Mast hits / health revealed or hidden

[Liq]

4 minutes ago, Aquillas said:

My bigger concern about that is: why an armour for masts?

For hull, I can understand that a cannon ball can go through (making damages and leaks) or not (making no damage).

But for masts? A ball or a chain that hits a mast should make damages. 

No, because before mast thickness was a thing, you'd have players mowing down masts on long range, kiting, equipped with all 4 pounders. Machine gun reload, masts came down quickly

IMHO overall: Increase HP, lower thickness

[Aquillas]

6 minutes ago, Liq said:

IMHO overall: Increase HP, lower thickness

Agreed. I was about to add to my previous post that an increase of masts HP is necessary, otherwise all battles will turn in mast aiming only.

[Lt Sekiro]

bad idea i think.

If you show to ennemy , he will fast know if you use any mods mast.

When you use one , you should know by yourself when you mast will fall ( With experience).

Keep this hiden ,is the best

[Kejsaren]

1 hour ago, Lt Sekiro said:

bad idea i think.

If you show to ennemy , he will fast know if you use any mods mast.

When you use one , you should know by yourself when you mast will fall ( With experience).

Keep this hiden ,is the best

What about option nr 2 then?

[Lt Sekiro]

 

2 hours ago, Djakary said:

What about option nr 2 then?

See you own mast hp and penetration?.

No too , cause you will easily see upgrade of enemy ship ( french gunners , gunpowder ect ect) + know how mutch hit left before you lost you mast

Choose if you repair you hull or keep you repair mast if they fall when someone try to demast you is a important part of the game. The prob will that it will be more simple for everyone to know witch repair to use.

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Lt Sekiro

[JDMonster]

I was working on a detailed proposal for implementing a system that tied your sail power to a damage reduction buff for the masts.  Here's the proposal, but it's not finished and I'm still thinking things through.

***  WORK IN PROGRESS***

Proposed mast damage tweak/rework

 

Issue:

Being demasted is a death sentence in game.  Once a mast goes down, especially the main mast, you will be stern camped where you can’t fight back and have your remaining masts shot away.  While demasting did occur IRL and was even a common occurrence, ships were still able to fight and maneuver effectively.  The reason why the situation in game doesn’t reflect reality is for three reasons.

1)      Extreme accuracy of guns and broadsides

2)      Sailing at 100% sail power all the time with no consequences.

3)      Rigging/spars not being shot away

The first one is done for questions of fun.  Realistic gun accuracy wouldn’t be enjoyable, and thus my proposed fix won’t touch it in a major way.  The third one the devs said they can’t model without drastically increasing the performance requirement of the game.  The second point is what my fix intends to address.

 

Goal:

-          Reduce mast sniping by adding counter play without radically changing game mechanics

Why it’s beneficial to old players and new players alike:

-          Improve new player experience

o   Less reliance on hard find upgrades and perks

o   Being de-masted is no longer a death sentence, allowing new players to fight longer and earn more in game XP and real life game sense

-          Removes a point of contention among older players

o   Mast sniping is still a tactic, but it can be countered, like other forms of damage

§  Chaining sails can be countered by lowering sails / angling them

§  Shooting the hull can be countered by angling your hull and or only showing a particular broadside

§  Boarding can be countered by clever use of sails to keep the relative speeds of two ships up

§  Mast sniping can’t be countered

-          Increase immersion and realism of the game

o   Battle sails are now encouraged, players no longer stay on 100% all the time

o   Will help shift the PVP meta away from fir/fir speed demons

o   Increased value of tankier builds in PVP

o   As said by @admin in a demasting thread, being demasted IRL sucked, but wasn’t a death sentences.  These changes would bring that reality to Naval Action

Proposed Changes:

-          Masts still are lost when their HP hits zero

-          Lowered sails provide a damage resistance buff  to masts

-          Damaged masts provide less power proportional to their remaining HP

-          Certain mast upgrades are nerfed

Example: A Pandora facing off against a 32 lb Carronade/ 9 lb long ship common to the shallow water pvp zone.  All of the stats are from https://na-map.netlify.com/, with no modifiers included.  Tad unrealistic given the state of ship building in the game, but it is the only way to get reliable figures without accounting the thousands of possible builds.

