Naval Action Esports

[captain silent]

i am a big fan of esports, as seen with war thunder and the gladiator tournaments, dayz and the survivor games..

so my question is to the devs and the community... how can we do the same.

could the devs develop a tournament match lobby specifically for esports gaming

and to the community is this something you would like to see/ take part in.

 

so lets use this thread to discuss what type of tornaments you would like, how you think it might work.. and please devs please i would like to hear what you have to say on the idea

[Kngsbrg]

I did spend quite a few hours in War Thunder and a member of the GAD squadron, which trained and actively participated in the gladiator tournament. I do not think e sport is that big of a deal in War Thunder. It is nice to fly against others in custom matches, but to call it e sport, because gaijin hosts a few tournaments for the clan scene, is a little over the top. It is miles and leagues and nautical miles away from anything SC2, DotA and CS offer!

 

E sport should be the very least Game Labs has to think about, maybe with version 3.x or 4.x, but it should _not_ be a priority. To force e sport is useless, first the game needs to get big enough for a solid player base.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Nothing stops anyone from finding sponsors and organizing a tournament right after the full release of the game, right ?

 

As a in-game concept no. I do not think it meets the game philosophy.

[Flip]

I wouldn't call WT or Survival Games Esports. Esports contain leagues, teams, prize tournaments.

 

The thing with Esports is you need a massive fan base to make it worth while. Competitive is different and can thrive on a small community. Esports entails mass appeal like CoD, League of Legends, Counter Strike, Starcraft.

[Galileus]

If the game can support e-sports scene, it will. You cater to that scene when the signs show, not before that.

 

But e-sports is much more than competitive gaming. E-sports is in huge way a entertainment. No people to watch, no e-sports. And we're not talking about fans of the game watching the game. This is not good enough.

 

IMHo NA is as far out of the fast paced action, sick micros or skill and teamwork showoffs as it can be. I don't think it would be too entertaining to watch for many people. Ergo, I don't think it should even care for e-sports unless there are signs of it being possible. Let's be frank here, from spectator's perspective, it's not all that engaging to watch...

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

America's Cup Death Match eh?   

 

It may open a little slow, but who knows, people may enjoy watching the "dog fight" section of the match when a general melee erupts.  

[captain silent]

i accept your opinions .. but the questions wasnt aimed at instant doing or whatever, its a thought for the future..

 

and if WT and survivor games arent esports then why are they streamed to a large audience on twitch, and yes there are prizes available for the winners in both events.. 

 

if in time and teh viewership is there you never know, i am just trying to put it out there..

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

i accept your opinions .. but the questions wasnt aimed at instant doing or whatever, its a thought for the future..

 

and if WT and survivor games arent esports then why are they streamed to a large audience on twitch, and yes there are prizes available for the winners in both events.. 

 

if in time and teh viewership is there you never know, i am just trying to put it out there..

 

Prizes are usually given by sponsors for the channels, machinima group for example, or by the streamers themselves out of their own audience earning, such as WOBO for DayZ SA.

 

E.Sports can act on the same premise but for the big esport games it has big sponsorship behind it. One of the requirements is that the average arena combat is under 15 minutes. That is WoT, LoL, and similars. WT never went full esports because of that article for example.

 

Remember... unless it is hosted by its own community ( like Gladiators in WT or IL-2 1946  )... it is all a biz show. Nothing more nothing less.

[Mirones]

americas cup with lynx around light houses and sandbanks with manual sail only? sure why not.

or Tallshiprace like it exist in real life.

[-KM-]

You can t make Naval Action an E-sport game but you can make it possible for it to become one.

 

I play league of Legends (worlds biggest e-sport game) for fun with friends. I m gold ranked in solo que and silver in Team so casual/ a tiny bit  abowe average. I also was a top 10 CIV V player for a quite long time. CIV V beeing a game not really fit for e-sport in format and lacking all the necessary tools but still the most popular streamers of multiplayer games had 1000+ wievers. I enjoy playing with a team in matches and also to watch e-sports on twitch or live (Dreamhack in sweden beeing very close to where i live i can go watch big e-sport events twise a year live.

