Ship customization

[Samuel Adams]

I would like to see full boat and cannon customization. Would be a great idea to replace the cannons on your boat. Or even trading different size cannons on your boat. I want to see what you guys think.

[Johny Reb]

I believe that is their plan already.

[maturin]

I was thinking of starting a thread where we brainstorm realistic customizations, to take the place of POTBS' fittings.

 

1) Choosing deep-bellied or flatter sails (my knowledge of sail terminology is awful). The latter gives better downwind performance at the expense of close-hauled sailing, and vice verse.

2) Different weights and thicknesses of sailcloth could also be an option. Tougher sails can be used in high winds, but suffer in light airs, and vice verse. I'm not sure how realistic this is, though. Ships might carry full sets of both.

 

 

There are all manner of gun upgrades possible, but they present gameplay issues since there is no downside or tradeoff for flintlocks. Everyone would use them, and a ship would not be considered PvP ready until they were installed.

[Alex Connor]

I would like to see full boat and cannon customization. Would be a great idea to replace the cannons on your boat. Or even trading different size cannons on your boat. I want to see what you guys think.

For an example of what you could do with cannon customisation, the HMS Glatton of 1795 started life as an Indiaman before being purchased by the RN. Typically she would have been armed with 28 12lb or 9lb guns but the navy fitted her out with 56 carronades, 68lbers on the maindeck and 42lbers on the upper.

 

The broadside from this armament outweighs the Victory's (albeit with much less range). 

 

Glatton is notable for having attacked alone a french squadron of 6 ships, 4 frigates (one of them a 74 gun 3rd rate cut down into a 50 gun frigate), a brig and a cutter. Despite being half dismasted Glatton's massive firepower caused the french squadron to flee and Glatton pursued them until they reached port. The brig sunk in port from damage received in the battle and the survivors all had damage.

 

I would love to fit out an Indiaman this way and go bait gankers

[Alex Connor]

I was thinking of starting a thread where we brainstorm realistic customizations, to take the place of POTBS' fittings.

 

1) Choosing deep-bellied or flatter sails (my knowledge of sail terminology is awful). The latter gives better downwind performance at the expense of close-hauled sailing, and vice verse.

2) Different weights and thicknesses of sailcloth could also be an option. Tougher sails can be used in high winds, but suffer in light airs, and vice verse. I'm not sure how realistic this is, though. Ships might carry full sets of both.

 

 

There are all manner of gun upgrades possible, but they present gameplay issues since there is no downside or tradeoff for flintlocks. Everyone would use them, and a ship would not be considered PvP ready until they were installed.

Simply being able to switch guns could replace the cannon fittings. Cannon and carronades in different calibers, short and long barreled cannon etc. Possibly keep flintlocks and open sights as attachments, alternatively they might only be found on newer cannon designs.

 

I'd prefer different rigging options over sail fittings, royals, studding sails and the like as options. More sails requires more crew to use them effectively, ships like Indiamen might not carry all types or have a smaller overall rig to save on crew costs. Other options could include copper sheathed hulls (allowing ships to remain at sea for longer before losing speed from marine growth fouling the underside) or wood sheathed hulls (cheaper than copper but less effective).

 

PotBS had an interesting system but some of the options were not very realistic, increased damage fittings, racebuilt hulls on existing ships etc and Naval Action can do better. 

[Johny Reb]

Well I think it could be split in three different directions.

 

First, how the ship is built and second, what you can add or change after the ship launches, and third the consumables.

 

I think when the ship is built you choose the quality of material used and its outfitting.

So, for the things that cant be changed you would have,

 Quality of wood for the hull and masts.

 Quality of Canvas

 Copper bottomed or not

 

What can be added or changed later.

 gun types and caliber

 Sights on guns

 Improved rigging

 Improved helm

 Spyglass qualities

 Crew hammocks

 

Consumables

 Powder types

 Repair kit quality

 Cannon ball quality

[Ink]

There are all manner of gun upgrades possible, but they present gameplay issues since there is no downside or tradeoff for flintlocks. Everyone would use them, and a ship would not be considered PvP ready until they were installed.