 

Proposed damage curve

Here are a series of proposed damage modifiers *values subject to change and tweaking, these are made up for the sake of the example*

	Sail power	Damage received from a shot *	Damage received from shot when de powered *
Stopped	0%	20%	---
Dead slow	20%	30%	25%
Battle	40%	40%	35%
Slow	60%	60%	55%
Half	80%	75%	70%
Full	100%	100%	95%

 

Proposed Sail Power /

A stock Pandora’s masts have the following stat

	Bottom	Middle	Top
Health	410	273	244
Thickness	97	72	48

 

 

Now for the guns:

Gun	32 lb carronade	9 lb long
Damage	108	60
50	124	116
100	115	110
250	87	95
500	31	72

 

As you can see, both the Carronade and the long gun can reliably smash through the base of the mast of the Pandora at 100 meters, both being able to pen the middle at 250 meters, and the long being able to take out the topmasts at well past the engagement ranges we see in game.  A 32 lb carronade can take out a mast in 4 shots, 9lb long in 7.

Proposed damage curve

Here are a series of proposed damage modifiers *values subject to change and tweaking, these are made up for the sake of the example*

	Sail power	Damage received from a shot *	Shots to demast base 32/9	Damage received from shot when de powered *	Shots to demast base 32/9
Stopped	0%	20%	20/35	---	---
Dead slow	20%	30%	14/24	25%	16/28
Battle	40%	40%	10/18	35%	12/20
Slow	60%	60%	7/12	55%	8/13
Half	80%	75%	6/9	70%	6/10
Full	100%	100%	4/7	95%	5/8

 

 

I haven't finished it yet, but yeah.  Thoughts?

[p i t]

Can i suggest that if the ball pens the mast, then it shows the penetration effect. If not, then no visual penetration

[William Death]

4 hours ago, JDMonster said:

Thoughts?

Good proposal overall, but you have the masts too thick. At 100m, many ships cannot bring guns to bear on any mast, so you'll never get to penetrate the lower section. The way the penetration values for most ships are now is generally ok: rule of thumb is: 

Whatever the largest caliber guns you can carry are able to penetrate your masts out to ~250m. 

Of course the shallow ships (like your Pandora) sometimes follow modified versions of that rule, since those engagements happen at closer ranges. But as the ship size increases, the "demastable" range must also increase.

This works out very well, and scales nicely with the current % thickness buff mast mods. You can build an almost un-demastable ship. One where your lower sections only become vulnerable at 50-100m, which is a range where many ships will struggle to elevate their guns enough to even hit your masts. 

This is one-half of the current counter to "mast sniping." The other half is your own skill. What are you doing to the enemy while he's plinking at your masts? Unless you face a superb opponent who gets a perfect broadside off...chances are you'll have at least one or two broadside reloads to make something happen. So maybe players shouldn't sit there and watch their masts fall without at least trying some kind of counter-tactic 😜.

Yes, there actually are counters to an opponent who is shooting masts. Most people just don't like them because they involve expensive mods or an admission of a lack of awareness in positioning and knowledge of tactics. Admittedly, they're weak compared to the counters we have for most other tactics, but they have indeed worked for years now.

 

Other than the ranges being off...I like it.

Its been proposed for ages now to tie mast HP to amount of canvas set, or to sail HP, but most ideas haven't been fleshed out very well. But you've got the most detailed sensible proposal I've seen yet, hopefully the devs will take a hard look at it. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by William Death

[Lt Sekiro]

 

4 hours ago, JDMonster said:

I was working on a detailed proposal for implementing a system that tied your sail power to a damage reduction buff for the masts.  Here's the proposal, but it's not finished and I'm still thinking things through.

***  WORK IN PROGRESS***

Proposed mast damage tweak/rework

 

 

 

Issue:

 

Being demasted is a death sentence in game.  Once a mast goes down, especially the main mast, you will be stern camped where you can’t fight back and have your remaining masts shot away.  While demasting did occur IRL and was even a common occurrence, ships were still able to fight and maneuver effectively.  The reason why the situation in game doesn’t reflect reality is for three reasons.

 

1)      Extreme accuracy of guns and broadsides

 

2)      Sailing at 100% sail power all the time with no consequences.