 

What I personally think would be great is to give the players of Naval action the tools to make it become an E-sport. I m not a developer so I don t know how much time and effort it will take to develop the following suggestions. My guess however is that it will take a lott less than other things they plan to implement.

 

The 1 hour Sea trial format is perfect for E-sport.

What they need is in my opinion the following. Allowing sea trials roughly as it is now in the full game (1h matches)

 

Have an extensive ranking system for the sea trials. Divisions, like bronze, silver and gold or simply points. Modes like duel, 5v5 and 10v10, stats for the individual player about kills DKA etc.

 

A matchmaking system with picks and bans, Team ranked vs other teams of somewhat equal skill.

 

Becasue of the ships beeing very different in strength it is probably good to have a point system where each team get to "buy" ships for X points. Where the big ones cost a lot more than the smaller. Bans would be good in order for the developers to see if they priced a ship to low making in meta. If a ship gets banned all the time they will know they have to make it cost more points.

 

You can also have a limit to how many ships of each class each team can have in order to force diversity.

 

A good spectator mode where state of each fleet is showed etc.

 

If they give the tools the sea trials can become an E-sport with enough streamers, big enough community etc.

 

If not, then I still think it could become a nice diversion and fun game within the game.

[Zeal]

The 1 hour Sea trial format is perfect for E-sport.

What they need is in my opinion the following. Allowing sea trials roughly as it is now in the full game (1h matches)

 

Have an extensive ranking system for the sea trials. Divisions, like bronze, silver and gold or simply points. Modes like duel, 5v5 and 10v10, stats for the individual player about kills DKA etc.

 

A matchmaking system with picks and bans, Team ranked vs other teams of somewhat equal skill.

 

Becasue of the ships beeing very different in strength it is probably good to have a point system where each team get to "buy" ships for X points. Where the big ones cost a lot more than the smaller. Bans would be good in order for the developers to see if they priced a ship to low making in meta. If a ship gets banned all the time they will know they have to make it cost more points.

 

You can also have a limit to how many ships of each class each team can have in order to force diversity.

 

A good spectator mode where state of each fleet is showed etc.

 

I'll preface this by saying I am not the biggest fan of eSports as the competition can get very fierce and that's not really my scene, in saying that:

 

I think this is a good idea.  I think though that an eSports component would have to be kept separate from the main game in terms of things like rewards and progress etc... so as not to negate or trivialize player crafting for example.  If you can just win currency or in game items people could be less interested in participating in game content so to speak.

 

An interesting thought, would having an eSports component detract from the main game in terms of audience and player population?  If people are just watching broadcasts etc... it may misrepresent what the game is truly meant to be i.e. open world sailing game.  Just a thought.

[-KM-]

 

I think this is a good idea.  I think though that an eSports component would have to be kept separate from the main game in terms of things like rewards and progress etc... so as not to negate or trivialize player crafting for example.  If you can just win currency or in game items people could be less interested in participating in game content so to speak.

 

Yes. I agree 100% that progression in "sea trials" should be kept 100% separate from the MMO part.

 

For two reasons. One that you mention; the risk that people would just level up in the sea trial mode and not play the MMO if they could get XP there.

 

But also because if they could level up and gain strenght through xp and progress in "sea trial mode" it woud undermine the e-sport possibility. The idea with e-sport is that skill is the only deciding factor. Hence if they make a ranking system and an arena event for that purpuse, everything have to be "unlocked" for everyone and the teams should only be restricted in that they have to spent a limited amount of points before each match on each team "buying" ships, upgrades etc.

 

The only reward should be higher ranking when they win and each match the teams start over with the same amount of points and same posibilities as before.

 

When it comes to real money. Well if the game get enough views on twitch and enough public intrest I am sure money will come to in time with sponsors etc. That is what i ment with giving the posibility. You can not make it an e-sport but you can give the tools for it to become one.

[Galileus]

Splitting the community and giving you an ability to get all out of the game not even running the main mode just so that maybe, possibly, coulda, perhaps, perchance there will be an e-sport that is in no way connected to the main game they want to make...

 

See my point?

