New RVR Mechanics - Descriptions and feedback

[ChineseBatman]

16 hours ago, admin said:

Ask the exploiters.
We wanted a method of delivery that has zero chance of exploiting. You cannot negotiate with Home Defence Fleets
+ Sinking HDF fleets is very dangerous, (unlike sinking them in hostility missions)

Not true Hostility fleets can be reinforced by players of nation. 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

2 hours ago, Beeekonda said:

1. I assume flags are not bound to HDF nation? I.E. I can farm Spanish HDF to get the flag and then attack US or Russian port? 

2. Is it tradable? Can sell it?

These 2 are answered in the OP. Can go anywhere and get the item. That's how other nations will be able to PB a Impossible nations ( which has no HDF ).

Item is bound to the player that looted it. Can't be traded.

But yeah, lots of questions arising. Some are definitely looking for loopholes already ... funny   ... but majority are very good questions.

Suggestion: players cannot attack HDF. Meaning they must open themselves to attack by the HDF. This is to prevent farming of low rank Home defense fleets ( if they also drop flags ) with BIG ranks.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Hethwill

[SnovaZdorowa]

4 hours ago, BigWilk said:

If your in a nation that owns more ports the "port development" upgrade should cost you more 

owns more ports  peoples

[DarkValver]

21 hours ago, SnovaZdorowa said:

OMG... where's the ship's class limit??!!111 

fir/s-fir/s lynx with flag == insta flip

Just tell me that the flag has considerable weight. Just tell me...

Hello

I think it is clear, we will have to see how much speed reduction is added...

"When sailing - captain will have slower speed due to transport and organization penalties."

[Daxav]

56 minutes ago, SnovaZdorowa said:

owns more ports  peoples

I disagree with @SnovaZdorowa. The positive feedbacks that should be controlled in the game are not player choices. Players should be free to make smart and dumb choices equally. 
That a nation has more players should not penalise the nation. The reason that a nation has too many players is because it is easy to play-and-win, and in NA, winner-takes-all. Imposing a higher cost for nations with lots of ports is realistic, in the sense that extended logistics and corruption reduce productivity, and allows for an optimum. That is, if you don't want your nation to suffer penalties for being to large, don't grow it too large. Of course, you don't wan't it to be too small, and that implies there is an optimum size. That is equilibrium. That is what we need. Players will move around in response to that. If conquering more ports creates difficulties and not only benefits, there is little incentive to continue growing, and arguably, there is little incentive to more players joining into that effort. 
Penalising port development by number of ports, as @BigWilk suggests counters nation overextension, excessive RvR, annoys a legion of crafters... all of which may help rebalance the game. I would throw in additional negative feedbacks acting over PvP (as not all players are RvR expansionists and/or crafters).

[Eduard L'Aquila]

@admin for your consideration...

Coming from the Peace Server, I thank you for not having implemented the flag mechanism but could it be made that only hostilities missions started after the initial time frame are counted towards the Port Battle counter?

It would remove the current uncertainty of "leave at the right second" and turn it into a battle for which nation/clans are more efficient in battle.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Eduard L'Aquila

[SnovaZdorowa]

2 hours ago, DarkValver said:

"When sailing - captain will have slower speed due to transport and organization penalties."

it ws added after first comments. perhaps. or im blind

[Louis Garneray]

On 5/28/2020 at 7:27 AM, admin said:

• Captain will have X minutes (currently 30) to place the flag. 
• When sailing - captain will be clearly identified by the flag above his mast on the open sea
• When sailing - captain will have slower speed due to transport and organization penalties

Not that we have been able to attack those islands very often but... Bermuda and hidden island are becoming even more a heaven for those who control them now.
Could you move the 30 minutes timer and not reduce the speed?

[Archaos]

6 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Some are definitely looking for loopholes already

Is it not better that people try and find the loopholes now and point them out, rather than wait till some nation has used them to capture a major port with the resulting s**tstorm that follows.