 

3)      Rigging/spars not being shot away

 

The first one is done for questions of fun.  Realistic gun accuracy wouldn’t be enjoyable, and thus my proposed fix won’t touch it in a major way.  The third one the devs said they can’t model without drastically increasing the performance requirement of the game.  The second point is what my fix intends to address.

 

 

 

Goal:

 

-          Reduce mast sniping by adding counter play without radically changing game mechanics

 

Why it’s beneficial to old players and new players alike:

 

-          Improve new player experience

 

o   Less reliance on hard find upgrades and perks

 

o   Being de-masted is no longer a death sentence, allowing new players to fight longer and earn more in game XP and real life game sense

 

-          Removes a point of contention among older players

 

o   Mast sniping is still a tactic, but it can be countered, like other forms of damage

 

§  Chaining sails can be countered by lowering sails / angling them

 

§  Shooting the hull can be countered by angling your hull and or only showing a particular broadside

 

§  Boarding can be countered by clever use of sails to keep the relative speeds of two ships up

 

§  Mast sniping can’t be countered

 

-          Increase immersion and realism of the game

 

o   Battle sails are now encouraged, players no longer stay on 100% all the time

 

o   Will help shift the PVP meta away from fir/fir speed demons

 

o   Increased value of tankier builds in PVP

 

o   As said by @admin in a demasting thread, being demasted IRL sucked, but wasn’t a death sentences.  These changes would bring that reality to Naval Action

 

Proposed Changes:

 

-          Masts still are lost when their HP hits zero

 

-          Lowered sails provide a damage resistance buff  to masts

 

-          Damaged masts provide less power proportional to their remaining HP

 

-          Certain mast upgrades are nerfed

 

Example: A Pandora facing off against a 32 lb Carronade/ 9 lb long ship common to the shallow water pvp zone.  All of the stats are from https://na-map.netlify.com/, with no modifiers included.  Tad unrealistic given the state of ship building in the game, but it is the only way to get reliable figures without accounting the thousands of possible builds.

 

 

 

Proposed damage curve

 

Here are a series of proposed damage modifiers *values subject to change and tweaking, these are made up for the sake of the example*

 

	Sail power	Damage received from a shot *	Damage received from shot when de powered *
Stopped	0%	20%	---
Dead slow	20%	30%	25%
Battle	40%	40%	35%
Slow	60%	60%	55%
Half	80%	75%	70%
Full	100%	100%	95%

 

 

Proposed Sail Power /

 

A stock Pandora’s masts have the following stat

 

	Bottom	Middle	Top
Health	410	273	244
Thickness	97	72	48

 

 

 

 

Now for the guns:

 

Gun	32 lb carronade	9 lb long
Damage	108	60
50	124	116
100	115	110
250	87	95
500	31	72

 

 

As you can see, both the Carronade and the long gun can reliably smash through the base of the mast of the Pandora at 100 meters, both being able to pen the middle at 250 meters, and the long being able to take out the topmasts at well past the engagement ranges we see in game.  A 32 lb carronade can take out a mast in 4 shots, 9lb long in 7.

 

Proposed damage curve

 

Here are a series of proposed damage modifiers *values subject to change and tweaking, these are made up for the sake of the example*

 

	Sail power	Damage received from a shot *	Shots to demast base   32/9	Damage received from shot when de powered *	Shots to demast base   32/9
Stopped	0%	20%	20/35	---	---
Dead slow	20%	30%	14/24	25%	16/28
Battle	40%	40%	10/18	35%	12/20
Slow	60%	60%	7/12	55%	8/13
Half	80%	75%	6/9	70%	6/10
Full	100%	100%	4/7	95%	5/8

 

 

 

I haven't finished it yet, but yeah.  Thoughts?

Maybe less radicale change.

Actually , mast hp is 15% of hull hp

Just up them to 30% of hull hp(Maybe less for 2nd/1st rate or too OP)

BUT in this case nerf mast upgrade , less hp bonus from the upgrade but same mast thikness bonus.

Like this mast will be more tanky and give more chance for player getting mast sniped to stay alive or get better position during fight.

 

[JDMonster]

@Lt Sekiro and @William Death.  I was also thinking to have mast health affect how much sail power, so it's not the all or nothing thing we see now where pumping shots in the mast is useless if you don't take it down completely. 

