how to improve BOARDING

[Duc De Brabant]

As I want to improve boarding mechanics that are really strange, see this link: 

 

I would like to propse some easy mechanics that will improve greatly the boarding and the gameplay diversity.

- First of all, as explained in the previous link (but not said directly), the overall accuracy of the muskets, whatever upgrades/knowledge, will NEVER exceed 16% max ... i tried it various times, and calculated it each times.  with 230+ muskets, i get only 30/35 crew .... this is STUPID as hell, the best muskets in the game makes almost nothing...
 

Solution: the upgrades values should be the "basic" values; for example, "Redoutable muskets" will set your basic musket accuracy at 40% instead of "adding" accuracy to a very low value ... (10% said by INK)


-Next, is the Marines. Trained as very effective shooters and melee soldiers onboard, they are in the game not really that effective. 

Solution: boost theirs stats by 5 or 10% to give them a deeper impact on the boarding tactics.



-Finally, the boarding cannons. There is no stats on them, no values, no numbers. players don't know how many they can get, how "good" they can be and the upgrades relatives to them are really poor, almost a non-sense.

Solution: boost their stats by 5%, show the complete stats of those guns 


For those three improvements, it would be important to show the real stats and accuracy in a separate box that can be easily made in the port UI.

I can understand the difficulty of losing a good ship in PvP server by boarding. so why not just put those improvments in the PvE server ? and what's the point of ruining PvE server with PvP things ? (locki rune, ship logbook....)
The objective here is to make boarding more fun, more immersive and better. If you, Captains, have any ideas or improvement proposals, let post them bleow 😃 

[Henry Long Castle]

Boarding in general VS NPC is "bugged". Well not bugged its just that the NPCS have too many buffs that reduce your effectiveness. You might kill 30-35 with muskets as you described vs a NPC but if that was a player it would be a different story. Muskets on his defense, easily 50 maybe 70 kills depending on various factors. 
So it is actually easier to board a player rather than an NPC in that regard.

[Lt Sekiro]

BUFF boarding? WTF

Actually boarding is very op ,full musket mod can ez win and chain board a lot of ship.

If you can't make big dmg in boarding is only cause ia use lot of book , and have improvement for nerf rush pve farm.

In pvp , redoutable musket + marines + five ring you can ez win boarding with 1/2 crew of enemy

[Slim McSauce]

There's very little good to say about boarding.
It shows the least amount of effort in anything NA.
Literally click to win. What a heckin' snore.
 

 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

15 hours ago, Duc De Brabant said:

with 230+ muskets, i get only 30/35 crew

You need specialized naval infantry, marines, whatever, to have the best drill with muskets.

Add Marines books, try with Marines 5, then Marines 10, then Marines 15, with the same amount of Muskets and reply with the amount of kills.

Much appreciated.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Hethwill

[Duc De Brabant]

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

You need specialized naval infantry, marines, whatever, to have the best drill with muskets.

Add Marines books, try with Marines 5, then Marines 10, then Marines 15, with the same amount of Muskets and reply with the amount of kills.

Much appreciated.

I am in PvE server only, so i really have no clue for PvP =/

 

yeah i fact i runned for maxed muskets and i had this score

set-up:

-redoutable muskets

-improved mast-tops (+10% accuracy)

-marines 15

-shooting tome

-boarding canons 

 

total muskets 284

 

In my last thread with INK, he said "Captain, in your example 60% is not an absolute total accuracy of muskets, this is a % value that applies to basic musket accuracy. So if you add 60% to a somewhat low sea musket accuracy of lets say 10% you will get (10%*1.6) 16% overall accuracy"

 

that is the problem: how can the best muskets in the game with all options to maximize muskets accuracy can get only 16% overall accuracy ? this is the point i'd like to expose and change... especially vs AI that have clearly too much buffs... maybe jsut change those stats or AI in PvE server then ?

Edited July 23, 2020 by Duc De Brabant

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

16 hours ago, Duc De Brabant said:

what's the point of ruining PvE server with PvP things ? (locki rune, ship logbook....)

What do you mean, "ruining"? Those do not ruin anything there.

[Duc De Brabant]

16 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

What do you mean, "ruining"? Those do not ruin anything there.

