Torpedo Attack Mechanics

[Bigjku]

Some things that I think need to be added to the game as a few core dynamics seem to be missing from things.

1.  We desperately need to be able set a pattern for big deck launched torpedo spreads.  There are different things one might want to accomplish with a spread.  If it’s a crippled ship I may want a very narrow spread just to put it down for the count.  If I am firing at a large battle line or very fast cruisers I may want an extra wide spread just to try to get one hit.  Right now we can’t control this and it causes problems.  I suggest three settings for torpedoes, tight (double the length of the target basically) normal (4 times length of target) and wide (6 times length of target).  Those spreads are just me ballpark if things but you get the idea.  I want to be able to control the kind of shoot I am getting.  If I have 4 destroyers with 15 torpedoes on each I don’t want them firing in narrow spreads on a battle line of 5 or 6 big ships.

2.  Torpedo detection seems off.  Are the sensors speed dependent because they should give little to no bonus at higher speeds.  Simply put hydrophones aren’t going to work much at all at 25-30 knots.  Sonar might work a little bit but still NTI very well.  You should be very dependent on wake detection at battle speeds to be honest.

3.  I see no reason for torpedoes ever to be launched by the AI.  I can manage this by turning things off.  But often when I turn back to aggressive only some of my ships will launch.  I want a button to launch torpedoes regardless of hit chance.  Tactically there are many reasons one might do this but mostly I want to be able to launch as a division in relative unison.  This is rarely accomplished well in game.

[killjoy1941]

Torpedoes are in an odd place right now in that they seem to get a fair amount of complaints.

1. My ideal would be a selectable spread and center firing point. Select torpedoes -> set spread by degree -> aim here -> fire. Not that much different from what you're proposing. War on the Sea does this and it's great, allowing for real historical torpedo tactics.

2. It's a function of torpedo detection modifiers and target sensors, but doesn't factor in target speed at all as far as I can tell. This makes for some extremely bizarre behavior, where early and mid-era torpedoes are devastating because TBs and DDs can quickly close due to poor weapon and fire control characteristics on the target, but late-era, powerful torpedoes are all but useless if the enemy fleet has a screen of any kind with sensors.

3. The AI is actually quite good with torpedoes, but target reactions to even slight maneuvers tend to make its solutions worthless. This more than anything else is why I'd prefer to have more control.

It's also very much an interface topic which is why I don't expect any serious changes, if they're coming at all, until the campaign is well established. Since the base mechanics are working, there isn't a huge amount of incentive to do more than dribble in changes as they're developed while the game is still in such an early alpha state.

[Right]

I think a spread would be very welcome and reduction on spotting when on high speeds aswell. But when it comes to luch you can always turn them off and then on when you want to fire. Sometimes you suddnly realise you are 1% wrong in angle and they dont fire and then I would welcome a better torp visual fire angle indicator(for the guns can be nice as well)

The problem I see with torps atm is that the damage mechanic is strange. on one hand they have a very good chance to kill engines while at the same time with lots of antitorp tech the struct damage can be almost with no effect. a bit like the flash fire and ammo detonations randomness that leads my bb to sink from a 4'' partial pen hit while having 1% to get flash fire, still the gods of rng decided I deserve to lose.

So yea torps should be devestating but if so then the amount of torp lunchers that 1 ship can have should be limited just as amount of main guns, and antitorp tech should decrease chances to get engine/roter damage more then a reduction to the struct damage itself as it is now that allowing some ships to eat 10-20 torps.

[WelshZeCorgi]

Torpedoes are definitely the weakest part of the game so far. They're simply frustrating to use and for the most part, the Naval academy missions I hate the most involve depending on torpedoes to win the battle. Trying to replicate real life torpedo tactics requires a ton of micromanagement and even when you pull it off, the ship AI still sometimes screws up. 

 

Also, weird that the AI does not take turns into consideration, if a ship was consistently turning, instead of leading the turn, it instead leads as if the ship stopped turning and maintained course on the the exact heading the second the torpedoes leave the ship. 

Sometimes, a torpedo does not fire. If it had 5 torpedoes in the launcher, it sometimes launches 4. If it was because UAD simulates duds or launcher malfunction, that's cool, but as far as I know, it doesn't so it's kinda weird when it does that. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by WelshZeCorgi

[Cptbarney]

15 hours ago, WelshZeCorgi said:

Torpedoes are definitely the weakest part of the game so far. They're simply frustrating to use and for the most part, the Naval academy missions I hate the most involve depending on torpedoes to win the battle. Trying to replicate real life torpedo tactics requires a ton of micromanagement and even when you pull it off, the ship AI still sometimes screws up. 

