Why early Anti-Ship Missiles and SAMs could work in the game

[Druzki]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A LONG TERM SUGGESTION WHICH IS A LOW PRIORITY

 

I know many here believe that anti-ship missiles and SAMs are completely out of the scope of the game and have too many new mechanics, but please please hear me out.

Here are the reasonns why I think they can be implemented in an entertaining way:

 

Until the mid 1970s, the vast majority of anti-ship missiles had less than 100km range, and SAM ranges rarely exceeded 50km. Given that 16in+ shells in the game already exceed 30km in range, this isn't such a massive increase in scale. 

Both ASMs and SAMs before the introduction of VLS systems have similar mountings as torpedos and guns, with either angled racks or turreted armed launchers. The ship designer therefore wouldn't need to be completely overhauled. 

WW2 era ships were retrofitted with missiles, so there is a precedent to add them in game, plus you wouldn't need to add drastically different hulls. 

When you think about it SAMs simply guided  artillery shells with longer range and much higher damage with higher accuracy which however can be shot down or spoofed. Apart from new visual effects and, a guidance mechanic and spoofing mechanic, everything else is already in game. Targeting with an ASM can be abstracted in terms of aim time just like torpedoes. 

Finally, Who doesn't want to retrofit their iowas with harpoons, or recreate the indo-pakistani and arab-israeli naval engagements?

 

Here are the challenges and new features which would need to be added , which I think are surmountable and wouldnt break the game:

 

SAMs would be more difficult to add, since we don't have anti-aircraft mechanics in game. However, their mechanics wouldn't be that much different to AA guns if theyre added . Both SAMs and AAA have to lock on to their targets, rotate launchers, reload, etc. If flash fires can be animated, the plume of a SAM motor can be animated too. 

Helicopters for midcourse guidance if target is beyond the horizon

A 2D map to zoom out. This feature would also be useful for WW2 era ships already in the game, since its annoying to move your camera 20-30km between your ships and the enemy

Ability to add different radar mounts on masts

Ability to add chaff and flare launchers on ships

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[UnleashtheKraken]

Bloody no.  Keep it to the era when surface ships were still viable combatants.  This game stops EXACTLY where it should.

[ColonelHenry]

For the love of god. This is Ultimate Admiral Dreadnought. I wouldn't even be commenting if the "Dreadnought" part is completed but it's not even close. The game is named Dreadnought but you can barely build any. Let the devs finish the bloody part that is supposed to be in the game first.

[Druzki]

4 hours ago, UnleashtheKraken said:

Bloody no.  Keep it to the era when surface ships were still viable combatants.  This game stops EXACTLY where it should.

It clearly doesn't stop exactly where it should if it has autoloaders, 40s dual purpose gun mounts, radars, 20in cannons, 24in liquid oxygen torpedos, and freaking  gas turbines. 

Antiship missiles made ships viable surface combatants again rather than being glorified AA/ASW carrier escort platforms in WW2. 

Whats the difference if you can two shot a ship with a 20in gun at 40km vs two shotting it with a P-15 termit from 30-40km away?

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Druzki

[Druzki]

1 hour ago, ColonelHenry said:

For the love of god. This is Ultimate Admiral Dreadnought. I wouldn't even be commenting if the "Dreadnought" part is completed but it's not even close. The game is named Dreadnought but you can barely build any. Let the devs finish the bloody part that is supposed to be in the game first.

I said this is a long temr suggestion in my OP

[UnleashtheKraken]

Just now, Druzki said:

I said this is a long temr suggestion in my OP

This game is about surface action in the pre-missile era.  Dreadnaughts.  It's right there in the name.  Modern ships are armored with kevlar against shrapnel, because no amount of armor will withstand the capabilities of modern air and missile assets, so they defend themselves with point defense rotary cannon, counter-missiles, and multi purpose guns that can engage sea, air, and land targets.  It's an entirely different environment and that's not what this game is.  PLEASE don't ask to cram more stuff into a period it doesn't fit.

