be to complexified.

[TheAmerican]

A

Years to build is derived from labor hours

There is no difference between

• Waiting three days and clicking once =
• Clicking once and waiting for 3 days.

I am sure you will see why first method is better from the game design perspective.

 

B

Regarding laborers we don't know: 9 women wont make a baby 9 times faster - it will take 9 months anyway. 

We give you enough labor hours (laborers) to make a ship in best time. Adding more laborers will not make ships made faster

 

Based on what I have seen you can't even buy a crafted pickle. And you offer to make it more complex and force people to level up shipyards, labor force and such.

You can make 4 pickles a day (you offer ability to craft 4 ships simultaneously) yet every day i see questions in chat "where i can buy a pickle". 

 

Interesting perspective!

Edited January 10, 2016 by TheAmerican