Penetration and gun rebalance - review

[admin]

main post updated.

[Never]

On 7/28/2020 at 3:44 AM, admin said:

Base un-upgraded thickness for oak
95-100 - lineships/3rd rates
85-90 - 4th rates/frigates
70-75 - 6th rates and unrated
 

Based on these figures, upgrades like Navy Planking, should not give a ship a flat +10 thickness. It should have different values for each ship rating tier or work as %. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Never

[Jan van Santen]

On 7/28/2020 at 10:44 AM, admin said:

 

• Range control. 
  • Every gun will have a role (even 4lb). All guns should be able to penetrate a fully upgraded ship hull and masts at 100m as they could historically. Including smallest calibers.
  •  

 

Actually even a 6 pounder didnt penetrate a lo/wo hull, even below 100 m. The docu used a 6 pdr shot against a model of the "Constitution" hull. 

wo would be penetrated, lo/wo would not.

The experiment was done for "Master and Commander- The true story" docu. I cant access the actual docu atm, but the experiment can also be seen here, around 7:50

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Jan van Santen

[Commodore Sixty Four]

This is brilliant!

@admin You guys are really on the right track with your most recently announced planned updates and releases, in my opinion. I think it’s going to be a much more historically accurate, nuanced game if the execution lives up to the intention. I’m looking forward to it, even if some changes negate some of the understanding of mechanics and “skills” I’ve developed to date.

[Schnapss]

On 7/30/2020 at 9:02 PM, Eowulf said:

                       

In my experience, most the people who stick with this game are due to the realism and relative historical accuracy, and yes that's what we want.  Within reason of coures.  If you want arcade pirate ships there is sid meyers or sea of thieves.  This is the only realistic tall ship game on the market so don't try to change that.

Your experience is wrong. Relative historical accuracy means that hypothetical victory should kill any ship of 3rd - 7th rate. We already have a stupid historycal accuracy where 3rd rate ship can be faster then small ships. We already get your beloved "realism" in wood stats:

I hope it's clear without hints what is wrong in this picture. Game balance can be implemented in two ways: when every ship and cannon is useful (EVE online is the perfect example) or your main goal to grind the best and biggest ship (WoW style). And both ways nothing to do with realism and historycal accuracy.

 

[Redman29]

Deleted

Edited August 1, 2020 by Redman29

[Lizzo]

15 minutes ago, Redman29 said:

Just wanted to point out that Navy guns are not represented on either chart. They are listed on the legend but not the graph. So with Edinorog on old data. 

Navy guns have the same pen as long guns i think, that's why the corresponding graphs overlap 

[GhostOfDorian]

What will the advantage of an obusier will be, if you compare it with a carronade?

[derekticus]

On the original posted graphs, I don't see all the lines - 8 gun types are listed in the key, but only 7 lines of data on the graph...

Leads to confusion

[Serk]

20 minutes ago, derekticus said:

On the original posted graphs, I don't see all the lines - 8 gun types are listed in the key, but only 7 lines of data on the graph...

Leads to confusion

Navy guns and Long guns are identical regarding penetration, so both lines are on top of each other.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Serk

[Conte D. Catellani]

Do you think that now we will have to go for different kind of guns on deck? Long and carros? Engage enemies from distance before going in close combat? 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Conte D. Catellani

[Jan van Santen]

Here is the full experiment (German) and it shows that a cannonball did not penetrate lo/wo  even at a 15 distance (starts at 30 mins)

https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/terra-x/die-korsaren-freibeuter-der-meere-100.html

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Jan van Santen

[Lizzo]

11 hours ago, Jan van Santen said:

Here is the full experiment (German) and it shows that a cannonball did not penetrate lo/wo  even at a 15 distance (starts at 30 mins)

Quick addition: They did scale down both the frame and the cannon so that the frame was only 20cm thick. That means that the cannon represents at least an 18 or 24pd cannon which is quite an impressive result for the live oak frame 

[admin]

16 hours ago, Jan van Santen said:

Here is the full experiment (German) and it shows that a cannonball did not penetrate lo/wo  even at a 15 distance (starts at 30 mins)

https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/terra-x/die-korsaren-freibeuter-der-meere-100.html

 

which part and min?