[-KM-]

Splitting the community and giving you an ability to get all out of the game not even running the main mode just so that maybe, possibly, coulda, perhaps, perchance there will be an e-sport that is in no way connected to the main game they want to make...

 

See my point?

...or attract more players:

Players who are intrested in playing matchups and only fight but not so much into roaming the seas getting XP, crafting etc but just love to duke it out on the seas fleet vs fleet 

Players who like the MMO part, romaing the seas, crafting and all that good stuff, but who just think those big battles between guilds happen way to faar appart in the MMO and want a distraction from the said XP, crafting etc once in a while by duking it out fleet vs fleet.

Players who dont give a **** about duking it out fleet vs fleet and just want to gather XP, explore, craft etc.

 

I fail to see how the existance of one thing rule out or even deminish the existence of the other.

 

...see my point?

[Galileus]

I fail to see how the existance of one thing rule out or even deminish the existence of the other.

 

Suggesting something is worthwhile is one thing, suggesting adding a whole new game to the game will be effortless, won't at all affect the other one and somehow everyone can happily work on both projects at the time is another.

 

An arena mode being part of MMO game, locked to the MMO progression, bound to MMO money for taking part in it and being a part of MMO? Sure, both instances get something out of it. Developing and balancing a separate arena mode apart from MMO can and WILL diminish the amount of time and care that goes to the MMO. Rules of nature.

[Kngsbrg]

thread TL;DR: competitive is no problem, but e-sports needs a big player/fanbase.

 

As I said, you can not force e-sports. You need the people behind it for the advertisement to make it worthwhile.

[captain silent]

i know you cant force e-sports .. but who would have thought all those years ago when games like LoL came out that itself would become one, yes it may take years for the game to join the e-sports arena but thats my point.. its not an instant thing.. i know it could take time.

 

i also believe that both a competitive arena and the main game should be kept seperate, thus leaving it to the players choice what they want to do.. maybe have the progression locked to teh arena, ie. if your only at the brig you can only take the brig into the arena.

 

any game that has a competitive side to it and this game does, ie battles have a right to join the competitive world.

 

and as some has suggested it needs not only player/fanbase but.. also sponsorship, well lets look at the game and see what kind of companies could be sponsors, well theres those companies that have an interest in sailing, or anything to do with things around sailing, theres also the gaming companies like razer or other gaming accessories.. if it interests them they will come.

 

i understand that some of you say NO. that is your perogative, but if / when the game is at full swing maybe the no's are a minority view, what then should the game not progress because of a few.. same way that people suggest implimentations for the game and are shot down by the few..

 

this is an idea for the future .. and thats my point.

[-KM-]

Splitting the community bby adding a compettitive arenamode I personally dont really beleave in. One does not rule out the other but rather compliment.

 

First of all looking at other games it is rather the case that both help different players that once they get hocked one one thing they want to try out the other.

 

Second. An arena mode or sea trials is a really good compliment to the MMO. Wouldnt you like to be able to try out a ship in battle and sailing before deciding what shiptype to build and putting time and effort into building it ingame? Now, I do not know yet what type of penelty there will be for loosing a ship in the MMO but it is likely there will be one. You might actually loose the ship. This will make players carefull about when and how to fight. At the same time wouldn t you like to be able to just once in a while take a ship to full battle and fire those double shots at close range without the fear of loosing all the time and effort you put into that ship?

 

Now there is several examples of arena mode beeing mplemented in MMOs. Take guild wars for example. They both have a battlefield where you use your character with all the xp and equipment (but no risk of really loosing anything) They also have an arena mode where everyone start at equal basis regardless of level and can try different weapon setups and skills and duke it out competitivly if they so like.

 

 

I undertand the argument that developing an interface and ranking system going from a pure sea trials as it is today to a competitive arena means spending developing time that could have been spent adding more stuff to the MMO. Since I am not a developer I have no idea how much time and effort there is that needs to go into adding the interface and rankingsystem needed and I am not saying this should be top priority by any means. However from what I have seenso faar and my own experience of e-sport and what is needed in order for it to work I woudlnt think there is such a big time investment compared to the other things they got planned. It seems that a lot of people asking for the pre-made teams to become possible so that clans can duke it out against each other. That is one part of what is needed. The second part is a ranking system. Well they allready got a basic one and I don t think that would take a lot of time to extend a bit (mainly just sorting some data and present it). They also need a matchmaking system based on said ranking. There could of course be a ranked and a non-ranked arena.