I think in this case there is a place for total shot weight, I mean, relation between calibre of gun and weight of shot is not in favor of first, also put here the weight of larger guns and your sailing and fighting abilites will be restricted due to increasing of total weight of the ship and/or also limited ammo

[Alex Connor]

Well I think it could be split in three different directions.

 

First, how the ship is built and second, what you can add or change after the ship launches, and third the consumables.

 

I think when the ship is built you choose the quality of material used and its outfitting.

So, for the things that cant be changed you would have,

 Quality of wood for the hull and masts.

 Quality of Canvas

 Copper bottomed or not

 

What can be added or changed later.

 gun types and caliber

 Sights on guns

 Improved rigging

 Improved helm

 Spyglass qualities

 Crew hammocks

 

Consumables

 Powder types

 Repair kit quality

 Cannon ball quality

 

I think apart from hull construction many of these could be changed after the ship is built. For example you could replace the masts and sails in a refit, or copper sheath the hull. Gives many aspects to shipbuilding though (really this could be a thread on its own).

 

First the shipbuilder must pick a design. Next, they select and purchase the wood for construction. Oak is the traditional type but there are many options. Live Oak is slightly denser and tougher than normal oak and grows in curved shapes ideal for ship frames, but it is rarer and more expensive. Then there is spruce and fir, softwoods that are much cheaper than oak but not as strong and much more prone to decay. A ship built of softwood will be considerably cheaper, but will wear out more rapidly and have a shorter lifespan. Shipyards in tropical climates like India will use locally available Teak instead of the Oak that only grows in colder climates. Teak is an excellent wood for shipbuilding, much the same in quality to oak. Different wood types could be used for frames and planking, live oak frames and oak planks for example. 

 

Other materials are of course required for shipbuilding, mainly iron for fittings, cordage for rigging and canvas for sails. If these are player made there might be some variance in quality, depending on the skill of the craftsmen hired (this could also apply to building the ship itself).

 

Once a ship is in the water it can be armed, provisioned and is ready for a captain.

 

Different shipyards could pick up their own reputations for quality. At one end of the scale there would be ships built from oak and live oak by master shipwrights using high quality fittings, rigging and sails, copper sheathed hulls, equipped with brand new cannon and sold supplied with well preserved provisions. And then you have a fir built ship with construction supervised by that shipwright whose vessels keep mysteriously sinking in calm weather. Shoddy fittings, weak rigging and canvas, no sheathing, old worn out cannon brought second hand and at best supplied with some half salted beef and stale water. Worlds apart in both quality and price, and yet they could be built to the same design.

 

And every level of quality in between. Another shipyard might have a reputation for building good serviceable vessels that don't cost the earth.

[Thomas Blackwell]

Should there be an option to copper plate the hulls of vessels prior to the late 1700's? Would it be an option for all navies or just England?

[Johny Reb]

Should there be an option to copper plate the hulls of vessels prior to the late 1700's? Would it be an option for all navies or just England?

Since this is only a loosely historical game then I'd say that it would have to be an option for all players regardless of Nation so that one nation wouldn't have a decided advantage over another.

 

Alex,

I considered that things like masts could be replaced after the fact but I chose to think about adjustments that wouldn't take a major overhaul.

 

The original question was how to replace the Potbs mods with something else in NA so I chose only to list those things that were easily outfitted. I liked your post. I have advocated often for different quality materials to be used as a way to bring variety to ships.

[Alex Connor]

Well thanks.

 

I did like the system in PotBS, it held a lot of potential and depth. Somewhat limited by the stacking penalties and the exact mods themselves though. In the end almost everyone ended up using the same setup. If NA is to go down the same lines then there are errors to be avoided.

 

Although I wouldn't necessarily want to recreate the exact system and mods from PotBS there are some obviously similar ones that NA could benefit from. Sail modifications for example. Royals are the 4th square sails on each mast, some ships carried them and others didn't. They will increase the vessels speed in any direction up to about 100° off the wind direction. As far as penalties go Royals increase the load on the mast and thus chance of failure if the mast is hit or supporting rigging damaged (this penalty goes away if they are furled for battle). Quite a lot like Runner's Rigs then.

