Sea Legends: suggestions

[Bonden]

Hello Admin

A nice source of inspiration for recreating crew members who look real life humans and not robots is the DCS World module Supercarrier: crew members run and behave in a very natural and convincing way (look at 3'12-3'25, there is even one who scratch his nose ;-)).

 

[Bonden]

Sea Legends – Recreating a living warship in the Age of sail to give a true sens of immersion

Hi everybody,

To recreate the ‘wooden world’ that is a low rate warship of the age of sail is a true challenge, as it was crammed with seamen, complex rigging, guns and equipment in a very small, dimly lit, noisy and often damp space. While in NA the aim is to recreate battles in an open world, in SL the aim seems, according to the website and the first pictures, to recreate a fully functional and realistic ship, ‘from the inside’ and from the captain’s point of view. This opens the possibility to introduce visual and/or functional aspects creating the sense of immersion that were impossible to introduce in NA.

Photographical accounts of the HMS Victory, HMS Trincomalee and replicas like HMS Bounty, Privateer Lynx and the French Hermione, among others and the Master and Commander movie (hum, you noticed how fan I am) are of course useful sources for visual and functional details of the ship’s features. As regards the crew, the customs and the life aboard, an excellent source, among many others, in my opinion, is the R & L Adkins, 2009. Jack Tar, The extraordinary lives of ordinary seamen in Nelson’s Navy, Abacus (one of my favorite books on the period). I use other sources already cited in former posts, including both M. Adkin’s Trafalgar Companion and, as always, one of my favorite novel series, J Stockwin’s Thomas Kydd, which gives rich technical details. A nice way to find contemporary objects, paintings and furniture of the period is to search on antique sales websites (Pro-Antic, Catawiki, etc.). 

In my opinion, most important things for creating a true immersive feeling would be, in an ideal word :

-          Realistic light (both natural and artificial), shades and smoke effects, in and outside the ship

-        Realistic textures and thickness to wood and 'living' sails to make us feel that we are sailing a wooden sailing ship, worn or freshly repainted (rather than a plastic model)

-          Recreating important functional parts of the ship (rigging/sails, guns, gunports and tackles, anchors and cables, boats, pumps)

-          Differences in the visual aspect of the ship according to 3 very different circumstances: a) normal circumstances (with guns rigged for sea, ports closed, normal watches, etc.) b) storm/dead calm weather (with adapted rigging, limited crew on deck,...) and c) cleared for action (with all hands at station, in silence, with the decks cleared and the guns ready to fire)

 

(the Victory, painted by Turner, just after the battle, without her guns but with the deck cleared)

-          Realistic noises, voices (especially orders, songs, cheers), piping, drums and music, according to the state/activity of the ship, the time of the day (watches) and the weather

 

-          Realistic weather (visually and functionally), including storms and calms, and related roll and heel

 

-          Effect of wind, roll and ship movement on flapping, swinging, liquid, mobile or loose objects (sails, flags, hammocks, loose guns and shots, lanthorns, hanging ditty bags, liquids, etc.)

-          Detailed damage model (falling spars, ropes and blocks, rippen sails, splinters, rudder, gun dismounted, etc.) and optional wounded and killed officers and crew (with blood and cries of pain or not, this is a difficult choice I guess)

 

-          A living and working crew, in and out of battle, with most important functions/activities represented (in the rigging, at the capstan, at the guns, at the ropes and boarding; officers on the quarterdeck). 

 

Otherwise, less essential details could give even more life to the ship and the seas like:

-      Detailed and if possible functional equipment (gun equipment, galley/cooking stuff, mess services, sea chests and furnitures, officers’ cabin decoration and furniture, officers’ and crew personal belongings, galley, port tackles above the guns, sick berth, tiller and ropes, sandglasses, bells, etc.) (here, captain's cabin of the HMS Trincomalee, with furniture and port tackle)

Under, the great cabin of the HSM Victory)

-     The sensation of overcrowd ship, with hundreds men on a rather small ship (but is this possible in a video game ?)

-     Less essential but everyday crew activities (eating and drinking grog at their mess, sleeping in hammocks, cleaning the decks, wounded in the sick berth or in the cockpit at the surgeon’s table, on the chains to use the leadline, hoisting boats and stores, resting and playing, repairing sails, hull and ropes, moving objects in the hold, receiving a punishment, etc. ; officers giving orders, eating in the captain’s cabin with their servant, chatting in the wardroom, boatswain shouting at a lazy seaman, midshipmen taking the noon sun position, captain's clerk writing on his desk, etc.)