Cornusiac.... French talleyrand in game....

looting PvP things in PvE server is useless, those 2 things have no values, no point of being in PvE ... if you like to loot lot of those things more than looting some intereseting guns / doubloons / notes .... my god

Edited July 23, 2020 by Duc De Brabant

[Knuddel]

pve server... rofl...

 

so we know where that thing is comming from...

Edited July 23, 2020 by Knuddel

[Duc De Brabant]

7 minutes ago, Knuddel said:

pve server... rofl...

 

so we know where that thing is comming from...

be more precise please ? These are improvements that needs to be done

if you don't want to propose something, no need to be toxic in this topic i guess

[Tiedemann]

What your asking really for is nerfing the AI's boarding advantages. You should specify that in thread title or your thread will crushed    

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

1 hour ago, Duc De Brabant said:

n my last thread with INK, he said "Captain, in your example 60% is not an absolute total accuracy of muskets, this is a % value that applies to basic musket accuracy. So if you add 60% to a somewhat low sea musket accuracy of lets say 10% you will get (10%*1.6) 16% overall accuracy"

 

Sounds about okay  

Say 100 marines muskets, firing one volley... by RL statistics i'd say 16% hits is pretty darn good... even for Danish or United States navies marines standards in 1812... 😮 ( considered the best at that point in time ).

Given you have accuracy bonus from shooting book i'd guess one can accept the increased perfect shots.

Napoleonic wars ratio of shots per kill is 1:250 / 1:300 depending on which engagement you look at.

Shooting at sea is very different from shooting in land, even the drills are different.

 

For a GAMIFICATION of reality i'd say is pretty darn good.

 

 

[Duc De Brabant]

18 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Sounds about okay  

Say 100 marines muskets, firing one volley... by RL statistics i'd say 16% hits is pretty darn good... even for Danish or United States navies marines standards in 1812... 😮 ( considered the best at that point in time ).

Given you have accuracy bonus from shooting book i'd guess one can accept the increased perfect shots.

Napoleonic wars ratio of shots per kill is 1:250 / 1:300 depending on which engagement you look at.

Shooting at sea is very different from shooting in land, even the drills are different.

 

For a GAMIFICATION of reality i'd say is pretty darn good.

 

 

yes i totally understand this, but why saying "redoutable musket accuracy is 40%" ? this is misconception then if total accuracy gets as bas ad 16%. it has been proven by scientific researches that even at sea accuracy was quite good ( see lord Nelson that paid the price...). 

why not putting "basic" accuracy a buff ? or why not jsut nerfing AI boarding ?

and even talking about numbers, 100+ Marines, plus nearly 300 muskets, that makes almost 400 muskets firing, so hitting only 35 crew, is very few at close range.

 

here is a proof of muskets accuracy of napoleonic wars against cavalry, but it shows how good can be those muskets:

https://www.napoleonguide.com/weapacc.htm

http://kabinettskriege.blogspot.com/2016/02/how-accurate-were-regular-soldiers-in.html

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2016/02/effectiveness-of-old-firearms-iv.html

 you can see  in all those sources that accuracy at 150/200 yards is close to 50% ... and you keep saying that in the game the 16% is "good enough" ? you must be kidding, as naval engagment were 30/40 yards maximum for boarding ... even considering the "difficulties" of naval engagment, muskets needs a buff or AI clearly need a boarding nerf in all cases

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Duc De Brabant

[Henry Long Castle]

 

5 minutes ago, Duc De Brabant said:

90m = 53% of accuracy... so just imagine at 30m ( naval engagment) and you keep saying 16% with all upgrades/perks of the game and best muskets is "good" ? Seriously ??

 Mate, as @Hethwill said. Shooting on land is very different from shooting at sea. Your example doesnt fit here since you have 1 unit of line infantry in formation, most likely 3 rows of 200 or so men firing most likely using volley fire, shoot at a unit of cavalry charging them head on in an open battlefield with no cover whatsoever. Ofc the accuracy is great at 90m, miss the guy you are aiming for and either hit his horse or some guy next to him lol. Mean while at sea you have 2 ships that are being rocked by the waves even when in boarding and with sails raised. Combine that with the plenty of cover you can find on a ship  and you have that 16% accuracy.

