Accuracy/Aiming Issues with Mixed Number of Guns per Turret

[HistoricalAccuracyMan]

So I've dealt with this for a while now, but I'm seriously wondering why it's still a thing. I'm doing a USS Nevada type build where I have two dual turrets and two triple turrets for the main battery. The dual turrets seem to have no issue when it comes to aiming and locking on to a target, but the triple turrets seem to have no prayer of locking on or being somewhat accurate at all. One minute all turrets are locked on, but then-for seemingly no reason-the triple turrets get a massive -400% stat for ladder aiming (see the picture below) while the dual turrets are still fine...and this is with no course/speed change either. This only happens when I start mixing guns per turret: if all the main guns have the same number of guns per turret (all singles, all duals, all triples or all quads) then there is no problem. Has anyone else experienced this problem or is anyone still experiencing this problem?

 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by HistoricalAccuracyMan
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[Cpt.Hissy]

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Yes. Still experiencing? Yes.
Will it be fixed? Judging by the way development went in last.. years... Never.

[Tankaxe]

Trust me everyone is just as confused as you are on why guns with the same caliber aren't unified into one aiming system.

[Evil4Zerggin]

One wrinkle with that is that turrets with more guns currently have a RoF penalty. This leads to the following options:

• Fire separately with separate ladder aiming (as now).
• Fire separately but share ladder aiming (though my impression was that individual fire was disfavored historically?)
• Have the faster turrets slow down to the RoF of the slower turrets (still pretty unfavorable to such setups).
• Eliminate the RoF penalty in favor of a greater accuracy penalty or some sort of separate reliability penalty (chance for each gun not being able to fire at the sync time?)

Edited July 14, 2021 by Evil4Zerggin

[madham82]

12 hours ago, Evil4Zerggin said:

One wrinkle with that is that turrets with more guns currently have a RoF penalty. This leads to the following options:

• Eliminate the RoF penalty in favor of a greater accuracy penalty or some sort of separate reliability penalty (chance for each gun not being able to fire at the sync time?)

I'd say use this one, but have the accuracy penalty reduce then eliminated as the gun mark increases (to account for the development of tech to reduce shell interference). Reliability should be the main drawback to multi gun setups. 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Sometimes guns just...Don't want to target for basically the whole match. No idea why this is the case but it universally requires restarting the mission.

I had a DD practically ignore a BB's secondary battery as it never locked on despite a huge rate of fire, max tech/radar and such.

[killjoy1941]

On 7/11/2021 at 8:16 PM, HistoricalAccuracyMan said:

So I've dealt with this for a while now, but I'm seriously wondering why it's still a thing. I'm doing a USS Nevada type build where I have two dual turrets and two triple turrets for the main battery. The dual turrets seem to have no issue when it comes to aiming and locking on to a target, but the triple turrets seem to have no prayer of locking on or being somewhat accurate at all. One minute all turrets are locked on, but then-for seemingly no reason-the triple turrets get a massive -400% stat for ladder aiming (see the picture below) while the dual turrets are still fine...and this is with no course/speed change either. This only happens when I start mixing guns per turret: if all the main guns have the same number of guns per turret (all singles, all duals, all triples or all quads) then there is no problem. Has anyone else experienced this problem or is anyone still experiencing this problem?

 

 

I think what you're seeing is a variation of the target lock bug, which Nick confirmed exists because the aiming system is turret-based, not director-based, and requires a minimum of two turrets to function. In other words, it's more in undocumented feature territory than bug because it's introduced via mechanic.

Because the game treats the 2x3 and 2x2 14s as separate batteries, they each have just two turrets. If one turret is obstructed, that battery will lose target lock, as you're seeing with the 2x3 battery - note the rear turret is unable to bear on your target. The current solution is to build ships with unified batteries and/or three or more turrets per battery. The idea solution would be for Nick and his team to unify same-caliber batteries. One potential solution I don't think we'll see is a director-based aiming system, since there aren't directors to be had in the early period covered by the game.

[Norbert Sattler]

I'd be... well not exactly happy but still somewhat glad if the issue only occured when combinding different turrets of the same caliblre, but I have a similar issue rearing it's head even with unified turrets on occasion.

