Historical Flags.

[mattebubben]

Currently many of the Flags are not correct / historical id like to summ up (with your help)

wich ones are inccorect and what the correct options would be.

 

First lets take the Nordic flags.

 

The Current Flag used for Denmark-Norway is the Danish flag wich is correct mostly but the Naval flag had a slightly different design.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcPbVc0k8DiKKJjqI1aGKHDzwgCDk2oOpIQjtxYX2hxi70Pd0E

The red color was slightly darker then the "normal" danish flag and the design was not the standard "square" shape but had a swallow tail.

 

The Flag used for sweden is some kind of "modern" royal family flag with the Coat of arms of sweden on it.

 

And even its design seems to be inccorect since the "correct" royal flag would have the coats of arms on a white bakround in the center of the swedish flag.

 

But even so those flags are "Royal flags" much like the Union Jack and would not be carried on ships unless members off the royal family was present.

 

The correct Swedish naval flag would be the following.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Naval_Ensign_of_Sweden.svg/320px-Naval_Ensign_of_Sweden.svg.png

 

Now done with the Nordic countries lets go somewhere warmer.

 

Spain.

 

Spain had different naval flags depending on the time.

 

from 1701-1785 they had the following Naval flag.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Pabell%C3%B3n_sencillo_de_la_Armada_de_Espa%C3%B1a_1701_1785.svg/320px-Pabell%C3%B3n_sencillo_de_la_Armada_de_Espa%C3%B1a_1701_1785.svg.png

 

With the Following flag used for the Spanish overseas territories (colonies)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Flag_of_Cross_of_Burgundy.svg/320px-Flag_of_Cross_of_Burgundy.svg.png

 

And after 1785 they had the following Naval flag (might have been used for national flag not sure) (what is currently in the game)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Flag_of_Spain_%281785-1873_and_1875-1931%29.svg/320px-Flag_of_Spain_%281785-1873_and_1875-1931%29.svg.png

 

Then France again with several different flags depending on the time frame.

 

First the French Kingdom from the 1365-1792 and then 1814-1830

 

national flag.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Pavillon_royal_de_France.svg/320px-Pavillon_royal_de_France.svg.png

 

and Naval flag

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Naval_Ensign_of_the_Kingdom_of_France.svg/320px-Naval_Ensign_of_the_Kingdom_of_France.svg.png

 

and yes that is a "white flag" xD

 

Then from 1792-1815 and then 1830-present the French Republic

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Civil_and_Naval_Ensign_of_France.svg/320px-Civil_and_Naval_Ensign_of_France.svg.png

 

And then For the dutch that also have incorrect flags.

 

Currently they have the "Modern" Dutch flag (Netherlands)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/320px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png

 

.

While the correct flag used for the dutch republic between 1572-1795 would be "The Prince's Flag".

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Prinsenvlag.svg/320px-Prinsenvlag.svg.png

 

So thats something they should correct.

 

Or make it the Batavian republic 1795-1806 (id say not though since the dutch naval power of that time was much weaker and it was a very short period)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Flag_of_the_Batavian_Republic.svg/320px-Flag_of_the_Batavian_Republic.svg.png

 

The British Flag is mostly correct so i wont bring it up (right now atleast)

 

The US naval flag should probably be a "Stars and stripes" with 13-15 stars (13 stars pre 1795 and 15 stars post 1795)

 

There are several different different designs around that time.

 

Please correct any errors ive made in this thread / add more info this is what i could find in my short search.

 

And do you think they should use historical flags and if not why?.

Edited August 3, 2015 by mattebubben

[marecek05]

I agree with the proposal, however I doubt it is high on a list of priorities. Would be nice though.

 

And to correct you further, French Republic 1790-1794 used the white flag with Tricolour canton. Although it was in use the shortest from possible French designs as it contains both the royalist and republican elements and as such seems most fitting to the unspecific period of the game.