 

When it comes to balansing. Well they dont rly need to balance the ships as long as they have a fixed total cost each team can spend and different costs for the ships. With picks and bans for each team they can very easy keep track of what ships getting banned all the time and just increase the cost for that ship. That wont take more than increasing/decreasing the number that decides that ship X cost X points.

 

The current sea trials are basicly 90% of what they need for a competitive arena mode. If they only made it possible to make pre made teams (as it once was possible allrdy and exist in the current code) the rest the community could arrange on a separate webpage if needed. 

 

An example of that is CIV V. They have no biult in ranking system or competitive arena. Yet there is a player community who built a webpage with rankings, tournaments etc and the players themselves arrange picks and bans of different CIV:s through steam before starting a game. Granted the competitive scene of Civ V is quite small.

 

What I try to say is that the part that is needed to make it possible to have competitive matchups if it would only be possible to make pre-made teams in the lobby apart from what allready is there in sea trials is so small that a bunch of friends with some computer knowledge easely could put it togheter on an external site in a few weeks so I dont beleave that the developers would have to spend that much time implementing it if they wanted to.

 

regards

[Jeheil]

Lol, initially I thought you had just misspelled escorts

 

Firstly, lets assume that the 'PvP arena, currently called SeaTrials is completely separate from the core game (open world), ie doing well in one has no effect (bar your own skill development) on the other.

 

 Assuming this, then I think there is kinda 2 levels to this ;

 

1) Facilitated PvP : there is facilitating organised 'tournament/league/team play' ranking systems, match making, 'fleets (or whatever teams would be called)', seasons, genres, spectating, replays, post match analytics etc as well as the balance of things like crew progression.....

 

1a) Persistent PvP team world :  perhaps even a derivation of this could be a persistent team 'world' where over a 'season' you aim to control portions of a map (akin to Clan Wars)....this needs a big player base though to work...and a commitment to facilitate from the gaming company.

 

2) Genuine Team Sport : Then there is the ability to render this as a consumable to a viewing public. A genuine eSport.

 

I think 1 : Facilitated PvP,  is eminently do-able, a great way to attract the 'drop-in' gamer who can't afford the tic-toc to commit to open world, as well as enabling the 'hardcore' pvp-er. This alone would be a positive marketing wing of the game, with open-world targeted at a different player base (with of course some doing both). Akin (and don't lynch me) to the PvP minigame within World of Warcraft. There were plenty of folks who played the MMO (open world) who did little more than tinker in PvP and transversly there were those who only PvP'd and some who did both. The game (or perhaps franchise catered very well to both). Same can be said of guild wars 2.

 

So I think this facilitated PvP at the very least would be/could be an excellent standalone gaming experience (utterly aside tot he open-world MMORPG type game).

 

Persistent Team PvP (1a) would require a large player base and would possibly evolve from the success of (1)

 

I think Genuine eSport (2) then very much depends on penetration and 'how well' one can spectate, I dont play Dota or LoL but still watch some of the big tourines (I have tinkered with MOBA's) and they basically make for good spectator sport. Small field, good team combo-mechanics and a very clever interface to see team progression, spectate etc. I was a World of Tanks player, great game, but as an eSport, despite its large player base, it simply didn't feel 'right' as a more casual observer.

 

I am not convinced that NA 'Sea-Trials' would make the spectacle needed to be an eSport. But I am convinced it would make for excellent 'PvP' Moba-esque gameplay (seatrials as per point 1).

 

TL:DR : Then please dont comment

[Destraex]

This would possibly force traditional balance. If so then def hope not.

[-KM-]

This would possibly force traditional balance. If so then def hope not.

Not at all. Let me explain why. I earlier said that the only thing the devs would need to do in order to enable competitive games in NA is to mkae it possible to make pre made teams. That is make it possible to choose the players in your team aswell as who you are up against.

