Game mechanic that makes it difficult for pirates to maintain warships of frigate size and above

[The Sea Peoples]

I personally would like to see some game mechanic that made it difficult for pirates to maintain warships of frigate size or above.  Maybe something to do with crew and logistics.

 

I feel this way because I find it a bit pretty damaging to immersion when pirates roll around in large warships as some sort of super nation bullying warships of great nations. Having a warship of frigate size would have been atypical for a pirate.

 

Will see how the game play develops as more of the merchant side of things are implemented.

 

I would like pirates to be pirates and not the naval arm of a super nation.

[maturin]

• Inability to craft large ships

Inability to buy repair kits without smuggling

Much lower gold rewards due to splitting prizes amongst too many crew

[_Masterviolin]

I don't see why pirates would use such large ships in everyday use. SOLs may be powerful, but are too slow to catch most prey that pirates rely so heavily upon for their profit. I don't intend to surpass a Bellona in OW- i find Frigates to be the most profitable way to hunt. 

 

To summarize, It's already somewhat illogical for pirates to use SOLs. The problem i think is that players can hop from their "hunting" ship into their "pvp" ship designed for organized PVP events- in which catching the enemy is not a problem. Find a way to discourage that, and i think pirates will drop their SOLs fairly quick, or sail the seas in a large and slow ship that can rarely catch it's targets.

[Schuetzengel]

I personally would like to see some game mechanic that made it difficult for nationals to maintain warships of frigate size or above.  Maybe something to do with crew and logistics.

 

I feel this way because I find it a bit pretty damaging to immersion when nationals roll around in large warships as some sort of super nation bullying warships of great nations. Having a warship of ship of the line size would have been atypical for a national.

[maturin]

 

I don't see why pirates would use such large ships in everyday use. SOLs may be powerful, but are too slow to catch most prey that pirates rely so heavily upon for their profit. I don't intend to surpass a Bellona in OW- i find Frigates to be the most profitable way to hunt.

Besides e-peen? In the current build pirates would make more money from linefighting in SoLs than by catching merchantmen.

 

But more to the point, the ideal pirate vessel is Constitution. Which is sort of like saying that the ideal weapon for Al Qaeda is an Abrams tank.

 

 

 

I feel this way because I find it a bit pretty damaging to immersion when nationals roll around in large warships as some sort of super nation bullying warships of great nations.

Nationals bullying who? Raising the black flag is supposed to be a challenge to the whole world that says 'exterminate me mercilessly and doyour worst you rum buggers.' But to answer your questions, national SoLs are for bullying other nations. Pirates are an afterthought.

 

 

Having a warship of ship of the line size would have been atypical for a national.

Not really. The Royal Navy had dozens and dozens of SoLs. Smaller navies might have SoLs for as many as 40-50% of their warships.

[Pagan Pete]

If I could stick just ONE cannon on the bow of me Privateer, Id be a very happy pyrate indeed!

 

 

Pagan pete also draws a line at the frigate. I won't be usin anything bigger. Sailin in a connie, for example, just seems wrong to me somehow. But then, I am a role-play pirate

 

Blackbeard had the biggest pirate ship, and that were a captured and converted slave ship!

Edited October 6, 2015 by Pagan Pete

[Subutai]

I personally would like to see some game mechanic that made it difficult for nationals to maintain warships of frigate size or above.  Maybe something to do with crew and logistics.

 

I feel this way because I find it a bit pretty damaging to immersion when nationals roll around in large warships as some sort of super nation bullying warships of great nations. Having a warship of ship of the line size would have been atypical for a national.

 

TL;DR Navies of sovereign nations are powerful, their warships bully other warships, this is damaging to immersion? What?

[jezdk]

If I could stick just ONE cannon on the bow of me Privateer, Id be a very happy pyrate indeed!

 

 

Pagan pete also draws a line at the frigate. I won't be usin anything bigger. Sailin in a connie, for example, just seems wrong to me somehow. But then, I am a role-play pirate

 

Blackbeard had the biggest pirate ship, and that were a captured and converted slave ship!

there was a pirat there got his hands on at 80 canon SoL, but hi was hunted down by a comined fleet of briths and france SoL

[Schuetzengel]

Not really. The Royal Navy had dozens and dozens of SoLs. Smaller navies might have SoLs for as many as 40-50% of their warships.

