To Teamspeak or not to Teamspeak - that is the question

[Tom Pullings]

I don't see how TS allows people to do anything chat does not.  It's true that chat doesn't presently have any feature that would allow one to review past messages, but then TS doesn't either.  In both one can simply say, "Could you repeat that?"  One can call on their buddies in team chat just as easily as in TS when getting sneaked up on.  I'm not sure I see anything unique to TS that provides any additional advantage.

[Grim DeGrim]

I don't see how TS allows people to do anything chat does not.  It's true that chat doesn't presently have any feature that would allow one to review past messages, but then TS doesn't either.  In both one can simply say, "Could you repeat that?"  One can call on their buddies in team chat just as easily as in TS when getting sneaked up on.  I'm not sure I see anything unique to TS that provides any additional advantage.

When OS PVP arrives, I'll take my group (with voice comms) versus your group (without voice comms), and we can do battle.  Assuming equal skill & ships, the team with the more efficient comms will wiin.

[Tom Pullings]

Actually, I'd say even in the absurdly remote possibility of a battle with "equal skill & ships," a fight between two such groups in this game with such extended maneuvering and time of battle, efficiency of comms would wind up making very little difference.  I suspect "efficient comms" would in fact be pretty far down the list of what would decide such a battle.  

 

And in the battles we'll actually be in, without "equal skills and ships," "efficient comms" will be even further down the list.  

 

How much communication does there need to be?  Focus a particular ship?  Maneuver in such and such a direction or group?  Come help me?  It's not like these things turn on a dime or zip along such that getting those comms out quickly makes the difference between life and death.  

 

Maybe I'm not seeing something, but that's how it looks to me.

[Grim DeGrim]

It is easier to convey an idea via voice comms then trying to type it out, especially in the heat of battle. ESPECIALLY with someone whom has no idea of what maneuver you are trying to instruct.

A good example, trying to example to someone tonight, via type:

ME: "Pass the enemy ship on their left, volley with your right broadside, 180 and then volley with your left broadside. You will get 2 boradsides to the enemies 1. Since we're doing it together, we will get 4 broadsides into his LEFT armour to the single broadside that he fired".

HIM: "I don't get it"

ME "...........***Doesn't matter cause it too late by this point*********"

What took close to 15 seconds to type out would have only taken 5 verbally.

If I need a block, or to make a sudden cutting turn in front of a mate...as in now, frig typing, it sure is helpful that I can just announce it in teamspeak. What's the alternatives:

1. Type then make the maneuver (which might be too late).

2. make the maneuver and HOPE that my teammate is paying attention and not in gun view.

3. Manage to lock rudder, turn sails, AND type...and hpe that my teammate actually reads it.

It is not even close to argue that typing communication is on equal terms to voice comms. The written word cannot convey as well as the voice.

[Grim DeGrim]

But I'm not sure what it is you are arguing to prove in this thread, other than to argue...

I will use voice comms not matter what is said here. You have already agreed that it cannot be stopped. So...? What are we talking about?

[Crankey]

Actually, I'd say even in the absurdly remote possibility of a battle with "equal skill & ships," a fight between two such groups in this game with such extended maneuvering and time of battle, efficiency of comms would wind up making very little difference.  I suspect "efficient comms" would in fact be pretty far down the list of what would decide such a battle.  

 

And in the battles we'll actually be in, without "equal skills and ships," "efficient comms" will be even further down the list.  

 

How much communication does there need to be?  Focus a particular ship?  Maneuver in such and such a direction or group?  Come help me?  It's not like these things turn on a dime or zip along such that getting those comms out quickly makes the difference between life and death.  

 

Maybe I'm not seeing something, but that's how it looks to me.

 

You are not seeing that this is a MMO where people join partly for the content, partly to be social while gaming.

 

For those not interested in being social i guess they can always be loners carrying out PVE activity or be a drag on a team with TS (And they will be !) If you;ve ever play WOT Clan wars, you will know what I am speaking of.

 

How many times have people had to request a ship to manouvre as it is on a collision course, or needs to make room for another ship wanting to fire its guns but friendly ship blocks the target. The only effective way that almost guarantees the recipient knowing is to voice your requirement. By the time you have typed and hope the recipient sees the small chat box the collision or lost broadside has occurred.