Personally I think the patch has just moved screening to the hostility end rather than the PB end. Any well prepared nation will have ships docked in frontline ports ready to intercept any hostility. I still believe it will give nations with large populations some form of advantage as they will have the numbers to flood the area with ships once the flag is announced.

The problems I can see for the defending nation against hostility is that the attacker will be organised and arrive in force with proper fleets, while the defender has to scramble available players and throw them into battle quickly. Having seen the performance of PuG's against organised fleets around KPR I can see the attackers will have the advantage.

There are still questions regarding who can enter the hostility battle, is it only clans who are on the friend list of the clan who own the port or can anyone from the nation join? If it is anyone then it is of course open to abuse by alt clans or clans with a grudge against the clan who own the port. What is going to happen when the port owning clan arrive with an organised fleet to kill the hostility and find they cannot enter the battle as it is already full of randoms in trash ships?

I agree something needed to be done about the screening, but lets be careful that we do not just create a totally different set of issues. People will find whatever loophole they can to gain advantage, so lets try and find and fix these loopholes quickly.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

6 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Is it not better that people try and find the loopholes now and point them out, rather than wait till some nation has used them to capture a major port with the resulting s**tstorm that follows.

You are right. Is just the way questions are made  Innocence has a price.

[CptEdwardKenway]

On 5/28/2020 at 4:47 PM, admin said:

This was always and will be always the strong point of the game. Weak nations lose and leave. . Because they cannot field the numbers.

But now whats changing. Numbers become less important. Place the flag (in instance 25v25). Have a port battle 25v25. Skill will grow faster and painful initially later it will become 10x better. Because its easier to have 25 skilled players than to have 200 player screen. 

People who complain - are those who relied on the numbers. Real pros see that 25 is all what you need in the nation now.
Why invest 1250 wood chests into a port when you can just take it from Russia now. 


That's the goal basically. Remove screen, add the skill back.

So why did you introduce another nation just to spread the playerbase even more?

And no it won't bring back skill since some nations won't even be able to bring 25 players to a port battle.

Instead of sticking to ONE mechanic and actually improve it you overthrow everything and come up with more and more complicated things.

I've got news for you: players will find and actually do exploit this aswell. You should have known better. Instead of setting limits to the whole game mechanics you coming up with this. It won't fix the main issues of the game. You focused on something that will, and that is 100% certain, be exploited again. Because some players spend more time in finding ways to bypass and exploit it than you guys actually spend in testing this game. And by testing I mean YOU guys and not US players. We will test it and we will exploit it. It will always be like this.

[Archaos]

On 5/28/2020 at 3:47 PM, admin said:

This was always and will be always the strong point of the game. Weak nations lose and leave. . Because they cannot field the numbers.

But now whats changing. Numbers become less important. Place the flag (in instance 25v25). Have a port battle 25v25. Skill will grow faster and painful initially later it will become 10x better. Because its easier to have 25 skilled players than to have 200 player screen. 

People who complain - are those who relied on the numbers. Real pros see that 25 is all what you need in the nation now.
Why invest 1250 wood chests into a port when you can just take it from Russia now. 


That's the goal basically. Remove screen, add the skill back.

I do have concerns regarding how this will work. Okay I agree the instance and the port battle will be the 25vs25 max and is fairer and the more skilled team should win. My concern is that numbers still will play a very important part in setting the port battle, all that has changed is that the attacker now needs the screen to protect the hostility instance rather than the defender needing it for the port.

Say for example GB wants to attack Truxillo, okay, they have farmed their flag and they get ready to announce the battle. Before they do that they get all the involved clans together and have everyone ready on the appropriate ships and because of their numbers have enough for 3 fleets of 25 persons. So they have one fleet with the flag and 2 screening fleets. They announce the hostility and set sail from Morro Chico which gives the defenders approximately 5 minutes warning or less in the right wind conditions (which they can wait for) till they are in a position to plant the flag. The defenders see the warning and rush to counter the hostility. It is doubtful that a sufficient force could be mustered in time to intercept the flag so that leaves facing them in the instance. But by now GB have 2 screening fleets of 25 each ready to intercept any vessels attempting to enter the hostility. So the chances of countering hostility are very slim.