 

Also, weird that the AI does not take turns into consideration, if a ship was consistently turning, instead of leading the turn, it instead leads as if the ship stopped turning and maintained course on the the exact heading the second the torpedoes leave the ship. 

Sometimes, a torpedo does not fire. If it had 5 torpedoes in the launcher, it sometimes launches 4. If it was because UAD simulates duds or launcher malfunction, that's cool, but as far as I know, it doesn't so it's kinda weird when it does that. 

Regarding the last part, its why the report part needs to show for example 'Tube 2 in Quad torp launcher 1 has misfired!' So then you will know if its misfired or not, same with duds as well.

Victory of the seas does this im hoping they will implement such a small, but very important feature.

[madham82]

Just for clarity, there are no duds or misfires simulated in the game. So when you see it do something weird, it is a bug. 

[Lagndon84]

I have completed most of the naval academy but I'm having an issue with 5 that seem to need torpedoes to complete.  The problem is that no matter the distance from enemy they always seem to detect/evade the second a ship launches.  Could be running oxy launching at 12km and enemy detects launch and evades without having a noticed of detection.  The other issue that I have had is an enemy BB having a turn radius of 1200+ 6km from me evades fast torps when I have 6 ships spread loose and abreast almost all launching at same time.  I then turn to launch from the other side of ships and not a single torp hits.  Almost 40 torps launched at a ship with 1200+ turn and no hits!?!  Am I the only one that has this issue?  Is there something coded/glitch that allows enemy to detect the launch trigger without using sonar/hydro?

[Mindstrip]

 

     Great Scott!

 

 

On 2/27/2021 at 1:35 PM, Cptbarney said:

"Victory of the seas does this"    

 

Captain. Bernard. H. Barnaby!!
You dare risk unholy retribution by the mere mention of another boat game!? 
I see that you like to live dangerously!

 

Dear gods! May they have mercy on your soul!

 

 

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Edited March 1, 2021 by Mindstrip

[Bigjku]

Also for the love of everything holy no more than one set of reloads for deck launchers and those reloads need to occupy roughly equivalent space on the ship.

Torpedoes are a 1 or 2 shot weapon.  There has to be a dynamic that forces you or the AI to use them in critical situations only.  I faced a Japanese cruiser with 160 some torpedoes on board.  I don’t mind dodging the first set.  Or even the second.  But it just goes on and on and on.  The proper tactical dynamic for using torpedoes is as a one or at best a two shot weapon.

The surface area of 100 torpedoes would be roughly 4,000 square feet.  You simply wouldn’t have anywhere to put them on a cruiser sized ship where deck space is already tight.  Moreover the ship would be covered with 50,000 pounds of high explosives waiting to be hit and sympathetically detonate.  Yet I had to pound these three cruisers to paste over a considerable amount of time.

Carrying excess torpedoes on deck to this degree should make for almost certain detonation.  I am not sure if the ammo detonation metrics track what is left but this should be another tactical consideration.  Do I want to keep holding these bombs on my deck if I am getting hammered with gunfire?  The chances of detonation under high volume gunfire need to be much higher.

[madham82]

25 minutes ago, Bigjku said:

Also for the love of everything holy no more than one set of reloads for deck launchers and those reloads need to occupy roughly equivalent space on the ship.

Torpedoes are a 1 or 2 shot weapon.  There has to be a dynamic that forces you or the AI to use them in critical situations only.  I faced a Japanese cruiser with 160 some torpedoes on board.  I don’t mind dodging the first set.  Or even the second.  But it just goes on and on and on.  The proper tactical dynamic for using torpedoes is as a one or at best a two shot weapon.

The surface area of 100 torpedoes would be roughly 4,000 square feet.  You simply wouldn’t have anywhere to put them on a cruiser sized ship where deck space is already tight.  Moreover the ship would be covered with 50,000 pounds of high explosives waiting to be hit and sympathetically detonate.  Yet I had to pound these three cruisers to paste over a considerable amount of time.

Carrying excess torpedoes on deck to this degree should make for almost certain detonation.  I am not sure if the ammo detonation metrics track what is left but this should be another tactical consideration.  Do I want to keep holding these bombs on my deck if I am getting hammered with gunfire?  The chances of detonation under high volume gunfire need to be much higher.

I've brought all these points up before, but we have had little interest showed by the Devs to truly address it. They reduced the reloads by one and added some weight, but it was just a band-aid on gushing wound. 

At the same time, torpedo protection at high levels is absurdly overpowered, detection is out of whack, etc...