 

Studding sails perform in much the same way as PotBS. Increased downwind speed, losing effectiveness outside that angle and if not furled they would actually start to blanket more useful sails and cause a speed loss as the ship gets closer to the wind. Same penalties as Royals.

 

Some ships would also be able to carry Skysails (5th squaresail on each mast), although that's rarer than Royals. Carrying more staysails and jibs would increase speed in beam reach and close haul. All these would also increase the manpower required to effectively handle the sails, which for a warship is less men for the guns and for a merchantman a bigger crew and thus more expenses. Masts could be reinforced, and separately heavier canvas used for sails, meaning the sails won't blow out and tear to shreds as easily when damaged.

 

This would give 6 different configurations (7 if you include no modifications), each with its own benefits and drawbacks, and being able to pick any 2 from the above would provide useful variety. Changing them around could be done in harbor or even at sea assuming you're carrying the needed spars etc and are prepared to drop sails and sit there until the change is complete.

 

Repairing masts is a little trickier to balance realism and gameplay. Although spare topmasts and spars can be carried, the lower mast itself could not, and even if you fished the original back out the water getting the mast back up and bracing it to a suitable strength would be nearly impossible. The ideal solution would be having jury rigs, replacing the lower mast with a topmast and a smaller sailplan. This might be a pain to model on every ship, although by their nature jury rigs are not matched to the rest of the ships rigging so it might be possible to use just a couple of different jury mast models between all the ships in game. 

 

Alternatively repairing masts at sea might have to be one of those acceptable compromises. Somethings that does need to change though, the masts themselves should be tougher, I've seen them appear to fall on a single hit in the gameplay videos (especially with the 1st rate battles, perhaps all the ships are using the same mast strength value?). Also, any kind of rigging repairs should require dropping sails, if you bring down a mast of a pursued or pursuing ship they can't just repair it as they go. And of course to make all but the most basic repairs you would need to be carrying spare spars, sails and cordage.

 

Could even cut down on dismasting as a tactic if taking a dismasted prize mean sitting vulnerable for an agonizing length of time while the prize crew gets a jury rig up

[maturin]

We might also want to focus on customization that require no 3D model adjustments. That's a huge amount of work that demands a big design commitment to customization from the devs.

[Johny Reb]

I think only the copper bottom would need a model adjustment. The other stuff wouldn't have to be modeled IMO.

[maturin]

I was referring to the idea about setting royals and skysails, which would clearly need model adjustments.

[Marion van Ghent]

2) Different weights and thicknesses of sailcloth could also be an option. Tougher sails can be used in high winds, but suffer in light airs, and vice verse. I'm not sure how realistic this is, though. Ships might carry full sets of both.

 

Very common in fact, though ships wouldn't carry two (or more) full sets. Storm canvas generally wouldn't include topgallants or higher, for example, since those sails would be furled (or even brought down to deck, masts and all) for a stretch of heavy weather.

 

Needless to say switching out sails -- at least the square sails -- would take a goodly amount of time and effort. Storm staysails are comparatively easy; take the regular ones down, bring the storms up from the sail room, lace them on, and sail away.

 

I think apart from hull construction many of these could be changed after the ship is built. For example you could replace the masts and sails in a refit, or copper sheath the hull. Gives many aspects to shipbuilding though (really this could be a thread on its own).

While you could copper an existing hull, it was very, very expensive and time-consuming: all iron fittings needed to be replaced with more expensive bronze, else very rapid chemical reactions would take place between the iron, copper, and seawater, creating acids that could eat through a ship's bottom in as little as a couple months. Clearly it was considered a worthwhile expense, though.

 

Teak is an excellent wood for shipbuilding, much the same in quality to oak.

 

Teak actually seems to have been better than oak as far as being rot-resistant. There are period reports of teak ships being used in the Indian Ocean for upwards of 70 years without needing any major timbers replaced.

 

Royals are the 4th square sails on each mast, some ships carried them and others didn't. They will increase the vessels speed in any direction up to about 100° off the wind direction. As far as penalties go Royals increase the load on the mast and thus chance of failure if the mast is hit or supporting rigging damaged (this penalty goes away if they are furled for battle).