I do feel that the new mechanics will give too much advantage to the aggressor as they are the ones with time to organize and prepare in advance, while the defenders have to quickly scramble a defense. Similar with the old hostility system it will be almost impossible to stop a determined attacker raising hostility, especially if they are a large nation. But with the old system countering hostility was not that important as you still had a chance to screen them out of the port battle.

Maybe a solution would be for the hostility to be announced at least an hour or two before the flag could sail, at least that way the defenders could get some sort of organised defence together.

I am assuming in all this that the same rules apply as to which ports can be attacked (i.e. the 2 closest enemy ports) and the attack windows remain the same as set by the defending clan and hostility can only be raised within that window. 

Edit: Also how big is the circle around a port that the flag must be planted in? If it is too large I am sure we will find some ports where you can raise hostility while sitting on the dock of your own port, protected by your shore batteries.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Archaos

[Captain John Keats]

5 hours ago, Archaos said:

People?  will find whatever loophole they can to gain advantage, so lets try and find and fix these loopholes quickly

So... Russia?

[Frosty]

4 minutes ago, Captain John Keats said:

So... Russia?

So... everyone.

[Daxav]

10 hours ago, Comrade FrosT said:

So... everyone.

Indeed. This is not a thing of evil players one faction. If the mechanics have a loophole, or favour one thing over another, players will find it and use it to their benefit. If mechanics have dangerous exploitable loophole, devs are responsible to fix. We can’t ask of ourselves not to use it. 
I don’t like Russia dominating everything, but don’t blame the Russian players. They are also only having fun... some of us (in other factions) apparently try to have fun against the odds though. 
let’s give the mechanics a chance and see if we can turn te map a bit.

[Stilgar]

14 hours ago, Archaos said:

I do feel that the new mechanics will give too much advantage to the aggressor as they are the ones with time to organize and prepare in advance, while the defenders have to quickly scramble a defense. Similar with the old hostility system it will be almost impossible to stop a determined attacker raising hostility, especially if they are a large nation. But with the old system countering hostility was not that important as you still had a chance to screen them out of the port battle.

Maybe a solution would be for the hostility to be announced at least an hour or two before the flag could sail, at least that way the defenders could get some sort of organised defense together.

Valid concern. But would 1 hr change much for the defender in your example? Another problem is that attackers might not come at all ... 

Another question: how close to the port flag needs to be planted. If close enough for defender to just sail from port and join the flag mission, then defender would not need 3 groups but just one.

Just too many questions on the new hostility system. Distance of flag planting, how many flags can be planted at once, are timers still there, will there be cooldown, how fast/slow flag bearer will be, is the old front line system still in place etc.  

Edit: In principle there are two ways to counter hostility: intercept flag before it is planted (requires numbers and quick reaction) or sending a group into flag battle event (requires smaller numbers). If both are viable, then this potentially gives reasonable chances to both large and smaller nations ... at least I hope so.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Stilgar

[Archaos]

5 hours ago, Stilgar said:

Valid concern. But would 1 hr change much for the defender in your example? Another problem is that attackers might not come at all ... 

Another question: how close to the port flag needs to be planted. If close enough for defender to just sail from port and join the flag mission, then defender would not need 3 groups but just one.

Just too many questions on the new hostility system. Distance of flag planting, how many flags can be planted at once, are timers still there, will there be cooldown, how fast/slow flag bearer will be, is the old front line system still in place etc.  

Edit: In principle there are two ways to counter hostility: intercept flag before it is planted (requires numbers and quick reaction) or sending a group into flag battle event (requires smaller numbers). If both are viable, then this potentially gives reasonable chances to both large and smaller nations ... at least I hope so.

As my example pointed out, I feel the new mechanics (even though we do not fully know them yet) appear to give too much advantage to the aggressor as they control when they attack and with what ships. Your questions only further indicate that the aggressor has the greater advantage and can use the flags to troll.