 

Now for agruments sake lets assume they do that. Now you and me and a bunch of others want to play competitivly so we start a steam group. In order to make it balanced we agree on some rules. For a 5v5 each team get to ban one of the ships in each ship class and then pick 1 st rate ship, 2 second rate and one third or fouth rate ship. Now team A bans Vic and Team B ban santisima. Then both teams pick Bellona. Team A ban Consti and team B ban surprise and both teams pick Trinc, Then team A ban Yacht and Team B band Brig and Borth teams pick cutter.

 

Now you will have two teams both consisting of 1 Bellona, 2 Trinc and 2 cutters against each other. Quite balanced i think.

 

We could continue the strain of thought because I did state that the enabling of pre made teams was the only thing needed of the devs in order to make competitive play possible. Lets say our steamgroup grows and the teams and duelists want to have some type of ranking, Now among this growing numbers of people in the steam grop there are a few with some basic computer knowledge. They put up a webpage where people register and input wins and losses. After a while people want a bit more than just wins/loss reccord and some also argue that some players only duel newbies in order to get a high score. As a solution they use a freeware software with that uses an algoritm (same one most chess sites ranking work) that gives points for win/loss depending on relative ranking between the players in the game. Thus making it high risk/low reward playing against a low ranked player for a high ranke done asnd vice versa.

 

This is where the CiV V MP community is at. Some 3k members and an external ranking site. Every thing is run by a steam community and some dedicated players.

 

Now this is competitive play not e-sports.

 

Lets asume this becomes very popular. Some players start to have 1k+ viewers on twitch, it get some coverage on gaming sites and the community for competitive NA play grow well past the 10k, the steam groupchat start to become q bit to crowded and the simple matchmaking consisting of asking for teams to play against in the steam groupchat start to become a bit messy and clunky with so many teams looking for someone to play the DEV team decide to aid the community by impementing aid for competitive NA gaming. They include an internal ranking, Automated matchmaking and a spectatormode with autozoom to where the action is aswell as good overviews of the overal state of each team.

 

It is first now we r talking dev time put into this. And that of course is not a high priority as it is now. 

 

After a while the twitch streamers that had 1k+ now have some 5k+ wievers and some hardware companies want to sponsor an NA tournament... now its growing into an e-sport.

 

So you see. To just enable competitive gaming they only need to make it possible for pre-made teams. No balancing of ships, no major input of dev time. All but that the community can handle if there is enough interest up to a certain point.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

 

 

 some hardware companies want to sponsor an NA tournament...

 

Some ? Whom ? Hard facts are business. Company names mean business. "Some" is nothing.

 

As I put up before, any community member can design a tournament and have it rolling once development is further down the line.

You want to do it ? Go for it and start organizing things. Once we get some sort of team versus team arenas then everything can kick off.

 

Other than that is simply ideas one throws into a forum and hopes someone does the whole thing and has the work to do it...

 

E-Sports as it is known, check website, is not feasible with NA for prize awards and money pay to players. E-Sports has a specific list of things that the games must meet before they even hope to reach the money leagues.

 

One example is World of Tanks. Premium ammunition was changed due to those constraints and mandatory regulations and therefore started to be bought with "silver".

 

An entire game was changed because of official E-Sports.

[-KM-]

Heithewill_Khan: did you even bother to read all I wrote? Since if you did you must have seen that my point was that to play it competitively all we need is the possibility for pre-made teams and that if we in some distant future have a situation with 10k+ players and a big competitive community + in a distant future implementations of some aspects into the game then It might, could, there is a possibility it might grow into an e-sport.

 

So: In short point being. To be able to play competitively we only need possibility for pre-made teams. No balancing. Nothing else. Not at this point and not for a very very long time.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Yes I did. The text wasn't directed at you particularly but to the overall discussion  

 

Pre made teams was possibly before if I read correctly some other thread but for obvious TESTING ALPHA reasons it was disabled.

 

In short, every game has its own competitions. ESports is another thing completely. I reckon there is a confusion in interpretation.

[captain silent]

In short, every game has its own competitions. ESports is another thing completely. I reckon there is a confusion in interpretation.

 

 

i think that is partly my fault saying e-sports.. my used it as a context for competitive play..