Boarding mods like muskets are already quite good, no need to tweak them. They definitely make difference and one that is big enough.

[Duc De Brabant]

19 minutes ago, Henry Long Castle said:

 

 Mate, as @Hethwill said. Shooting on land is very different from shooting at sea. Your example doesnt fit here since you have 1 unit of line infantry in formation, most likely 3 rows of 200 or so men firing most likely using volley fire, shoot at a unit of cavalry charging them head on in an open battlefield with no cover whatsoever. Ofc the accuracy is great at 90m, miss the guy you are aiming for and either hit his horse or some guy next to him lol. Mean while at sea you have 2 ships that are being rocked by the waves even when in boarding and with sails raised. Combine that with the plenty of cover you can find on a ship  and you have that 16% accuracy.

Boarding mods like muskets are already quite good, no need to tweak them. They definitely make difference and one that is big enough.

defence stance syas all men are on the upper deck to defend against assault right ? so no (or very few) cover on the upper deck. Marines were trained to shoot from topsails and ladders right ? where do you see "lot of cover" here ? (picture show the upper deck of Soleil Royal and the sight Marines could have in boarding)

"miss the guy you are aiming for and either hit his horse or some guy next to him lol" same as in boarding, miss the guy you kill the guy next to him... so no point here

 

and no, i don't see any difference, maybe in PvP server, dunno, but not against AI.

[Slim McSauce]

Normally muskets would be going off at all times when in range, regardless of being locked into a grapple.
This game only simulates half of what muskets really did, same with boarding cannons.

[Duc De Brabant]

2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Normally muskets would be going off at all times when in range, regardless of being locked into a grapple.
This game only simulates half of what muskets really did, same with boarding cannons.

yeah, in my point half is maybe too little, especially if AI got 400% boarding buffs, one of those 2 points must be thought newly i guess ?

 

[admin]

41 minutes ago, Duc De Brabant said:

 

 you can see  in all those sources that accuracy at 150/200 yards is close to 50% ... and you keep saying that in the game the 16% is "good enough" ? you must be kidding, as naval engagment were 30/40 yards maximum for boarding ... even considering the "difficulties" of naval engagment, muskets needs a buff or AI clearly need a boarding nerf in all cases

 

I think you are mistaken in how you are approaching the calculations and thus you think its 16%. Its not 16%. You are just approaching it literally - thinking that muskets have 10% accuracy

Basic muskets accuracy (determining the damage) is 1x. So base musket damage is multiplied by 1x. If you use a better musket with better accuracy - lets say 60% your base damage will be modified by 1+0.6 = 1.6x. So if the base number is 10 then without upgrades it will be multiplied by 1x or 1.6 depending on you upgrades. If base number is 20 then it is still multiplied by the accuracy bonus modifier. 

Base number depends on the amount of crew with muskets and the amount of marines (who generally shoot slightly better). 

We can argue about the general musket damage if it is high or low historically, but the bonuses are working properly. Increasing the base hit rate thus increasing damage.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Duc De Brabant said:

yeah, in my point half is maybe too little, especially if AI got 400% boarding buffs, one of those 2 points must be thought newly i guess ?

Maybe what you're asking is not the right question. Just because you buff some numbers doesn't make the game authentic.
You're asking for boarding mechanics, not musket buffs but actual musketry as you would hope to see.

[Duc De Brabant]

actually there is a lot of things about boarding that are missing, musketry system is one (big) point, but also for the deck guns, there is no infos on them, and the stats about boarding are missing too (like the basic musket accuracy taken as reference, deck guns numbers, accuracy) values of melee attack/defense not shown etc

we discuused about musketry which is a big issue for me i guess, but maybe a UI improvment shwoing all stats about boarding (basic, upgrades, knowledge) just like the ship one is missing (the ship window showing all stats bout the ship)

This could add a clear view of boarding skills on base and upgraded ship's crew, what do you think ?

[Duc De Brabant]

14 minutes ago, admin said:

I think you are mistaken in how you are approaching the calculations and thus you think its 16%. Its not 16%. You are just approaching it literally - thinking that muskets have 10% accuracy

Basic muskets accuracy (determining the damage) is 1x. So base musket damage is multiplied by 1x. If you use a better musket with better accuracy - lets say 60% your base damage will be modified by 1+0.6 = 1.6x. So if the base number is 10 then without upgrades it will be multiplied by 1x or 1.6 depending on you upgrades. If base number is 20 then it is still multiplied by the accuracy bonus modifier. 