To intercept the flag before planting you need numbers and quick reaction, but the flag carrier is unlikely to be alone so you will probably need enough BR to tag a 25 man fleet of 1st rates, which will be difficult to have at short notice. I reckon if the current 2 closest ports can be attacked, then the defending nation has to keep a battle ready fleet docked up at these ports ready to go. We do not have enough outpost slots to cover that, so people will probably have to sail from further away, hence why I say there should be more warning.

You say sending a group into a flag battle event requires smaller numbers, but I do not see how you come to that conclusion. Admin already stated that hostility will be fair because it will be 25vs25 instance, so to have any chance you need to be able to field a fleet of 25 first rates to have a chance in the instance. If you look at how it will actually work out, you will first need to send in a fast spotter to find what ships they have in and where they are in the instance, you then have to organize the appropriate ships to respond with as there is no point entering with first rates only to find that the enemy are in third rates and can outrun you (this of course depends on the speed restriction of the flag carrier).

I remember the days when port battles were set by flags and the scramble to gather an effective chase for the flag carrier and at the same time organize a port battle fleet in case they planted the flag. Okay, now it will be different as you will have time to organize the port battle fleet for the next day, but the scramble to catch the flag carrier will still be the same and this time the distances they have to travel in most cases will be much shorter. People scrambling ships at short notice leads to people using any ship that comes to hand and in the rush forgetting repairs or finding they are unable to get repairs in the port and ends up in a vain attempt to stop the flag by throwing ships away against an organised attacker. Also remember that now the game has moved on a lot from those early days with the flags, in those days as I remember it there did not seem to be as much interference from other nations, but now you can guarantee that as soon as a hostility is announced then multiple fleets and solo players from other nations will converge on the area looking for cheap kills especially against the defenders who are scrambling and trying to get organised.

I am willing to see how the new mechanics work out and how they will have to be tweaked, because my concern still remains that they give too much advantage to the aggressor. 

Edit: Look at the previous hostility (even disregarding stacking), if you could react quick enough and enter the instance while there were still a lot of AI alive you stood a chance of countering the hostility with the AI help, now without AI it will be equal numbers of players with the attacker being better prepared. But in the previous system how often did the defenders manage to counter organized hostility as it was always difficult to gather sufficient people at short notice.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Archaos

[Sir Max Magic]

On 5/29/2020 at 2:58 AM, Cap Trujis said:

Belize was incredible for you, for the Spaniards it was 4 hours in front of the computer cause the British had 3 screenfleets and 1 Russian, dont see only your side, get in the place of which has no numbers.

Ofc you are right, we could hold Belize ONLY because British Nation got united fearing to lose this vital Port and even People dont care usually for RvR, showed up in their biggest ship to help defending...  

...is this bad for the game: i doubt

Would we have lost Belize with the new mechanics already in place: for sure !!!

At this time, Spain had the much better 25 Elite Players than GB had and i guess, we would had lost 8 out of 10 Port Battles if every side would had get all their plar players into

 

But @admin has to make the decision:

Do he want the best 25 Players to dominate RvR... or the strongest nation in a whole ???

 

This is a very important decision to be made, because the outcome of it will affect RvR and so the whole gameplay for ALL !!

Will Naval Action be an elite player game or a casual one...or something in between ?

 

Because, lets not fool yourself:

Even for FLAG carrying, a 25 man group will probably be enough because there cannot join more players into an instance  

So imaging, they come with 25 very experienced Captains, all in 1st Rates, they will win every battle and protect the Flag Carrier with ease...the same they will do in the following day in the Port Battle itsself !

It can be an exclusive show if game parameteres will not prevent this  

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Sir Max Magic

[Sir Max Magic]

On 5/29/2020 at 8:01 PM, Archaos said:

 

I do feel that the new mechanics will give too much advantage to the aggressor as they are the ones with time to organize and prepare in advance, while the defenders have to quickly scramble a defense. Similar with the old hostility system it will be almost impossible to stop a determined attacker raising hostility, especially if they are a large nation. But with the old system countering hostility was not that important as you still had a chance to screen them out of the port battle.