 

citation needed, how many SOL'S were in the caribbean? atm the dutch alone have dozens and dozens of SoL,s what is the point of having smaller ships then if everybody is sailing the big ones?

 

potbs had done it right with the balance of the ships on os: frigates for os, 4th rates for pb. better frigs used lsb's limiting them to be spammed on the os also (trinc=sleekherc, connie=HMC)

with simple 4th rates beeing an exception and sadly smaller ships below the frigs being mostly useless or used for griefing

 

right now we can just capture free 3d rates from npc's making in the long run everything lower obsolete for future port battles. more advanced ships from npc's should never be captureable. the limit should be at simple frigates like cerberus, so people have to craft and buy surprise, renomee and belle poule which are overshadowed by the abundant cherubim.

 

and if in such a setting a pirate manages to capture a shiny, big ship from a player, he deserved it. and if he get spotted with it on the os, he will get hunted, providing game content for others.

 

so please dont advocate to limit the gameplay of an already limited faction, rather advocate to limit the use and abuse of free/cheap sol's and (heavy) frigates

[Schuetzengel]

What?

exactly

[maturin]

citation needed, how many SOL'S were in the caribbean? atm the dutch alone have dozens and dozens of SoL,s what is the point of having smaller ships then if everybody is sailing the big ones?

During campaigns? Plenty. And the Spanish built their SoLs there.

But the current prototype OW game clearly isn't balanced to represent the Caribbean, with live oak and fir and Iberian meat everywhere. The game is naval action, and that means battleships.

potbs had done it right with the balance of the ships on os: frigates for os, 4th rates for pb. better frigs used lsb's limiting them to be spammed on the os also (trinc=sleekherc, connie=HMC)

with simple 4th rates beeing an exception and sadly smaller ships below the frigs being mostly useless or used for griefing

PotBS was wrong. There was no such thing as a "port battle" IRL. There were just fleet engagements, which sometimes were coastal and only very rarely resulted in ports changing hands. And when they did, it was always due to soldiers on land.

IRL 4th and 3rd rates were used regularly on the "OW," to great effect. Making them useless except in fleet battles in nonsense.

right now we can just capture free 3d rates from npc's making in the long run everything lower obsolete for future port battles. more advanced ships from npc's should never be captureable. the limit should be at simple frigates like cerberus, so people have to craft and buy surprise, renomee and belle poule which are overshadowed by the abundant cherubim.

NPC spawns are a separate issue.

and if in such a setting a pirate manages to capture a shiny, big ship from a player, he deserved it. and if he get spotted with it on the os, he will get hunted, providing game content for others.

If pirates can't craft or buy large ships, then other restrictions aren't so important.

[William the Drake]

The question of pirates and large ships has been asked and argued many a time, with the general consensus being that pirates should probably not have the same access to SoLs as Nationals (I have advocated that pirates should be allowed to pilot SoLs, but under such restraints that it only becomes a trophy ship)

I suggest looking into some of the older pirate discussions to find some other arguments as well as similar ones presented here: Pirate Tactical Discussion and Pirates...

 

So far my favorite is the idea that SoLs will eventually become unsustainable and neglected under the care of pirates, who would simply not have the resources (or money) to keep them up. Keep them in dock and take them out only for special occasions/bragging purposes: i.e. a trophy ship.

 

there was a pirat there got his hands on at 80 canon SoL, but hi was hunted down by a comined fleet of briths and france SoL

 

Please expound upon this as you are referencing a pirate I have not heard of. Name? Time period? Location? Details man, don't leave us hanging!

 

 

potbs had done it right with the balance of the ships on os: frigates for os, 4th rates for pb. better frigs used lsb's limiting them to be spammed on the os also (trinc=sleekherc, connie=HMC)

with simple 4th rates beeing an exception and sadly smaller ships below the frigs being mostly useless or used for griefing

 

On this, I must adamantly disagree, at least from a pirate (on PotBS) standpoint, and here is why: The Case Against the Pirate "Nation"
 

[Snoopy]

I find the 'hate' for all SoL puzzling. The 74 was the backbone of all blue water navies.

If you were drafted into the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic era there was at least a 50% chance to end up on a 'liner'.