 

Ship with the ensign>

 

[Snoopy]

I like correct flags of course but as you lined out there was a lot of change over time and NA would need to be set to a specific year or narrow time frame to determine 'correctness' and I can see how devs might be reluctant to do this - it means work spawning work or opening the door for a whole swath of anachronisms:

You can't have a pre-1801 (see below) flag flying from the Trincomalee (unless you rename her to one of her older sisters) - to address this do you allow multiple flags to be flown - which one do you pick in a battle or do you allow french royalists to fight alongside ships flying the tricolore?

[mattebubben]

As stated u cant be 100% historical correct unless u set a certain date and only allow ships of those years.

 

But thats not what im suggesting...

 

Just the Flags that would be use during that era.

and since this game is very much a what if game so id say the flags with the widest span should be used.

 

For for example id give the French the Flags of the kingdom of france since they are correct from the 14th century up to 1792 and post 1814 while the flags of the french Republic or french empire (different types of the tricolore) only cover a very small timeframe (Different Tricolores where used between 1790-1815 and after 1830)

 

 

So for france id say kingdom of france.

 

For Spain it could be either the Pre 1785 or Post 1785 each one would work very well.

 

But For the Dutch Swedish and Danish the Flags are pretty clear (unless they want to use the Swedish-Norway flag post 1814 but since its Denmark-Norway in this game that would not work xD)

 

For the US the 13 or 15 star flags should be used.

 

And since this is a what if scenario id say make it the Pre Napoleonic flags in a what if the french revolution never happend scenario.

 

Makes the most sense since its centerd in the Americas and pirates are still around.

 

And while Flags are not a "major" priority changing the flag design should require very little effort/time.

And they could start with just changing the flag textures and then they could change the flag models later on (such as the Swallow tail for the Danish and the triple tailed swedish flag)

Edited August 3, 2015 by mattebubben

[marecek05]

To be honest as a French player, I would not like a clear white flag for France in game. The sheer amount of running/surrenderring French stereotypes would break the servers alone .

 

Also to just discard revolution, which is probably the most important social event within the game period would be in my opinion quite limiting.

 

However, it is also not possible to discard the Kingdom of France under Bourbon regime. Therefore I would like to propose the "Republic Naval Ensing" as it has both ties to the Kingdom and also to the Republic/Empire.

[mattebubben]

if they want to avoid the French naval enseign (white flag)

they could either use the French Merchant navy flag.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Naval_Flag_of_the_Kingdom_of_France_%28Civil_Ensign%29.svg/1200px-Naval_Flag_of_the_Kingdom_of_France_%28Civil_Ensign%29.svg.png

 

Or being Ahistorical they could just use the Royal standard or the national flag.

 

But i dont see a problem with using the Kingdom of france Naval flag =P.

 

i think the trolls would get over it.

 

and also while the French revolution and the napoleonic wars might have been the most important significant even during the last 2 decades of the 18 century and the first half of the 19th century i would not say it was the most important event between 1700-1815.

 

Seeing as there will be ships as early as before 1700 the Pre republic flag would make more sense.

 

 

And the map seems to be between 1784-1797.

 

atleast if it wants to be "semi-correct"

Edited August 3, 2015 by mattebubben

[marecek05]

Merchant ensign wouldn't do :-).

 

Royal standard is too big a step to be honest. I would rather use one of the three real existing ones. Afterall even the current one is ok in the end.

 

However, if the Royal ensign gets used, what would the surrender flag look like?

 

And for the discussion's sake, what would you say is the most important event in 1700-1815 for the western world? Important meaning - affected the lives of most people in that period.

[mattebubben]

its pretty much impossible to name the "most" important event.

 

There are a Number of wars the Contributed to alot of changes in the world and europe.

 

But for causing the Chain Reaction that very much lead to the American revolution that then Contributed id say the Seven Years war was very important.

 

But the War of the Spanish Succession lead to alot of change and restructuring in europe.

 

And as to a very important non war event the Industrial revolution started in 1760s.

 

and what do you mean surrender flag?

 

and i also believe that the Merchant Navy was also used by the colonies and smaller colonial warships.

Edited August 3, 2015 by mattebubben

[marecek05]

By surrender flag I mean, currently if you surrender a ship, or capture a ship, the prize flies white flag (as an anachronism).

