How to possibly fix "sail-spam"

[TheJRT]

Hello captains, it has arised various times on the forums the issue with people using and changing sails in order to accellerate and decelerate, thing which from what i've read is fairly unrealistic. 

 

My solution to this would be crew fatigue, especially if one is on any other mode rather than "sailing" mode he has a limited amount of crew working on the sails. I think that if a "fatigue" and "energy" level mechanic would be applied on the crew it would solve the issue of sail spamming; Let me elaborate:

 

lets say that 50 men are working on the sails and they have 100 energy, each time they move by one sail "step" (half, battle, full, etc) they for example gain 5 fatigue (or lose 5 energy) the lower the energy level goes the longer it takes for them to move the sails.

 

In the end the men working on the sails will be exausted and the player will be forced to stop spamming the sails in order to have them re-gain energy.

 

What do you guys and the devs think about this? I know that Maturin was particularly concerned by this so it would be good to have his feedback on my solution.

 

 

Let me know,

 

JRT

[Flip]

Well just an fyi, the game is in compressed time, so while the sail spamming may look wholly unrealistic, well it is.

I don't mind your idea but I do think it's just another system that, while in theory works, would need extensive tweaking and balancing not just across the board but per ship.

[TheJRT]

Well, while I do know that time is compressed it still feels fairly unrealistic, in various other topics many players agreed on the fact that it just feels like and "accellerator and brake" lets say, so I still think that it should be slightly reworked.

 

That said, I never said that it would be easy or feasible, but I think that if its a good idea it should be worked on, we need the devs to answer and say it it's doable.

 

 

JRT

[Jack Freedom]

Interesting suggestion. While it may solve the problem the simple idea of having an energy bar seems too arcadey to me.

 

Would be interesting to hear form the devs and see what they think. They will probably say that it needs more tweaking to get it right.

[Yankee jack]

The game (any game) is filled with "unrealistic" stuff.  Most of us could name a dozen easy.  

But, fun to play is the key for mass games.  (Profit helps too.  Duh!)

 

Us diehards would love more realism but it would probably come at a high price.  I think they are doing just fine.

[Galileus]

Interesting suggestion. While it may solve the problem the simple idea of having an energy bar seems too arcadey to me.

 

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. I get it, realism junkies, realism = immersion (>.<) and all... but are we now trying to decide what is posh enough for the elite realistic gamer? Slowing the game, adding more things to consider and generally putting "more thought, less action" into it seems arcadey because... energy bar?

[TheJRT]

Ok, maybe it wouldn't need to be an actual "energy bar" but it would happen automatically, after a few mins of "sail spamming" the sailors just get tired and sail moving gets slower, the player sees that, stops spamming the sails for a few mins (he can still move them) and they catch breath again. Easy as that.

 

Feedback?

 

JRT

 

 

P.s. Try to keep it nice, don't point fingers at others...

[Nicholls]

Sailing ships are slowed or accelerated by reeling, stowing or setting the sails and that's what the crew is there for. The ships have huge crews so that they have the man power to man the guns and still adjust the sails. While we may be playing a game the crew on our ship is in a life and death struggle, and if that isn't enough to motivate them there are the officers to start them with the rope end. Now when some of the crew have been killed the changeling of the sails does slow down. It's not broke leave it alone!

[TheJRT]

I know that ships accellerate and slow down in that way, they did like that irl. But in-game it's way easier to just press (and pretty much spam) "w" or "s". With this mechanic that i proposed people would be pretty much forced to move sails rather than "add" and "remove" them. See my point?

 

JRT

[TheJRT]

Also, if I may add, crew fatigue would only affect "vertical" movement of the sails (W and S) rather than horizontal movement of the sails (A and D)

 

JRT

[mouse of war]

Yes, the current system is or seems to be unrealistic but I think the devs have got the balance between playability and realism just about right and wouldn't want this mod.

 

I find that crew fatigue is sort of accounted for by player fatigue - I know that after a couple of intense games my efficiency drops and I'm unlikely to be as handy with the sail controls as when I started

[TheJRT]

Yes, the current system is or seems to be unrealistic but I think the devs have got the balance between playability and realism just about right and wouldn't want this mod.

 

I find that crew fatigue is sort of accounted for by player fatigue - I know that after a couple of intense games my efficiency drops and I'm unlikely to be as handy with the sail controls as when I started

regarding your second point, this is very true, I'll think more about it.

 

JRT

[Aragorn]

just a thought but what if you continuously spam sails, have a damage mechanism in place.......if you keep doing it your sails will start to become damaged.

[TheJRT]

just a thought but what if you continuously spam sails, have a damage mechanism in place.......if you keep doing it your sails will start to become damaged.

 

Ok, but wouldn't that be harder to implement, or I immagine it would need to be customized for every ship in game. Devs?

 

JRT

[maturin]

The problem is that the newby playstyle of mashing W and S keys to control speed is currently superior to the advanced way of playing, which is using yard controls. Tweak the sailing model and rebalance the speeds, and this won't be the case.