 

Also I do mention in the proposal that some mast mods need a nerf (see Navy Mast mod.  20% increase in thickness for no downside is absolutely insane).

[William Death]

Fair points. 

 

Ultimately, mast HP is a tricky one. Since its so low to start with, the bonuses on mods must be absolutely massive in order to make a difference. As it stands now, most of the upgrades that increase mast HP that I know of are not worth running. In many cases, the amount of additional HP you get is barely equal to one or two cannonball hits to the mast, which is hardly worth a slot that could take northern master carps, muskets, naval clock, etc. 

Thickness mods, on the other hand, make a very big difference, as we all know. A 20% mast thickness increase seems insane, but keep in mind that at the moment, many ships are borderline unplayable without those mods. Who would take a 3rd rate into a brawl that contains 1st rates, without at least ensuring his masts have a good chance of holding up? Or who would sail an Endymion without mast mods (unless he's fir/fir and can just run away)?

Therein is the tricky part with demasting changes. You adjust one value, and it throws another one off. So you fix that one and then the other one has to be tweaked again. Basic stats values have been juggled around for a few years now, and we seem to keep coming back to something basically like what we have now. Make the masts have a higher HP without adjusting thickness and demasting goes away almost entirely. Keep HP the same and lower thickness and masts fall in every battle (we had this in mid 2017 for a few weeks). One extreme to the other. Small changes one way or another is the key, so you can "walk" the stats into a happy balance.

 

14 minutes ago, JDMonster said:

I was also thinking to have mast health affect how much sail power, so it's not the all or nothing thing we see now where pumping shots in the mast is useless if you don't take it down completely. 

I don't quite understand this part maybe. Do you mean that if the sails are all set, the masts will be easier to pen, effectively? That'd be one way to do it, but it does seem maybe a bit...troll-able if you anticipate your enemy trying to demast you so you take in sail quickly to deny him the ability to pen. Like turning mast invulnerability on or off at will in the middle of the battle.

Partial penetration damage would be neat, but I don't know if thats possible with the damage model. As an example, if you hit a mast, but didn't have enough penetration value to get a full pen, but instead you get some % of your full pen damage value. The only issue then becomes balancing this so the machine gun builds with 4/6/9/12lb cannons on all decks sniping masts from 500m by just spraying shots into the rigging aren't viable.  Liquicity mentioned when it was like this, and I can confirm it wasn't particularly enjoyable. Again, a tricky thing to balance.

[JDMonster]

23 minutes ago, William Death said:

I don't quite understand this part maybe. Do you mean that if the sails are all set, the masts will be easier to pen, effectively? That'd be one way to do it, but it does seem maybe a bit...troll-able if you anticipate your enemy trying to demast you so you take in sail quickly to deny him the ability to pen. Like turning mast invulnerability on or off at will in the middle of the battle.

No, as in even if your sails haven't been hit but your masts have it still decreases the sail HP a bit.  Not too much to make chain shot useless, but enough so that if an opponent goes full mast mods you aren't  wasting shots because you can't see what mods they have.  It's to represent rigging and spars being shot away.

 

Think of it how a penetrating shot on your hull can damage the inner health bar even if you still have side armour, except here the mast is the side armour and the sail HP is the inner HP.  The analogy makes no sense, but that's my thought process.

[Sea Archer]

A player should know about the damage of his own ship.

I like the idea of hiding the enemy's damage and crew completely. Maybe with a reduction or complete removal of repairs. 

[Stilgar]

On 3/11/2020 at 4:22 PM, Licinio Chiavari said:

The point is: if you know how many men there're on board enemy ship (as his hull and sail conditions) you should know his mast conditions... as you should know YOURS.

Or we hide all damage (and hide hits too - to avoid counting) or it's reasonable to have all damage dealt and received visible.

This is a very good point, although I feel complete transparency on the state of the masts will not necessarily be beneficial for the game play.

 

[Licinio Chiavari]

On 3/13/2020 at 12:06 PM, Stilgar said:

This is a very good point, although I feel complete transparency on the state of the masts will not necessarily be beneficial for the game play.

Beneficial is matter of PoV.