[Despe]

in this issue of penetration and gun rebalance, it is only needed a little fix in my opinion, specially in the question on mast thickness wich is to buffed i guess in some ships. For example, a standard Victory DLc of seasoned live oak with french rig is almost indemastable (i have one DLC vic with 177 thick on mast and no ramndom mast bonuses, only a french rig), only double charge perk on 42 pdr shoots can demast at 50 meters. I had a battle some days ago redout vs redout in which i make more that 25 mast shoots in first mast with my long 36pdr and no efect. I ask the other player and said me that he was seasoned live with mast and rig 4 and no more mast bonuses... And imposible to demast, mast thick is 168. This is too much and needs a fix. But put the penetration of 24 long pdr on almost 200 is too much. And i am not discussing about historical facts, im discusing about playability of game, and a buff penetration like main post shows is a complete unbalance.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Despe

[z4ys]

4 hours ago, admin said:

which part and min?

part one starting at around 31mins. But they scaled it down - question is it linear and how exactly it got scaled down only reference is that the wooden dummy is 20cm thick and represent a typical framing of that time

[Koltes]

Being a hunter and a sport shooter who reloads and develops my own ammo loads, a lot of gun pen comments missing two important factors when address penetration.

There are too main factors. Kinetic energy of the projectile and the area size of the impact. Im not even touching the ballistic coefficient. We are talking about when your projectile have made it to the target.

On normal conditions (no angles or stable target) its the kinetic energy mass by area.

Kinetic energy calculated from speed and the weight of the projectile. Area of application (in our case) is the size of the cannon ball.

Thus, where 42pd cannon ball would bounce without a dent a small musket bullet would penetrate some portion of armor and stuck in it.

So on top of the initial penetration there is also a factor that tells how a specific projectiles saves the energy. Small projectile might have higher initial pen due to high speed and small size of the projectile, but soon as it makes impact it looses all its energy and stops getting stuck in the armor. Large cannon ball if pen will carry the energy further through the armor due to its weight

[You]

On 7/31/2020 at 9:13 PM, Jan van Santen said:

Actually even a 6 pounder didnt penetrate a lo/wo hull, even below 100 m. The docu used a 6 pdr shot against a model of the "Constitution" hull. 

wo would be penetrated, lo/wo would not.

The experiment was done for "Master and Commander- The true story" docu. I cant access the actual docu atm, but the experiment can also be seen here, around 7:50

 

Its alot of different elements thats plays in, here is a really good read on the topic, with credible source at the end. 

In general im really interested to see if it actually will matter, considering the insane amount of hull damage the carronades do i still believe there will be a meta around carronades ships and angling until you're close enough

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-USS-Constitution-bounce-cannon-balls-off-of-her-hull-Was-she-really-so-superior

Edited August 2, 2020 by You

[Preechur Blackheart]

I wish we could access this documentary in English - anyone able to supply the link? Actually I question the experiment....the target wall is propped to upright using 2 flimsy braces, which would give more easily that of the target were part of a larger structure. Also, it is hilarious seeing them stuff grass down a muzzle for wadding. Makes one wonder how careful their other methods were...

[Preechur Blackheart]

Here is the full experiment (German) and it shows that a cannonball did not penetrate lo/wo  even at a 15 distance (starts at 30 mins)

https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/terra-x/die-korsaren-freibeuter-der-meere-100.html

[Lizzo]

1 hour ago, Preechur Blackheart said:

I wish we could access this documentary in English - anyone able to supply the link? Actually I question the experiment....the target wall is propped to upright using 2 flimsy braces, which would give more easily that of the target were part of a larger structure. Also, it is hilarious seeing them stuff grass down a muzzle for wadding. Makes one wonder how careful their other methods were...

I am a native German speaker, in the documentary they say that a British weapons expert has built the experiment to scale and the grass/straw is used to compress the load, as it was done in the past. Also the cannonball is moving much too fast to let the wood disperse some energy by moving. So i think the experiment is quite relevant 

[DonH]

@admin when are this changes going to be applied? is it going to be deployed with the karma system? or are they 2 separate patches? new ETA?

[Malcolm3]

8 minutes ago, DonH said:

@admin when are this changes going to be applied? is it going to be deployed with the karma system? or are they 2 separate patches? new ETA?

They will first put gunnery and wind changes on testbed (soon), while Karma is posponed

[Thonys]

so...seen the doc ..................... live oak /   white oak/  it is then...