[TheJRT]

The problem is that the newby playstyle of mashing W and S keys to control speed is currently superior to the advanced way of playing, which is using yard controls. Tweak the sailing model and rebalance the speeds, and this won't be the case.

 

i think that because of how the game is headed sails are fine as they are, don't you think that it would be better to have the current mechanics we have and add something to prevent and disencourage players from spammins W and S?

This isn't a critic, its to try to obtain the best possible solution.

 

JRT

[AP514]

I think a longer time to change Sail state would fix the Problem...IMO

 

going from ZERO SAIL and into Zero sail should take a Long time..... and other sail state not as long but overall still longer than the Present game state

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

My opinion is much the same as Mr. AP514 - greatly, greatly increase the time between asking for a sail change (W or S), and implementing that sail change.  A/D should work the same as they do today.  Fully furling sails (0%) and then going back from 0 to 25% should take twice the amount of time that the increased time for sail changes will take.  Make it a punishment to go to 0 sails and people will stop doing it.

[Sir Cloudsley-Shovell]

I know its not "Historically " correct but as previously stated i think its fine as it is.In reality,the last thing you wanted were men swarming up the rigging handling Sails in the midst of a Battle.Once the maount of Sail was set then that was generally it.The sails/yards were then "Controlled" from the deck,to slow down you spilled the wind,to speed up you braces the Yards,obviously the Wind Direction had a lot to do with the Sail setting thus you get the jockying for the "Wind Gauge" to give you the advantage.

[AP514]

My opinion is much the same as Mr. AP514 - greatly, greatly increase the time between asking for a sail change (W or S), and implementing that sail change.  A/D should work the same as they do today.  Fully furling sails (0%) and then going back from 0 to 25% should take twice the amount of time that the increased time for sail changes will take.  Make it a punishment to go to 0 sails and people will stop doing it.

 

I totally agree....and 50% more time sounds like a good starting point...........Programmers...get hot  

[AKPyrate]

Also, if I may add, crew fatigue would only affect "vertical" movement of the sails (W and S) rather than horizontal movement of the sails (A and D)

 

JRT

 

From my experience on square riggers, it takes about the same energy to haul the braces as it does to haul the sheets or clewlines.  The halyard is a bit harder, but for quick sail changes, the halyards don't have to be dropped, just scandalize the sails.  Same can go for gaff sails, just scandalize the sail (drop the peak halyard-the lightweight part, and ease the sheet).

 

The problem is that the newby playstyle of mashing W and S keys to control speed is currently superior to the advanced way of playing, which is using yard controls. Tweak the sailing model and rebalance the speeds, and this won't be the case.

 

Yes, I'd love to see people who actually trim their sails get a little extra boost of speed (maybe have auto sails only provide 95% of the possible speed?.  The one problem that I've had is that fine tuning the yards in manual mode is a bit difficult, especially with a battle taking place.  In real life, a sail master/mate would give orders to mast captains who would be in charge of certain sails.  Many eyes that aren't looking at the next broadside, but instead concerned purely with trimming the sails and effecting repairs to damaged rigging.

 

I think a longer time to change Sail state would fix the Problem...IMO

 

going from ZERO SAIL and into Zero sail should take a Long time..... and other sail state not as long but overall still longer than the Present game state

 

I like this idea, but with possibly one other change: start a battle with some sails set, maybe battle sails.  That way it won't take 50% longer to get in to action with the enemy fleet.

[Jupe]

I think that it should be kept in mind that game shouldn't be too hard for newbies. There should be a balance between realism and playability.

Too much sail tweaking in the battle means ships dead stop and unintentional ramming on line battle. (if it takes too long to get sails up/down)

I'm new to the game and i mostly use my time while ranging my shot and trying to keep the correct heading.

[TheJRT]

Well. seems that the best option for you guys is slowing sail movement time, fair enough. It should probably be implemented and tested then, if that fails we'll find another method

 

JRT

[Kaaru62]

I don't mind the sail control, its the constant stop and go that people play, it is very annoying and gamey. this morning I was doing some testing in a Santisima to better simulate accelerating and stopping. what I did was to hit my speed control in stages. first was dead slow, I selected that and waited until the ship reached top speed at that setting before going to the slow setting. this method made it take a lot longer to accelerate and stop and made it feel more realistic. programming wise all it would take would be a code that say's you cannot go to the next sail setting until the current setting has stopped accelerating / decelerating.

 

I think we should look into this more as it would make a big difference in ship speed of acceleration and deceleration.

[Drunken Sailor]

One way to deal with this, at least in part, is to educate the new players.  I'm sure the developers will be providing instructions and guides for the final release.  Many who are not enthusiasts of this period of naval warfare are likely not aware of sail spilling as a way to adjust speed.  Without that knowledge, it would seem that raising and lowering sails is the way to do it.  As well, some players, when armed with the knowledge that there was not time to raise and lower sails during naval warfare and sail spilling was the method used, will also turn to that method in order to stay as realistic as possible.

 

Of course, there will ALWAYS be some who try to take the easiest way out and they will resort to sail spamming and any other method, no matter how annoying or historically inaccurate, in order to succeed in their own eyes.