[Druzki]

2 minutes ago, UnleashtheKraken said:

This game is about surface action in the pre-missile era.  Dreadnaughts.  It's right there in the name.  Modern ships are armored with kevlar against shrapnel, because no amount of armor will withstand the capabilities of modern air and missile assets, so they defend themselves with point defense rotary cannon, counter-missiles, and multi purpose guns that can engage sea, air, and land targets.  It's an entirely different environment and that's not what this game is.  PLEASE don't ask to cram more stuff into a period it doesn't fit.

Do these ships look modern to you with kevlar armor?  We already have automatic/semiautomatic dual purpose guns modeled. As I said earlier, antiship misssiles until the mid 70s like otomat, p-15, KSSch had a 40-60km range, similar to the range of 16-20in cannons and 24in torpedos. Aircraft carriers had a 200+km strike range by 1940, yet these will probably be added somehow. 

 

 

 

 

The H-20, montana class, des moines class, gearing class, shimakaze aren't dreadnoughts. 

If people are asking for aircraft carriers, the ill ask for this. 

 

[UnleashtheKraken]

Not within the scope of the game.  maybe they'll make a modern naval combat game and include nuke subs, ASW helis and patrol aircraft and satellites for intel and carrier groups and ALL THE FUN THINGS you want.  I'm not even against that game.

This game is intended to be 1890's ironclads to 1940's era big iron floating fortresses, their escorts, and some sort of abstracted carrier and sub effects, so they've said.  Let it be what it is.

[SiWi]

sounds to me more like a Sequel then an expatiation.

Thou "Pacific Storm" did have some of the early stuff (WW 2 stuff like "Fritz X" ect.). It there kinda broke the game balance. From losing alot of planes against big Fleet, to circle your 9isch KM away from the ships in order to control your guided bombs and then destroy the enemy piece by piece.

But then again, PS wasn't working that well as a game to beging with.

[Druzki]

Quote

 nuke subs

Didnt exist until the late 1960s.

Quote

ASW helis

 

Didnt exist until the late 1960s

Quote

patrol aircraft and satellites for intel 

Didnt exist until the late 70s early 80s

1960s naval combat had very little relation to 1970s to present naval combat. The vast majority of ships were WW2 era designs, aircraft were still using dumb bombs, helicopters had a minor role. 

Quote

Thou "Pacific Storm" did have some of the early stuff (WW 2 stuff like "Fritz X" ect.). It there kinda broke the game balance. From losing alot of planes against big Fleet, to circle your 9isch KM away from the ships in order to control your guided bombs and then destroy the enemy piece by piece.

 

The fritz x isn't a ship launched weapon though. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Druzki

[SiWi]

56 minutes ago, Druzki said:

The fritz x isn't a ship launched weapon though. 

True, but the ship rocktes (AA if I recall correctly) were bugged and didn't work... so I went with what I remember to actual work in the game.

 

Anyway, the point remains: anti ship rocktes could be a balance problem. maybe it would work if we get real "flak" and that flak has the ability to shot rockets down and that their accuracy isn't 100%.

[Druzki]

2 hours ago, SiWi said:

True, but the ship rocktes (AA if I recall correctly) were bugged and didn't work... so I went with what I remember to actual work in the game.

 

Anyway, the point remains: anti ship rocktes could be a balance problem. maybe it would work if we get real "flak" and that flak has the ability to shot rockets down and that their accuracy isn't 100%.

Yes anti-ship missiles are low priority and should come after aircraft carriers an AA gun implementation. However if AA is implemented, anti-ship missiles would be more straightforward to implement than aircraft dogfights .

[Grayknight]

On 1/5/2022 at 3:37 AM, Druzki said:

Here are the reasonns why I think they can be implemented in an entertaining way:

Well to be honest i think that early missiles are not a bad idea overall, i mean germany did planed on atacking USA with missile armed uboats, there is no reason why we couldent arm cruisers and bb's with V1 or V2 outside of the fact that it would be passible weapon only in shore bombardment and nothing much more unleass we would invent in to that technology and have option of playing till 1960

Over all i think that game would get far more content instead of going up to age of missiles with a earlier start. It is obviously out of game scope but prehaps given the fact of sandbox nature of the product it very well may be added later on.

I would love expansions allowing me instead of (ultimatly at least) playing 1890-1940s - to be 1870 - 1960 - but then again there is alot of things to do, to get product working in 1890-1940s, before even thinking about DLCs and expansions.