 

You wouldn't see L'Ocean, Bucentaure, Temeraire or Pallas flying merchant flag. It would be one of the three.

[mattebubben]

There are currently flags that a ship of that navy would never use aswell.

 

For example the current Dutch or Swedish Flags.

 

And they could simply go to Striking the flag (either lowering the flag or removing the flag)

 

Or they could Place the Flag of the enemy (of the surrendering ship) above the flag of the surrendering ships flag (like was done to signal the capture of an enemy ship)

 

The White flag as a term of surrender (in modern use) did happen untill 1899 (Hague Convention I)

 

But if you dont want the just all white flag they could use the flag with the fleur-de-lis on white field.

 

That flag was sometimes used for smaller ships (frigates etc) but the only flag allowed for a Ship of the line was the Plain White ensign.

 

And also Merchant/private ships where Forbidden to use the Plain White Ensign.

 

So french Privateers for example would not have used the White Ensign.

 

But all French warships (owned by the navy)

Could carry the white ensign.

Edited August 3, 2015 by mattebubben

[Felix von Sachsen]

not only national flags should be correct.. the signalflags and pennants are modern aswell... i would prefer those(and even more to be able to send actual signals with them): https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CC4QFjACahUKEwiG-NfD3pTHAhWE3CwKHS2qBKs&url=http%3A%2F%2F3decks.pbworks.com%2Ff%2FAdmiral%252520Home%252520Popham%252520Telegraph%252520signal%252520book%252520Final%252520edition.pdf&ei=snjDVYbXL4S5swGt1JLYCg&usg=AFQjCNFQGHeGiV6fVSHpfr7Kd18u5RqUHQ&sig2=vx-IhdY5CYv1CGMdN2yD8g&bvm=bv.99556055,d.bGg&cad=rja

[PDF DOWNLOAD OF THE BRIT. SIGNAL BOOK OF 1806]

[mattebubben]

And i mean it should not be to hard to find the correct "Historical" flags and Signal flags/Pendats etc.

 

So really hope they do that.

[BlueEagleGER]

The question is more "Which historical flags should be used?" instead of "historical or modern".
It is extremly obvious that historical flags are what we want to see here.
It is not my intention to silence this threat but you all know:
Small dev team, lots of work and that flags are neither important nor a conplex thing that needs lots of testing. Admin requested help on the flags and ensigns as far back as 2013 and the threat is still active: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/21-flags-ensigns-banners/  <-- here it is eventually (edited)

Cheers

Edited August 14, 2015 by BlueEagleGER

[Prater]

Nice info.  I've played around with the flags and made a historical British flag for SLRN.  I'll play around with this for Sweden and Denmark.  There is no extra stuff you have to do to get the transparency to work so the swallow tail will be easy to make.

[Blackjack Symons]

not only national flags should be correct.. the signalflags and pennants are modern aswell... i would prefer those(and even more to be able to send actual signals with them): https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CC4QFjACahUKEwiG-NfD3pTHAhWE3CwKHS2qBKs&url=http%3A%2F%2F3decks.pbworks.com%2Ff%2FAdmiral%252520Home%252520Popham%252520Telegraph%252520signal%252520book%252520Final%252520edition.pdf&ei=snjDVYbXL4S5swGt1JLYCg&usg=AFQjCNFQGHeGiV6fVSHpfr7Kd18u5RqUHQ&sig2=vx-IhdY5CYv1CGMdN2yD8g&bvm=bv.99556055,d.bGg&cad=rja

[PDF DOWNLOAD OF THE BRIT. SIGNAL BOOK OF 1806]

 

Watching some of the Youtube videos and seeing the awkwardness of written chat, I thought of that too Felix. Signaling could be an awesome addition to the game, and could be streamlined with prompts - i.e., you press a hotkey to signal make more sail to a ship behind you, a text prompt pops up and says 'make more sail'.

 

But I digress. I, too (apparently part of the 100%) would like to see historically accurate flags in game. That said, I'm aware the devs have important bugs and content to deal with before that

(also yay first post)

[Felix von Sachsen]

in the current build there are greyed out officers slots besides the modules. having a signal officer to translate and send signals would be a great addition. the higher the signal officers rank, the faster signals are send/translated/less likely missinterpreted.