 

As long as first rates remain rare we're good.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Snoopy, it's less hate and more a wish that ships other than Bellona and up remain useful and sailed.  If the SoL is easy to get, easy to maintain, and easy to sail/keep, then all you'll see are SoLs, unless it's a new player trying to start playing the game, in which case they're going to have a really unfun time trying to dodge all of the superior ships.

 

In order to avoid having to "balance" ships (and I very certainly don't want that), we're going to have to find a way to limit SoLs.  You should be competitive in a Surprise, and the enemy should have to pony up some serious resources to field an SoL against you.

[maturin]

Honestly, it the Connie that's the problem. No one worries about getting ganked by SoLs.

[Henrik]

Seriously doubt i'd sail anything above frigate size anyways...

[Lyric]

 

 

 Having a warship of ship of the line size would have been atypical for a national.

 

This is not at all accurate as someone has already pointed out.  During the war, there was a massive shortage of frigates, but not necessarily in comparison to the amount of SOLs there were, but due to demand.  To quote Nelson, was I to die this moment, "Want of Frigates" would be found stamped on my heart.

 

Frigates ARE the ideal hunting vessels. The best in chasing, inshore patrols and protecting convoys and such. Sadly due to the sheer amount of tasks idealy assigned to a frigate, there were never enough of them.  This is why you sometimes had smaller SOLs scouting ahead of a squadron, simply because the Flag officer in charge hadn't been given any on his assignment.

At the same time, having everyone casually hunting in a victory is not something that needs to happen, for everyone's sake.

 

Addressing the "Pirates in SOLs debate", Pirates simply did NOT build their own ships. Which at the present is the only way to aqquire SOLs.  It solely depends on whether you want Pirates to be the game's hard mode.

 

If they were allowed to build SOLS, place a rather big brick wall infront of them which is the economy.  If you present them with much less resources, they will take a lot longer to aqquire SOLs.  It will also encourage them to fill out their piracy roles and look for trade routes to sabotage and contraband to ship from national ports etc.

 

On the other hand, if capturing was the only way of aqquiring bigger ships, it automatically goes into extra-realistic, hard mode due to the 1 durability rule.  A big attraction perhaps to fans of H1Z1, DayZ, Rust, Arkevolved and other survival, realism games.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Richard Bolitho

[Prater]

Honestly, it the Connie that's the problem. No one worries about getting ganked by SoLs.

 

 

Well, the last part is debatable and happened in the last iteration of OW

 

I don't see the Connie as the problem, considering it is now the slowest non-sol/non-fore-and-aft ship when going downwind or 135.  Now that Brigs and Snows go over 16 knots, there will never be a problem with them getting caught by a Coni who goes less than 15 knots.  And if you make a Live Oak Coni, you will be going 13 knots.  A Snow will be going 3.5 knots faster than you and you won't be able to stay in the wake of the Trinc.  Oh, and what is an easy way to kill Conis now?  Swarm them with a million pickles.  Because without speed mods, my pickle goes faster than the coni at 135.

 

As for Ganking.  So far the Trinc has been the main ganking ship because of its speed.  The Coni was the heavy support in the last version. 

[Henrik]

If I could stick just ONE cannon on the bow of me Privateer, Id be a very happy pyrate indeed!

 

 

Pagan pete also draws a line at the frigate. I won't be usin anything bigger. Sailin in a connie, for example, just seems wrong to me somehow. But then, I am a role-play pirate

 

Blackbeard had the biggest pirate ship, and that were a captured and converted slave ship!

Let us not/never forget Captain Bartholomew Roberts who sailed the Royal Fortune (42 guns) and wasn't afraid to attack warships of the Royal Navy! In fact he was THE most succesfull pirate in history despite popular belief!

Edited October 7, 2015 by Henrik

[droptuned]

I don't forsee myself every using a SoL either, I believe a pirate should be capped at a frigate.

 

However, how could this be balanced? Perhaps by having access to a unique class of ship, like a Xebec?

[Prater]

Currently, I think it will be hard for Pirates to craft any ship that requires Gold.  I have heard that there are 2 pirate ports that produce Gold and they are always bought out.  The Frigate really needs to be taken from the store for nationals and pirates.  Anything above the Brig should be crafted and npc store ships should be very expensive..