It's a common misconception -- one in place even in the age of sail -- that "more canvas = faster." There were many situations, particularly with strong winds, where too much canvas would slow a ship down significantly (increased heel, pushing the bow down into the sea, giving a weather or lee helm that requires the rudder to be displaced from centre to combat thus adding drag). It all depends on the ship's design and conditions. In gameplay terms, that means a boost in speed for slight winds, and a penalty for higher winds.

That said, adding "extra" masts and sails to a ship model is probably not resource-effective. There are lots of stays, backstays, shrouds, etc. that would need to be added, plus modifications to the masts further down (masthead, tops/crosstrees, etc.). I think I'd rather see the investment go to studding sails, which were far more common an alteration than higher masts, serve a similar purpose, and are much easier to make a modular component.

 

Repairing masts is a little trickier to balance realism and gameplay. Although spare topmasts and spars can be carried, the lower mast itself could not, and even if you fished the original back out the water getting the mast back up and bracing it to a suitable strength would be nearly impossible. The ideal solution would be having jury rigs, replacing the lower mast with a topmast and a smaller sailplan. This might be a pain to model on every ship, although by their nature jury rigs are not matched to the rest of the ships rigging so it might be possible to use just a couple of different jury mast models between all the ships in game.

I would love to see jury rigs on damaged ships. I'm not sure how feasible it is though to model: while there is less supporting hardware to worry about, there still is some required to make it look right, and each ship would have its own attachment points. Basically a similar problem to royals and skysails, just slightly less in magnitude.

 

 

I think only the copper bottom would need a model adjustment. The other stuff wouldn't have to be modeled IMO.

Really just a texture swap. As far as modeling goes that's a piece of cake.

[Chilly Willy]

as Marion said

I would love to see jury rigs on damaged ships. I'm not sure how feasible it is though to model: while there is less supporting hardware to worry about, there still is some required to make it look right, and each ship would have its own attachment points. Basically a similar problem to royals and skysails, just slightly less in magnitude.

remember refitting masts mains and jibs cant be done in battle  but jury rig could mean the difference between defeat or the ability to escape.

would love to see the ability.
 

[Brigand]

While I would absolutely love the option to customise my ship's rigging or even its sail plan (rerigging a brig as a ship was not uncommon) and have the in-game models visually showing the changes, I don't think this is feasible.

The 'best' method to get the in-game models to show changes in rigging, sail setup, jury rigging and other customization options, would be to create modular 3D models. This would, to a large extent, require the current models to be 'redone' (I imagine large parts would be reusable, but other parts would not), the system needs to be  rewritten to accomodate modular models and all the customization options need to be modelled. Then, and this is maybe the biggest task of it all, all the different combinations of the modular models need to be checked for strange artefacts, position relative to each other, clipping issues, etc. To make matters worse, the number of combinations increase by the square of the number of options. So, in short, the amount of work required for getting this implemented is enourmous. Something you may attempt when your development budget equals that of Blizzard, but...

Seeing the great footage presented so far, it is easy to forget that the development team behind naval action is rather small. As a result, they have to very carefully manage their time and pick the features they can spend resources on. (A task in which they show admiriably good skill.) Right now, the focus is on getting the combat and sailing part of the game as good as possible and it takes up all resources. We do not know the prioritization for the next items on the development roadmap, but we do know that the 'open world' is on it. I can only imagine that developing the open world is another huge task; to get it right, they need to continue to carefully choose their focues.

Having said all that, I would still absolutely love to see the visualization of ship customization. I would be willing to pay extra for it. So maybe, if they start a kickstarter campaign (something which has been mentioned but not confirmed) they could set it as the final target for the campaign; the far fetched 'what if' goal. It would allow us all to vote with our wallet.

Cheers,
Brigand
 

[Johny Reb]

In order to have different sail plans on ships as you desire Brigand, don't they just need to model a single ship two or three times, each with a different sail plan? When you order a ship made then you just order it with the sail plan you desire. Is there a need to switch sail plans after you launch the ship?

[Brigand]

In order to have different sail plans on ships as you desire Brigand, don't they just need to model a single ship two or three times, each with a different sail plan?

 

They could model each individual ship with all the different sail plans, but the amount of models needed rapidly increases, up to the point where it requires an enormous amount of work.