[HusariuS]

Honestly speaking it would be just better to make "Ultimate Admiral Cold War" focusing on 1945+ ship designs rather than implementing missiles to a game about gun fights between warships leave alone Planes, Carriers and AAA.

And to be fair even if they would decide to go with your idea, according to current state of the game it would be few years before that would happen and I've been playing UAD since Alpha 2 or 3 and I must say the core of the game didn't change that much if at all, and that was 2 Years ago I think? 

So missiles right now are not even low priority, it's a dream that may never come true.

Edited January 6, 2022 by HusariuS

[Drenzul]

I don't mind them adding some aircraft and submarines to the game....
Having to design your fleets to be able to deal with them as well as sea-bourne threats is fine.

But pushing out to 1970s tech? Nope.... 

WW2 was the last era were the battleship was truly useful, after that everything the battleship could do
planes can do better. 1 carrier replaces 5 battleships and can strike from a safe distance.

Even late era ww2 torpedo bombers are pushing it.

[Cptbarney]

No. Maybe in the next game, but for now no. The devs already have too much to do and the game is still pretty barebones at this stage. Also thats far too big of a scope to make assests for.

The devs could make a game focused from 1950-1990 instead, which allows them to take whatever experience they took from this into the new game and make the development much more smoother.

Having only surface vessels is fine.

[Druzki]

9 hours ago, Cptbarney said:

No. Maybe in the next game, but for now no. The devs already have too much to do and the game is still pretty barebones at this stage. Also thats far too big of a scope to make assests for.

The devs could make a game focused from 1950-1990 instead, which allows them to take whatever experience they took from this into the new game and make the development much more smoother.

Having only surface vessels is fine.

However the vast majority of cold war until the 1970s  ships were refurbished WW2 or 1930s designs. Most US aircraft carriers and cruisers of the 1960s were modernized essex class carriers while the cruisers were worcester, des moines, etc classes with terrier SAMs slapped on. Most soviet warships were 1930s designs like the kildin, sverdlov, kanin with some P-15s slapped on.  US aircraft strike groups were still expected to bomb ships with dumb bombs. Cold war naval combat until the advent of antiship missiles with ranges of more than 100km and advanced radar  would've been very similar to WW2 naval combat. Early cold war ships up to 1970 are therefore have very different combat compared to ships 1980s onwards.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Druzki

[Commander Reed]

9 hours ago, Cptbarney said:

No. Maybe in the next game, but for now no. The devs already have too much to do and the game is still pretty barebones at this stage. Also thats far too big of a scope to make assests for.

The devs could make a game focused from 1950-1990 instead, which allows them to take whatever experience they took from this into the new game and make the development much more smoother.

Having only surface vessels is fine.

NEXT GAME? You've got to be having a laugh, surely. Haha... next game... 😀

(Please no.)

[Cptbarney]

16 hours ago, Commander Reed said:

NEXT GAME? You've got to be having a laugh, surely. Haha... next game... 😀

(Please no.)

Too be fair, i they will probs go cold war anyways sooner or later lol.

At least it will be more smoother anyways.

[Littorio]

I understand what you are saying in theory. In practice, I doubt we will ever get quite that far. If UA:D does ultimately get fully finished in the next couple of years, I'd be happy to talk about some kind of mod to do this. You are correct in that many WWII-era ships continued to serve on into the 50s, 60s, and even 70s, with guided missiles of comparable range to large caliber gunfire. That said, the time period of 1890-1940 is already large enough and we have sufficient issues already getting just that 50 year period implemented correctly. Adding another 20-30 years will only scale mission creep.

I applaud your courage in bringing this up though, and risking facing the kneejerk "NOs" from everyone (which occured lol). As I said, I wouldn't want anyone thinking of this anytime soon in any capacity, but in that bright sunny future where a complete UA:D is out and has no issues, a mod for 1950-1970 could be very interesting, as that time period is largely overlooked, as you say. People tend to think of warship tech that is more 1980-current. The transitory phase from gun to missile is largely missed by games. Something like Dangerous Waters by Sonalysts is a good example of a modern sea game, but I can't think of anything comparable for earlier times post WWII.