-       If possible, recreate the density and the different sizes of the standing and running rigging and the coiled ropes on the deck (they occupy an important physical place in the field of view, aside the masts, yards and sails) ; on smaller ships it would be easier...

-          Historical ports and local architectural/natural/landscape features on the coasts (lighthouses, castles, fisher villages, rocky or sandy shores, etc.   according to the place) and at sea (realistic birds, marine mammals,…)

 

-       Signalling

-       Livestock and pets aboard

 

-      Diversity of nationalities/origins, of physical aspect (skin, hair, tattoos, scars, tarred hands,…) and uniforms/clothes in the crew; diversity in appearance, skills and personality of officers

 

-          Detailed small arms and swivels

-          Diversity of situations or incidents at sea or in battle (man overboard, fight between seamen, mutiny, a friend captain's visit, being pressed at sea by a Royal Navy ship, etc.)

-          Etc... 

 

And in my opinion, the user interface could be illustrated by (adapted or not by SL artists) period paintings, drawings and engravings from contemporary painters (Pocock, Baugean, …), like in Ultimate Admiral Age of Sail. 

Some of those elements could be easily introduced in the game, other not, for sure. I don’t know what is possible and what is not (the first pictures posted by Admin are very promising !). As already said, developers have their own objectives and constraints in regard to available human resources and budget, gameplay, fps, fun and other more commercial considerations ;-).

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Bonden

[Bonden]

(sorry for the double posting I had some difficulties to edit my post ;-))

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Bonden

[EdWatchmaker]

Bonden,

You are a treasure. Please keep it up.

Much thanks and fair sailing from Capt. Ed and Seadog Wade.

 

[Sea Archer]

For traders and ships from countries with less iron industry (like the barbary coast), I would love to see old fashioned guns maybe even with stone roundshot. They might have less range and penetration, but stone would have lots of deadly splinters, when hitting something hard.

 

[Bonden]

Hi everybody,

As regards money ("gold"), I would also suggest to limit its use in the game to more or less the way it was used in reality during the period. For privateers, the money was invested by the ship owner or a group of ship owners, seldomely by the captain himself. Of course prize money was his main objective, but he was dependant on the budget granted by his sponsor for arming his ship (unless he was lucky and rich enough and decided to cruise for himself and received his own letter of marque). In a Naval career, the captain could use his own (prize) money to improve his cabin, buy extra things (high quality powder, fine food and spirits/wine, fresh paints, a nice sword, fine cloths, etc.) but he had not to pay himself for the whole fitting/arming of his ship or to pay his officers and crew of course.

So, unlike in NA or in Ultimate Admiral AoS I would not use 'gold' in SL beyond the ways a contemporary captain could earn it (mainly from his family; from his own pay; from prize money and investments) and use it (for personal expenses or in Investments). To reward the captain and make him progress in his career, honor, fame, authority and experience would be more realistic to use than only money.

Well, famous frigate captains got often very rich and it would be fun to recreate the way they could amass a fortune, but gold should not be the unique currency and the unique way to progress. For instance, a very famous/lucky/gifted privateer captain had no problem to be financed and to get a nice ship by a ship owner or a group of them, because of his reputation, not directly because of his fortune (even if he could fancy up his ship and armament with his own money).

On the other,hand, it could be nice to introduce in the game the possibility for a captain to hire a prize agent, in charge to represent him in prize court and to manage/invest his money (in a more or less honest way and with more or less success, like did Jack Aubrey's agent... ;-)).  Reversal of fortune could also be nice to introduce, for instance when an investment was too risky or when the prize was not legal and the court condemned the captain to pay for the damage done.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Bonden

[Wolfram Harms]

After looking through the suggestions, I am glad that most other "sailors" here seem to desire the same as me:
a most realistic game and simulation about the age of sailing ships.

And after reading the developers throught and plans for the game on their website, I am pretty much sure 
they have that same desire - to move away from the crash-boom-bang gaming, towards a "simulation" 
about the aera of sailing the seven seas.

Some may try to come up with hints and wishes towards the other end - but they can play NAVAL ACTION.
Don't underestimate the number of people over fourty, who have an urge for more realism rather than quick rush action.
And the have the capital to support and buy such a game/sim.
We have love for detail, patience for history, and a strong desire for deep immersion.

I do not buy dozens of games anymore - in the end, most of them are "slayer games" and quite similar to what I know already.
So now I like playing sims more, and I like to play in a world full of other people.
No bot can replace the complexity of a human mind in real time action.
No bot can replace the feeling of camaraderie, or even friendship.