 

but yeah.. i guess thats a subject for a later part of the development.

[jok83]

46 votes so far, 100% for historic. please let it happen  

[Lorden]

Indeed. Has there -EVER- been a 100% in favour vote on this forum? This is something the devs should take note as being important to the players. All the recommendations so far in this thread seemed logical and relatively easy to implement.

 

If anything, this one thread about flag (a fairly minor historical anachronism) seems to point towards a desire from players to see MORE historical context as much as possible in-game. Something worth thinking about.

[Prater]

Here is my 1st attempt at a historically correct Swedish Flag.   I don't really like how it turned out, especially with the texture and color.  2nd attempt should be better.  I am constrained by the width and height can't be more than the default flags.  This time I kept height the same and cut down on width.  Next time I will cut down on height and keep width the same to get the longer looking effect.

 

https://youtu.be/izrXp04p5mg

[mattebubben]

It looks great! =)

 

The Colors might not be spot on as of yet but the shape looks great.

 

I did not even know the flags where modable =).

 

Side note: its no longer 100% infavour >=( somone had to mess that up now we just have 61 votes for and 1 against.

 

I guess its still pretty overwhelming on the aye side ^^

Edited August 27, 2015 by mattebubben

[Siegfried]

Historical. In the case of Spain, where 3 different flags can be historical the actual in game is the best and only change the shield with the modern flag.

[admin]

Here is my 1st attempt at a historically correct Swedish Flag.   I don't really like how it turned out, especially with the texture and color.  2nd attempt should be better.  I am constrained by the width and height can't be more than the default flags.  This time I kept height the same and cut down on width.  Next time I will cut down on height and keep width the same to get the longer looking effect.

 

https://youtu.be/izrXp04p5mg

 

Your colors are better than ours

seriously.

[Jean-Gaspard de Vence]

The first known French banner is that of King Louis VII leaving for the crusade 1147: like the coronation of her clothing was strewn with blue lilies of gold to signify that the world of the elect (the heavenly Jerusalem) came to his aid. Charles V (1364-1380) reduced the three lilies in honor of the Holy Trinity. This banner of France still figured the funeral of Louis XVIII (1824).

 

From the beginning of the fourteenth century the white was the color of French, especially on their cross dress in opposition to the red cross of the English (1350). The standard of the "King of Heaven" wanted by Joan of Arc was a white field (1429), and a white cross appeared in the sky at the entrance of the troops of Dunois in Bayonne in 1451. The pennant following the fleurdelisé king in the army on the march and in battle was replaced by the white cap from 1495 and it is still a sign of authority reported under Louis XIII (1620). The white cross lasted in the flags of the French infantry from the sixteenth century and in the pavilions of Shipping.

The abolition of the Admiralty of France (1627) reinforced a recent practice indicating the direct authority of the king on the Navy by the white flag. In 1643, the royal standard at the sea was dotted with white lilies with gold in the center the arms of France supported by two cherubs. The order of 9 October 1661 formalized the plain white flag for warships. Later, in 1689, defined a new prescription for the Royal Navy of trade, hit a blue flag with a white cross, in charge of arms of France (sometimes omitted). .The Pristine pavilion of the king and the state was authorized for the East India Company from 1739 finally granted the merchant navy who wore blue and white flags of different types. An order of Louis XV (25 March 1765) decided this standardization. To Worldwide France was white, and navy flag will see at the entrance of French ports and front of the houses of the consuls abroad (Levant, China, etc.).

  On July 13, 1789, the Parisian insurgents, whose custody of the city, hoisted the roundel with blue and red ribbons, colors of Paris, and when it became known that the king came to visit the capital we manufactured a roundel with a ribbon extra white. This new roundel with "Color of Freedom" was given by the mayor Bailly Louis XVI 17. It was formalized in Lafayette for the National Guard, 31 and August 2, King ratified. It was officially adopted without specific order on October 4, 1789. We live at the Festival of the Federation of 14 July 1790 white flames, red, blue, and then used in ceremonies as smooth sequence of blue, white, red .