 

Let's assume you have a brig. Let say you would add the following five customization options:

2 royals (on both main- and fore mast),

1 extra head sail (flying jib),

1 extra staysail between the masts and

the option to, for example, replace the spanker by a driver.

 

If you would create a new model for each possible configuration, you would need, besides the 'standard' model, an additional 5² = 25 models. And this is just for a two-masted vessel and a rather limited list of options. Just imagine how many options arise from adding customization choices to a fully rigged ship like the the HMS Victory.

 

Cheers,

Brigand

[Marion van Ghent]

I would emphasise again, in addition to what Brigand very astutely points out, it's not just a matter of adding/changing masts and sails. Most masts needed supporting rigging which requires hardware to be added to the hull itself, e.g. topgallant and/or royal backstay shelves, stays, appropriate halyards, etc.

 

And then you need to update damage models and figure out which bits of rigging go missing when certain masts and spars go by the boards.

 

That said, one small helpful note. Very often royal masts (if they were separate from the topgallant masts) would not have backstays to worry about, because they were small sails used only in light airs. And particularly in merchant service (at least prior to circa 1750 or so) sometimes even the topgallants would not have backstays, or have just one (as opposed to the standard two). So there may be some leeway here, eventually, though as a ship modeler I generally look at the issue and shake my head in despair

 

Also, some sail customisations could be fairly easy. E.g. adding a flying jib or a set of topgallant staysails. The hardware there should already be present on the model itself, and all that needs be done is adding the sails.

[maturin]

The thing is, none of these 'extra' sails will be used at all times. They are meant for particular conditions, in which there are no drawbacks for using them. So it's something that most everyone will end up buying in order to have their vessel up to snuff. I mean, why wouldn't you want royals?

 

I guess there are two main models of customization:

a) buying a base ship and being obliged to pay for all the bells and whistles that will bring it up to optimum performance

modifying your base ship with specializing features that have tradeoffs, to better define a role

 

 

the option to, for example, replace the spanker by a driver.

Wait, there's a difference?

I know there's loose-footed gaffs, and loose-footed gaffs on lanteen yards, modern gaffs, and that American mini-mast for the gaff luff rings (whatever ya call it).

[Brigand]

the option to, for example, replace the spanker by a driver.

Wait, there's a difference?

I know there's loose-footed gaffs, and loose-footed gaffs on lanteen yards, modern gaffs, and that American mini-mast for the gaff luff rings (whatever ya call it).

A driver is smaller than a spanker and usually considered better suited for stormy weather (I think). From what I gathered, it was not uncommon to have both sails on board; so that a driver could be used when the conditions asked for them (not sure though).

At any rate, it is not the best example.

 

~Brigand

[Johny Reb]

They could model each individual ship with all the different sail plans, but the amount of models needed rapidly increases, up to the point where it requires an enormous amount of work.

 

Let's assume you have a brig. Let say you would add the following five customization options:

2 royals (on both main- and fore mast),

1 extra head sail (flying jib),

1 extra staysail between the masts and

the option to, for example, replace the spanker by a driver.

 

If you would create a new model for each possible configuration, you would need, besides the 'standard' model, an additional 5² = 25 models. And this is just for a two-masted vessel and a rather limited list of options. Just imagine how many options arise from adding customization choices to a fully rigged ship like the the HMS Victory.

I see your point. I wasn't imagining so many customization options. I was thinking only two or three: normal model, Model with an added sails to the stack, model with added sails AND extra headsails.

[SerrialKiller]

Blackpowder was one type those days maybe 2 but no more you had blackpowder and fine powder. the same like the guns some guns should not fit at certain ships because they just do not fit but the option might want to be cullivern and regulars. maybe heavier pounds but depends on the ship that you sail. the main thing i would say sail develpment for clans would be nice and an couple of sail colors you can choose from like red bleu and white those where mostly the only colors. but mostly white. Most of the ships should be the same but when you build them maybe you should be allowed to change litlle things like the guns but they have to affect sailling and stuff. i would say as well

[Samuel Adams]

I would like for some really cool USEFUL cannon mods. I don't want to waste my time with crap that does not do anything. Plus having so many mods that have so many bad affects. I mean you have a bunch of mods  but have 1 really good perk and have a really bad affect.