Base number depends on the amount of crew with muskets and the amount of marines (who generally shoot slightly better). 

We can argue about the general musket damage if it is high or low historically, but the bonuses are working properly. Increasing the base hit rate thus increasing damage.

then that a thing i said to be done, show base values in UI window like the ship one ...

 

and as i said, i tesetes the best musekt configuration in-game, and i always got 16% accuracy...

there is something i clearly don't understand here when you say damage/accuracy system. One hit will kill 1 crew right ? It won't kill 1.6 crew that has no sense, there is no wounded system yet so what's the difference between them ? only count the accuracy and number of muskets onboard right  ? 

i will check ingame mechanics and different configuration 

[Slim McSauce]

6 minutes ago, Duc De Brabant said:

actually there is a lot of things about boarding that are missing, musketry system is one (big) point, but also for the deck guns, there is no infos on them, and the stats about boarding are missing too (like the basic musket accuracy taken as reference, deck guns numbers, accuracy) values of melee attack/defense not shown etc

Well there are limitations on what can be done, but I think it's a must to attempt at a solution. I would compromise if every ship had the option to fit swivels.
Swivels along the deck and in the tops, that you shoot like regular cannons (but not tied to cannons to avoid the accuracy bug)

It's enough to give the function served by small arms fire, and maybe effectiveness could be determined by combination of all boarding mods a ship has.
So everything from musket count, grenade bonuses, and anything else related would influence the power, reload, penetration, etc of the guns

It's not perfect but a very general solution to just get a glimpse of what we're missing.

[Duc De Brabant]

58 minutes ago, admin said:

Basic muskets accuracy (determining the damage) is 1x. So base musket damage is multiplied by 1x. If you use a better musket with better accuracy - lets say 60% your base damage will be modified by 1+0.6 = 1.6x. So if the base number is 10 then without upgrades it will be multiplied by 1x or 1.6 depending on you upgrades. If base number is 20 then it is still multiplied by the accuracy bonus modifier. 

Base number depends on the amount of crew with muskets and the amount of marines (who generally shoot slightly better). 
 

here is my first set-up for today

 

Agammemnon vs LGV

upgrades:

total number of muskets: 361

knowledges: 

-book of five rings

-Marines 15

-Shooting

-Boarding cannons.

 

First round 29 crew killed; ACCURACY: 29/361 = 0.08 = 8% 

 

Second round: 28 crew killed; ACCURACY 28/347 = 0.08= 8%

and 3rd round: 27 crew killed; ACCURACY 27/326 = 0.082 = 8.2%

last round 26 crew killed; ACCURACY 26/323 = 0.08 = 8%

 

all upgrades nad knowledges has been taken to improve musket accuracy and as you can see, poor results... although it was a LGV, it would be same staitstics with other ships like Trinco, USS United States or else.

 

Redoutable muskets are of course very precise with 8% accuracy ...

[Duc De Brabant]

this mechanic is clearly not reliable anymore,

 

same ship, same knowledge, against a LGV again;

 

got like 15% more accuracy ?

 

it is also said " muskets efficiency depends on NUMBERS AND QUAILITY of the muskets" and thus not depends on damage inflicted...

So NUMBERS * QUALITY = damage inflicted to crew

 

ex here= 365 muskets * 0.53 (redoutable muskets + shooting tome + boarding cannons) = nearly 180 crew killed. Mathematical logic. this number can ofc be lowered by AI boarding skills ans a few randomness (to count "reality" onboard -let's say 15%)

 

that would become 

(NUMBERS * QUALITY) *0.85 (randomness 15%) = damage inflicted to crew (without AI boarding skills) 

 

if the AI ship has "barricades" knowledge, then

 

(NUMBERS * QUALITY) * 0.85 (randomness) =(damage inflicted to crew) lowered by 40%

 

this would be more realiable, realistic and boarding would be fun too 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Ah ! 

That depends on what the LGV has.

Enemy ship might have Barricades  and you won't know as it isn't a module.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Hethwill