To stop the discontent of the sailors, a law of 31 October 1790 created a stern white flag adorned with a canton with the composition of the Naval Jack: red vertical stripes, white, blue, all white piping and a divided thin edge vertically into two parts, the halyard to blue, and red.

 

The monarchy was abolished September 21, 1792 and the Republic proclaimed the next day. Dissatisfied with too white flag, sailors obtained from the National Convention on 27 Pluviose 2 year (February 15, 1794) a pavilion with blue strip (halyard), white, red. This was the birth of the current national flag, its revolutionary vertical stripes. It will be flown on all ships on the 1st day of Prairial (20 May 1794). He spent ashore to replace the tri-color flames on public buildings, and they saw the Tuileries during the installation of the First Consul February 19, 1801.

On land, the regiments had flags and banners often far removed from the tricolor, with all the possible geometric forms, particularly in 1804 a white square box corners by opposite blue and red triangles. In 1812, however, the three vertical bands also became official in the military square flags.

 

King back in 1814, the white cockade and spread a decree of the Provisional Government (April 13) decided that the white flag and the white cockade would be flown on ships of war and trade. Nothing else was decided. The white flag thus became the white flag on the ground until the return of Napoleon I in 1815 (it was the Hundred Days when the tricolor was hoisted from the imperial decree of 9 March), but on the return of Louis XVIII in Paris White became legal (July 7).

 

After the July Revolution (the Three Glorious), Louis-Philippe Duke of Orleans, lieutenant general of the kingdom, the tricolor restored by order of 1 August 1830, and became Louis Philippe I King French. Under his reign the navy obtained for practical reasons of visibility, the bands have unequal widths of 100 to 30 blue, 33 white and 37 red (1838).

 

On 24 February 1848 insurrection overthrew Louis Philippe, and a provisional government settled proclaiming the Second Republic. Some Parisian revolutionaries tried to pass the red flag while others wanted a blue tricolor, red, white, color order of the Feast of the Federation and the Empire rosettes. The poet Lamartine became foreign minister opposed to red and after his famous speech of 25 to the City Hall, which saved the tricolor, a compromise was reached on February 26, 1848. It was decided that was preserved flag and national flag decided by the National Convention (which had said nothing of the flag to the ground) "whose colors will be restored in the order that had adopted the French Republic", but members of the government will rosette red, which will also be placed at the flagpole.

Unfortunately, an order dated February 28, signed by the delegate of the Republic to the Police Department, the citizen Marc Caussidière responsible for the execution of the decision of 26, prescribed a blue-red-white flag is raised without delay and on monuments and public institutions. He had thought to do well choosing from the documents consulted, the draft 1794 of the painter David (not proven) that had never been achieved. Before the violence of the protests, the decree of March 5, 1848 and the circular of March 7 happily reestablished the situation. The Marine Regulation of the May 17, 1853 has confirmed the widths of the three bands of marine pavilion to 0.30, 0.33 and 0.37 of the total length.

 

The Second Empire and the Republics have retained the "national emblem" tricolor, confirmed with vertical bands and equal dimensions (1946 Constitution, art. 2) and without mention of verticality and dimensions (1958 Constitution, art . 2). The Navy, however, retains its uneven stripes. Also known is the attempt of the ephemeral Paris Commune (28 March to 28 May) to impose the red flag in 1871.

 

The color tone was never specified in any text. However, President Giscard d'Estaing changed the shade of blue in June 1976, in the clearing to make it more "readable" or more "telegenic" (Pantone 286C approximately) while red became more intense (Pantone 185C approximately).

 

 

 

REFERENCES: H. Pinoteau:

The French royal Symbolic. Ve-eighteenth centuries, P.S.R. Publishing, 86200 La Roche-Rigault, 2003;

 

The French Chaos and signs. Symbolic Study the French State since the de1789 Revolution, ibid., 1998

[Prater]

Well my 2nd attempt failed. It is too small height wise. In a week or two ill try a mix between the two. Only cutting down on the height a little bit. And I'll do a proper texture like my 2nd one. Then I'll work on a Danish one.