 

100 % agree on this +1

Therefore, IF we have to go with the new system, i already proposed multiple times to do it the OPPOSITE way with the 24 hour cooldown:

Get the 24 Hour Cooldown AFTER announcing the Attack...and the Port Battle directly if planting the Flag was succesful !

 

This way , the Defender has the 24 hour warning time to organize a proper defence:

Screening AND Port Battle !

Both will happen at the same day

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

On 5/30/2020 at 8:20 AM, Stilgar said:

Edit: In principle there are two ways to counter hostility: intercept flag before it is planted (requires numbers and quick reaction) or sending a group into flag battle event (requires smaller numbers). If both are viable, then this potentially gives reasonable chances to both large and smaller nations ... at least I hope so.

There's a potential number 3. The enemy players will be at normal nations doorstep trying to get a flag drop from the home fleets. You can counter their efforts by entering the battle and making sure they do not accomplish that task.

@admin regarding what I post, make sure that flag cannot be looted by players on the Home Defense Fleet side.

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

There's a potential number 3. The enemy players will be at normal nations doorstep trying to get a flag drop from the home fleets. You can counter their efforts by entering the battle and making sure they do not accomplish that task.

@admin regarding what I post, make sure that flag cannot be looted by players on the Home Defense Fleet side.

I do not think the flag can be looted if it is bound to player on drop.

I think trying to stop hostility generation by denying the enemy getting flags from HDF's is virtually impossible as HDF's can be farmed at all times and at multiple locations and with the increased attacks on HDF's due to need for wooden chests I think there will be a lot of flags dropping.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

I do not think the flag can be looted if it is bound to player on drop.

Yeah it is binded, not sure if gets binded when moved to hold or automatic to any given player ? Just making sure to remind developers that anyone on the side of the HDF should not access it if it is the case of item being moved to hold.

  

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

I think trying to stop hostility generation by denying the enemy getting flags from HDF's is virtually impossible as HDF's can be farmed at all times and at multiple locations and with the increased attacks on HDF's due to need for wooden chests I think there will be a lot of flags dropping.

Yeah, but the opportunity is there for the taking, also at whatever time. Works both ways and it is hard for attacker that wants flag. Needs to go with 5 - 6 ships to enemy capital waters. They cannot predict what will happen.

Ofc they can have screeners but that means more possibility of combat.

But also, cowards will be cowards and maybe they won't fight.

But that's human nature, not game code.

 

 

( honestly tired of rvr pros loopholes metagaming )

Edited June 1, 2020 by Hethwill

[Archaos]

26 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

( honestly tired of rvr pros loopholes metagaming )

You have to remember that the game has moved on now, gone are the days of innocence and pleasure of just playing a game set in a beautiful era. People now look to get any advantage possible to get one over on the other side. Any new mechanics have to be looked at for possible loopholes, because if they are there they will be found and exploited.

I remember the days you could sail out from KPR on a first rate to look for other groups hunting first rate AI fleets, you could announce in nation chat what you were doing and have no fears of being ganked, now you sail out like that and you are sure to get ganked.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Archaos

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

In my mind I was thinking exactly the opposite. The look for ways of winning rvr with minimal combat ( or even no pvp at all ) as opposite to having to actually fight.

[Archaos]

9 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

In my mind I was thinking exactly the opposite. The look for ways of winning rvr with minimal combat ( or even no pvp at all ) as opposite to having to actually fight.

You are correct, but you have to look at why this happens and why many are upset regarding the removal of screening. In this game the port battles are an instance where both sides have the same limit so theoretically it is an equal battle (disregarding the forts) so on average without mistakes the more skilled side should win. As the game has matured you have these almost fixed port battle groups of experienced players who continue to hone their skills to the stage where the average playerbase has little chance of defeating them in an even battle so the only way to win is to screen them out when defending or multiflip them when attacking and get an empty port battle or find some other loophole or exploit to gain the advantage.