And because I believe to read a very similar mindset from the Dev's announcements, I do not make any suggestions here yet,
except this one plea: stay confident to your vision - don't water it down to please the BlitzKids one more time.

I wish all in the dev team and all who want SEA LEGENDS as much as I do, a merry Xmas and a healthy & happy new year.
Later in our histories we may all remember: 2021 was the year when SEA LAGENDS was give to us...

[Sea Archer]

For Sea Legends a period shall be defined (maybe 50 years, 1750-1800) and only ships that really existed (or could have existed, since some sister ships were still aswim) in that time shall be in the game. In NA the range too big.

Then I can imagine to have some small traders (or even small navy ships) modeled in efficient ways, like using the same hull, with different colours and using the same hull model with different rigs (e.g. one brig rigged and the other snow rigged).

[MalikNightboiler]

I think for Coop, people don't only have to be another sea captain, but could also do leadership roles on your ship. 
Ex: all your friends can fill the roles of all officers, warrant officers, marine officer, etc.

[Bonden]

(transfered from the discord chat)

Hi devs,

As regards the hold management, is the detailed chart shown on your blog (winter update), with data on density and volume, the only way to manage the hold in the game ? In reality, the captain and the master (or the master only) decided the arrangement of the hold when the ship was in port or moored to be re-supplied, if necessary by going around the ship by boat to check the trim of the ship by eye only. There was no automatic calculation of the effect of arrangement on the trim (with %) as shown on the blog.

Could it be possible to provide at least an option in the game where the captain has to make his own guesses or can only get a rough estimation by the master of the effect on the trim ('Sir, in my opinion, more weight would need to be put in the bow if you want the ship to be more …" etc.) ?

I think also that, rather than volumes of specific stores, the types of container (casks, bags, boxes, nets,...) and their sizes were most important to consider for hold management, considering the dimensions of each compartment in the hold. This option would require from the captain to test the effect of the arrangement by trials at sea and to change the arrangement when back to port, after the trials.

And again, it would be interesting to keep into account the structure of the hold and the dedicated compartments (sail, ropes, bread bags, powder, etc.) in it in fighting and merchant ships. An idea could be to get the 3D plan of the ship's hold and to be allowed to arrange the different stores in it by dragging (virtual) casks, barrels, bags, etc. in the different compartments shown in the plan, with comments of the master if the captain asks for it.

It could be also interesting to have an option in which the master manages this alone, according to his skills.

At sea, the only way to change the trim would be to move shots from bow to stern (or cannon) and vice versa and to re-arrange the hold when casks are emptied by water-food consumption. It is a nice aspect of ship management imo.

Hold of the HMS Victory

Hold arrangement (each type and quantity of store are detailed)

La Recherche French stable barge 12 guns, 1787 Formerly 20-gun La Truite

Source (hi-res and more drawings) : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2100-la-taverne-du-corsaire/?p=141434

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Bonden

[Bonden]

Hello everybody

Here are nice detailed plans of a typical frigate (HMS Surprise/French l'Unité) with the structure of the hold and its compartments

(source: https://www.ctbasses.com/misc/BruceTrinque/surprise.html)

Cutaway view

The orlop deck and the hold

 

The lower deck

The upper deck

The quarterdeck and the forecastle

 

 

From Bruce Trinque's website: "

Notes on sources:  As mentioned above, the basic plans for the real HMS Surprise still exist; they can be found at my Ships of Jack Aubrey website.  The longitudinal section above is drawn from these plans, influenced by Brian Lavery's rendering of them to be found in Patrick O'Brian: Critical Essays and a Bibliography (WW Norton, 1994).  The deckplans are of my own creation, guided by what is revealed in the longitudinal plan and actual plans of two Royal Navy frigates featured in two of the "Anatomy of the Ship" volumes (published in the UK by Conway and in the US by Naval Institute Press): The Frigate Diana by David White and The 24-Gun Frigate Pandora by John McKay and Ron Coleman.  The portraits used for the Surprise's officers, with one exception, are taken from the 1805 engraving by W. Reynolds of the officers of HMS Centaur engaged in the capture of Diamond Rock.  In several cases these portraits were modified to better fit the officers of the Surprise.  The exceptional portrait is that of Surgeon S. Maturin, the original of which is rumored to hang in a Doylestown, Pennsylvania, restaurant: I have it on good authority that the image is authentic.  The quotes used to illuminate the various detail descriptions are drawn from Patrick O'Brian's various Aubrey-Maturin novels, giving preference to The Ionian Mission where feasible, but also borrowing from other volumes where appropriate.

Bruce Trinque
Amston, CT
March, 2006

"

Edited May 5, 2021 by Bonden