 

We don;t have a team of signal midshipman yelling in our ear that a collision is about to happen or that they have signal flags ready to fly etc.

 

It is a game and trying to outlaw voice comms is ludicrous as you cannot force people not to be in them.

 

I have no problem with someone not using comms at all but that is their choice, and if choosing a team for an important match, I would rather take a surprise in comms, than a Victory who wasnt.

[mouse of war]

I started this thread not to argue that TS should not be used, or to say that it was possible to stop it being used (tho' there is a slight possibility that that could be done, or at least make using TS cumbersome).

 

What I wanted was a debate about how TS effects game play - out of interest more than anything else.

 

Consider this scenario. You capture a prize then use it to get past the shore batteries that guard a port - they think it's on their side. This is a classic tactic and a lot of fun but couldn't happen in the TS world because as soon as any ship gets attacked everyone knows about it

 

I've just read the fantastic book: Frigates, Sloops & Brigs by James Henderson - it looks at lots of the small ship combats of the period and many, perhaps even the majority of the fights had an element of deception / surprise that simply won't be available to us in a world with TS.

 

And in the open world we will have to be more careful with our ships. Will we ever choose to fight when we know for certain (through a TS equipped scout) that the odds are against us? Will careful captains and perfect communications inevitably mean that an outnumbered side will not leave the safety of their port?

 

And what is the term for the nautical equivalent of camping anyway?

 

 

nb. again, this not is not an argument against TS, it is being thoughtful about how TS will effect the game

[James Rackham]

Given that you cannot stop people using teamspeak the whole question is moot, what you need to think of is how can i adapt the tactics used to accommodate the fact we have instant communications, I think that is going to be a much more interesting debate, for example coordinated fire, this used to have to be arranged prior to a battle as signals and communications are impaired during battle due to the smoke from the guns and the long distances involved in sending the signals (one thing i think is needed is WAY more smoke when firing the guns that persists more on the battle)

[Kpt Beowulf aka Kpt Ahab]

But I'm not sure what it is you are arguing to prove in this thread, other than to argue...

I will use voice comms not matter what is said here. You have already agreed that it cannot be stopped. So...? What are we talking about?

If it bores you why do you continue reading/commenting?

[Kpt Beowulf aka Kpt Ahab]

I started this thread not to argue that TS should not be used, or to say that it was possible to stop it being used (tho' there is a slight possibility that that could be done, or at least make using TS cumbersome).

 

What I wanted was a debate about how TS effects game play - out of interest more than anything else.

 

Consider this scenario. You capture a prize then use it to get past the shore batteries that guard a port - they think it's on their side. This is a classic tactic and a lot of fun but couldn't happen in the TS world because as soon as any ship gets attacked everyone knows about it

 

I've just read the fantastic book: Frigates, Sloops & Brigs by James Henderson - it looks at lots of the small ship combats of the period and many, perhaps even the majority of the fights had an element of deception / surprise that simply won't be available to us in a world with TS.

 

And in the open world we will have to be more careful with our ships. Will we ever choose to fight when we know for certain (through a TS equipped scout) that the odds are against us? Will careful captains and perfect communications inevitably mean that an outnumbered side will not leave the safety of their port?

 

And what is the term for the nautical equivalent of camping anyway?

 

 

nb. again, this not is not an argument against TS, it is being thoughtful about how TS will effect the game

This is again a good example of how to handle the exploit factor in games. Be it stream sniping by people who follow the twitch channel of players or other given possibilities - people will search for every possible way to use legal means for cheating. There has to be possibilities for players to efficiently play a game like this w/o using voice comms. Or it has to be announced in the games description that it´s very hard to impossible to play the game w/o this feature.

 

Again - I think that if this game goes public things change pretty drastic because it´s not only that reduced PvP thing it is now. If it turns out that you can´t play the game as it was originally laid out because people ruin it by looking for loopholes than people have to decide themselves if they want that to happen.

 

I don´t know what means developers have to influence aberrations of that kind. Paywall maybe...   ;-)

[Clinch]

It would be great if the game had some voice com built in but would only be available to ships near each other, would be a slight delay from sender, and limited the com to 10 seconds every 5 minutes of gametime or something.  The fact of the matter is that people would still use ts so i guess it would be useless.