[Zuikaku]

And also all torpedoes are flawless and explode on target regardless of impact angle. That cuts another level of tactical thi king

[Tycondero]

On 3/5/2021 at 8:50 AM, Zuikaku said:

And also all torpedoes are flawless and explode on target regardless of impact angle. That cuts another level of tactical thi king

This alone already makes them super OP. I raised this issue already more than once: we need dud torpedoes.

Also, from a sound and graphics point of view, torpedo impacts could do with a bit more effects. Currently the impact by a torpedo is a rather dull affair, would be great if it would be a bit more dramatic both in visual and audio. I think War on the Sea does it a bitter better.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Tycondero

[MrStan53]

To add to this, it also feels to me anti torpedo measures are incredibly underpowered. Speaking from personal anecdote, over half of my engagements feel determined by torpedoes. I get that torpedoes should be devastating, but it seems even quadruple anti torpedo bulkheads struggle against 18 inch torpedoes. It's gotten to the point for me where I just invest that extra weight into bulkheads, armor thickness, and triple hulls and prioritize sinking torpedo heavy ships before even floating bombs battlecruisers. Maybe I just suck at countering them, and I don't think we should return to the days of the destroyer being more fragile than a newborn, but torpedoes need a rebalance. Perhaps this can be done as multiple people have said, with more direct angles needed for a hit and sometimes duds, but also it would be interesting to have torpedoes ricochet and keep going, as well as being able to customize torpedo fuses and charges.

[madham82]

1 hour ago, MrStan53 said:

To add to this, it also feels to me anti torpedo measures are incredibly underpowered. Speaking from personal anecdote, over half of my engagements feel determined by torpedoes. I get that torpedoes should be devastating, but it seems even quadruple anti torpedo bulkheads struggle against 18 inch torpedoes. It's gotten to the point for me where I just invest that extra weight into bulkheads, armor thickness, and triple hulls and prioritize sinking torpedo heavy ships before even floating bombs battlecruisers. 

The Anti-torp is where the protection becomes unbalanced...it is way overpowered at IV and V levels. The others don't do real damage reduction if I remember. I have screens of 100K monster BBs eating 60 torpedoes (21") before sinking finally. The issue being it is a flat reduction to their damage numbers. Anti-torp (or TDS) needs to be reduced as the same side takes repeated hits. They just don't maintain the same strength after the first hit, which is the main purpose of TDS to prevent a capital ship from taking 1 or 2 hits and sinking. 

Unfortunately this similar to the issues impacting armor in general, so without a major rework I don't see it changing. 

Here's my thread from awhile back highlighting some issues: 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by madham82

[MrStan53]

3 hours ago, madham82 said:

The Anti-torp is where the protection becomes unbalanced...it is way overpowered at IV and V levels. The others don't do real damage reduction if I remember. I have screens of 100K monster BBs eating 60 torpedoes (21") before sinking finally. The issue being it is a flat reduction to their damage numbers. Anti-torp (or TDS) needs to be reduced as the same side takes repeated hits. They just don't maintain the same strength after the first hit, which is the main purpose of TDS to prevent a capital ship from taking 1 or 2 hits and sinking. 

Unfortunately this similar to the issues impacting armor in general, so without a major rework I don't see it changing. 

Here's my thread from awhile back highlighting some issues: 

 

Yeah, reading yours I definitely concur with your analysis. I typically do not build warships above 75,000T, and often have issues with lower torpedo protections and on smaller ships (especially BC, Dreadnought era BB, and CA hulls) however upping my displacement to super BB levels and whacking on max bulkheads, maximum torpedo protection, and top of the line damage control measures such as triple hull, antiflood 3, and reinforced bulkheads and doors was unfairly overpowered. It took a good two dozen torpedoes of 20 and 22 inch to even get me down to 95% buoyancy and 60% structural integrity.

I also replicated this with a battleship using the US Battlecruiser hull (one very similar to my typical designs). The only differences (that would matter to torpedo boats, CLs, and DDs) were my hull change, my bulkheads were reduced to standard, anti torpedo was reduced to double bulkheads, and I would be armed with 2" and 5" guns as opposed to 4" and 5". The torpedoes the ships were armed with were also slightly lighter (18" and 22"). Of course I was expecting considerably less antitorpedo protection, however I noticed the dropoff of damage was extreme. 18" torpedoes were doing the damage the 22" were doing before, and it took three 22" torpedoes to sink me (this screencap is only after the first, unfortunately I set it to 5 speed and was unable to get a new screencap.) I definitely think there are some balance issues here, in the sense a 50,000 ton battleship, even with medium-low end torpedo protection shouldn't be out of action after 3 torpedo hits, but also heavy torpedo protection shouldn't be able to shrug off 22" torpedo hits.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by MrStan53