Three turrets, but instead of all firing together, they each fire seperately and I never get a lock-on, until I forbid them from firing until all are loaded and hope that once I allow them to fire again, they'll do so together.

Then there's also the issue of center-line and wing turrets counting as seperate even if they use the exact same turrets.

And the actual issue reported by the OP on top of that...

Yeah, I hope the devs are going to overhault the aiming mechanic some more, because right now there's quite a bit suboptimal stuff going on.

[killjoy1941]

6 hours ago, Norbert Sattler said:

I'd be... well not exactly happy but still somewhat glad if the issue only occured when combinding different turrets of the same caliblre, but I have a similar issue rearing it's head even with unified turrets on occasion.

Three turrets, but instead of all firing together, they each fire seperately and I never get a lock-on, until I forbid them from firing until all are loaded and hope that once I allow them to fire again, they'll do so together.

Then there's also the issue of center-line and wing turrets counting as seperate even if they use the exact same turrets.

And the actual issue reported by the OP on top of that...

Yeah, I hope the devs are going to overhault the aiming mechanic some more, because right now there's quite a bit suboptimal stuff going on.

Here's the relevant post, followed by another.

Basically, that makes A/B, A/B/X, or A/B/X/Y the optimal design. X/Y would be reliable too, though I don't know why you'd build that outside some very early game exceptions which will have awful accuracy anyway. A/X/Y can cause problems unless you always run. A/X will always cause problems unless you fight broadside, and even then you'll have to manually retarget often. If you're using wing turrets, you need four total. If you're using a cross-deck design, you have to pay attention and manually retarget the cross-deck battery as necessary if one of the turrets becomes obstructed.

I know it's not ideal, but it's what we have right now.

[disc]

On 7/13/2021 at 8:14 PM, Evil4Zerggin said:

Have the faster turrets slow down to the RoF of the slower turrets (still pretty unfavorable to such setups).

Believe this was typically the US approach. I'm not sure it was considered a huge disadvantage, for whatever that's worth. I'm not sure the difference in ROF was quite as pronounced as in the game, though it's a bit tough to say.

[killjoy1941]

1 hour ago, disc said:

Believe this was typically the US approach. I'm not sure it was considered a huge disadvantage, for whatever that's worth. I'm not sure the difference in ROF was quite as pronounced as in the game, though it's a bit tough to say.

No navy used maximum ROF outside desperate brawls anyway. Either they had set doctrine they used for firing procedures or it was every turret crew, or sometimes every rifle crew, at its maximum speed. For example, the Germans used A/X, B/Y. For an example of desperation, see the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, where battery commanders in many of the US ships were closing the firing circuits as soon as their individual crews had loaded.

Basically, there's no reason batteries couldn't be unified by caliber and use the slowest ROF.

Edited July 16, 2021 by killjoy1941

[Evil4Zerggin]

8 hours ago, disc said:

Believe this was typically the US approach. I'm not sure it was considered a huge disadvantage, for whatever that's worth. I'm not sure the difference in ROF was quite as pronounced as in the game, though it's a bit tough to say.

That's how I would do it if I were given command of USS Nevada IRL. However, it is a huge disadvantage in-game at the moment. Two twins and two triples if slowed to the rate of the triples would have effective firepower (rate of fire * accuracy) of 9.7 / 1.525 = 636% that of a single gun. (9.7 = 10 guns, minus 6 guns having -5% accuracy each for being triples.) Meanwhile four twins would have effective firepower of 8 / 1.35 = 593% that of a single gun. Going from a twin to a triple is 90% of the weight of a single gun, so you paid 180% of a single gun for 43.5% of the firepower, a marginal efficiency of just 24%. For comparison, going from all twins to all triples is 43% marginal efficiency, which is still bad, but much less so.

Quads would be even worse. A KGV setup of two quads and a twin would have 8.8 / 1.7 = 518% the effective firepower of a single gun. For comparison, three triples would be 8.55 / 1.525 = 561%, having higher overall effective firepower despite having one fewer barrel and lower weight, but in turn worse than four twins in the same way (though at least taking up less deck space).

Certainly uniform turrets were superior in most circumstances IRL. But it seems Nevada/KGV/Penascola/Conte di Cavour setups (and quad turrets in general for that matter) were at least not totally unconscionable, which is how I would describe these stats.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Evil4Zerggin