[Megiddo]

I've been on TS a few times and the amount of discussion is fairly simple, turn right... now, target so-and-so.  Or other discussions on previous games.   Something that could be typed (and is sine not all have TS).

But remember these ships (bigger ones anyway) had crew members dedicated only to communications.

 

An ability to view past coms would be good (like L is for damage logs).

 

Not saying TS doesn't give you an advantage... but not a large as you might think.

I also see no reason not to install it... it's free and at least you could listen.

[Tom Pullings]

I'm not sure if I was singled out in the question as to why argue just to argue?  I'm not arguing.  I'm participating in a conversation that interests me and don't yet see by the examples provided that there is any advantage to TS over chat for this game.  That's what I think everyone is doing so far (with some digressions).  

 

I'm a veteran of many MP games where TS is used (including many air combat sims).  In some of those it provides an advantage, in others it is merely a welcome convenience.  In others is is mostly social.   I understand the social aspect (and am in a clan in WoT, where voice comms actually do make a difference in platoon or tournament play, but are also often just used for sociability).  

 

I understand that the OP is asking how it might affect gameplay or give an advantage.  That's what I was responding to. What Grim describes strikes me as a case of micro-managing, which, besides being something I'm not sure is actually helpful, is certainly not something I would want, and isn't certain to produce the desired result on voice comms either, particularly in a crowded "room" with others calling out such commands as well.  

 

But I'm clearly mostly thinking about the current PvP.  What Mouse describes above in possible OW play does seem to me to pose a potential impact on game play.  I hadn't thought of that.  I suppose that when an enemy ship is attacked, everyone on TS together with the attacked ship will know.  But then, isn't it possible that the attacked ship will have access to some kind of chat that would also allow him to alert his defenses, etc?  

 

I do hope some element of deception will remain possible, because that does strike me as being a possibility for OW play that would be a shame to lose.  

[Grim DeGrim]

As the text in these posts seem to be unable to convey the benfits (let alone the points desire to be made), perhaps we should get on voice comms to discuss I am certain in a much shorter period of time and in a highly effective manner, that we can arrive at common position. I'll even be able to hear what you're saying and be able to determine from the tone of your voice that you are not being argumentative.

Gameplay is no different. My examples are exactly the types of issues a group leader runs into. Even something as simple when you start typing while turning, only to have to hit escape before finished.

Text chat is adequate for most applications in game, but it is not BETTER than voice comms. If you can agree with that statement then the benefits of voice over text should be obvious.

[mouse of war]

It would be great if the game had some voice com built in but would only be available to ships near each other, would be a slight delay from sender, and limited the com to 10 seconds every 5 minutes of gametime or something.  The fact of the matter is that people would still use ts so i guess it would be useless.

 

TS does produce a SDK that allows games devs to build in a voice client. Perhaps a built-in voice client would block the use of external TS? If so it might be possible to limit the voice communication in many ways.

[Galileus]

TS does produce a SDK that allows games devs to build in a voice client. Perhaps a built-in voice client would block the use of external TS? If so it might be possible to limit the voice communication in many ways.

 

Back to "let's play with pen & paper". Even if you could stop TS, why do it? If you want to make the game as bad as possible, you can just make it buggy.

[Grim DeGrim]

I can use Mumble or Raid as alternatives (I'm making the assumption that this SKD thing blocks 3rd party TS?).

While it is noble (?) to try and simulate delays in comms, the use of 3rd party cannot be stopped.

"Can't stop the signal, Mal."

[Flip]

TS does produce a SDK that allows games devs to build in a voice client. Perhaps a built-in voice client would block the use of external TS? If so it might be possible to limit the voice communication in many ways.

 

 

Hahaha no. First of all TS is only one of MANY voice communication programs, and there will ALWAYS be a way around it.

 

If they ever could or would make NA a game that blocks another program on your PC that isn't anti hack, and even then those don't block said program they simply ban you, it may as well be malware and boycotted at all cost.

 

Just embrace teamspeak, welcome to the internet, designed to let you communicate instantly, which also lets the game work. Maybe the server should only send packets by carrier pigeon, now wouldn't that be fun?

[Brigand]

TS does produce a SDK that allows games devs to build in a voice client. Perhaps a built-in voice client would block the use of external TS? If so it might be possible to limit the voice communication in many ways.

 

It is absolutely impossible to prevent the owner of a computer from running any software he chooses to.

 

Sure, you can try... but, even companies such as Valve can't make it happen. Instead spend a lot of resources on trying to tackle every new trick cheaters come up with asap. It is an ever lasting battle which cannot be won (background reading).

 

Instant communications are a given. Everything mechanic in game simply has to be designed with this in mind.

 

~Brigand

[Grim DeGrim]

What Grim describes strikes me as a case of micro-managing...

To close the loop, what I've described are 2 scenarios, where in a close match, these are critical moments that can tip the balance in battle. Executed correctly as a group, win. Executed incorrectly, lose. Competitive PVP will be decided in those moments. Voice comms impacts are such that there is a higher level of efficiency in having that communication delivered quickly, and confirmation back that it was hard clearly. Text chat does not provide this ability with even close the level of efficiency.

[Grim DeGrim]

PS - I've had many matches where we don't even speak on comms. But when we do, there is an impact on game that occurs that is more efficient than typing, as we are not constraint on keyboard punching.

[mouse of war]

Back to "let's play with pen & paper". Even if you could stop TS, why do it? If you want to make the game as bad as possible, you can just make it buggy.

 

"let's play with pen & paper" - nice strawman! But, more seriously, imagine if it were possible to restrict TS coms to within a fleet when they are in sight.

 

All the exciting things that characterise the period could still take place. I can't believe you wouldn't want to be able to (say) cut out a merchant ship by flying false colours in a prize ship that you had just taken? 

 

Not going to happen with unlimited TS

[mouse of war]

PS - I've had many matches where we don't even speak on comms. But when we do, there is an impact on game that occurs that is more efficient than typing, as we are not constraint on keyboard punching.

 

 

To close the loop, what I've described are 2 scenarios, where in a close match, these are critical moments that can tip the balance in battle. Executed correctly as a group, win. Executed incorrectly, lose. Competitive PVP will be decided in those moments. Voice comms impacts are such that there is a higher level of efficiency in having that communication delivered quickly, and confirmation back that it was hard clearly. Text chat does not provide this ability with even close the level of efficiency.

 

Yes, TS is more efficient - and so are laser cannons. So you can see how efficiency is not really an argument for TS or anything else.

 

AND if your team is super efficient then so is the opposing team. So no net advantage. - so again efficiency is not an argument for TS

[mouse of war]

It is absolutely impossible to prevent the owner of a computer from running any software he chooses to.

 

Sure, you can try... but, even companies such as Valve can't make it happen. Instead spend a lot of resources on trying to tackle every new trick cheaters come up with asap. It is an ever lasting battle which cannot be won (background reading).

 

Instant communications are a given. Everything mechanic in game simply has to be designed with this in mind.

 

~Brigand

You would think so but when you run certain applications, specifically those that use a MDI - trying to run it again only results in a new document within the first application. ie. you can't stop an application running but you may well be able to stop multiple instances of that application running. And if there was TS within NA the it possibly could stop an new instance of itself running. Of course people would find a way round it but there might be a limit to how much time and trouble they would put to doing so to cheat a computer game

[Galileus]

"let's play with pen & paper" - nice strawman! But, more seriously, imagine if it were possible to restrict TS coms to within a fleet when they are in sight.

 

All the exciting things that characterise the period could still take place. I can't believe you wouldn't want to be able to (say) cut out a merchant ship by flying false colours in a prize ship that you had just taken? 

 

Not going to happen with unlimited TS

 

No, I would not. I would not like to see my freedom limited in any way. I would not like to hear I cannot speak to my friends while playing this game. I would not like to be forced to use in-game comms and have others hear me and my friend talking about our next podcast. I would not like to be cut off from anyone I know because "shitz son, this game too real!".

 

I would DEFINITELY not like any of that to happen becuzes immershiunz! Simply because right next to me will be a guy trying to park his corvette on the church. Heh, speaking of strawmen...