A seasoned veteran doesnt need mast status: he's used to know already penetration ranges, damage per ball, mast HP values. So he can live that way as he's.
It ends often, in case of mast broadsides, as matter of instinct: you "know" when it's time to pre-rep. sail to preserve masts.

My point is consistency.
And from newbie perspective.

The funny part is that we got tons and tons of posts to "protect the newbies" but we stop in helping them in the most unreal and elitist mechanic of the game: mast sniping and snapping.
Because it's not a detail: losing a mast is 90% a death sentence.

[John Cavanaugh]

9 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Because it's not a detail: losing a mast is 90% a death sentence.

So is having a snow raking away and being unable to get decent damage on hull due to its turn rate and acceleration. 

The sailing model and raking damage that completely negates any need to engage side to side at any point NECESSITATE demasting. Because of this, ships like the Trinco are excellent against ships like Endy or Indef, which by conventional logic should have a distinct advantage. Turn rate, maneuverability, raking damage. Demasting levels that field, or at least it can. 

Youre right. If you have no masts you’re dead 90% of the time. And raking hull achieves this while also inflicting hull cannon and crew damage. Watch Moscalb’s streams. See him sniping masts as a default option very often? Not so much. But he will take EVERY opportunity to fire raking shots. It is hands down the most effective option in the vast majority of fights. You’ve fought my trinc in your snow, as an example. I believe you said I “raped [your] snow quite nicely.” First broadside hull since you gave it to me, second broadside chain since you let me, you repaired hull, so I cut your masts.

biggest reason people snipe masts is because the target sails in a way which allows it. You allowed it by proximity and sailing pattern. People sail side to side like idiots and try to out DPS because they’ve learned to think in terms of reload speed and damage. Bring carros and poods and British sergeant and you’re good to go. Or they try to stern camp to kill quickly. If you choose a tactic that lets you kill quick, you can get killed quick yourself. Boom and zoom has been forgotten because sailing has been simplified so much. Pick it up again and you’ll get mast sniped less. It’s called learning to play rather than relying on mods to hold your hand. If that’s too complicated, buy ships with heavy rig instead of very fast trim and slap some mast bands on there.

Edited March 14, 2020 by John Cavanaugh

[Kejsaren]

So far it looks like players are pretty divided in this poll. However as a clear majority seems to be in favor of a change maybe this should be looked into by the devs, @admin?.

And if no intention to make any changes to this please let us know so we don't need bring it up again😉

 

Fair winds

Edited March 15, 2020 by Djakary

[Sea Archer]

On 3/12/2020 at 4:00 PM, Aquillas said:

Agreed. I was about to add to my previous post that an increase of masts HP is necessary, otherwise all battles will turn in mast aiming only.

I prefer leaving the HP as they are but reducing the hitboxes for masts.

And topmasts should be slightly damaged by chain shot ( at least at close distance)

[HachiRoku]

 

On 3/14/2020 at 3:32 PM, Licinio Chiavari said:

A seasoned veteran doesnt need mast status: he's used to know already penetration ranges, damage per ball, mast HP values. So he can live that way as he's.

No he doesn't. He has no idea what mods you are running so its just totally random. 

[William Death]

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

No he doesn't. He has no idea what mods you are running so its just totally random.

You sure about that?

 

I know basic pen values, basic mast thickness values, etc. I know whether or not a ship can be made un-demastable by the cannons I carry. If he has no chance at making an un-demastable ship vs my guns, then I can safely target masts. 

But if he is in the grey area where I might or might not be able to demast him, depending on his mods; then I can make a pretty well-educated guess, based on the clan and name of the player if he's going to be smart enough to run mast mods or not. Obviously, if I think that my enemy does have mast mods, then I'll not waste my time shooting his masts.

Hasn't failed me yet.

[HachiRoku]

10 hours ago, William Death said:

You sure about that?

 

I know basic pen values, basic mast thickness values, etc. I know whether or not a ship can be made un-demastable by the cannons I carry. If he has no chance at making an un-demastable ship vs my guns, then I can safely target masts. 

But if he is in the grey area where I might or might not be able to demast him, depending on his mods; then I can make a pretty well-educated guess, based on the clan and name of the player if he's going to be smart enough to run mast mods or not. Obviously, if I think that my enemy does have mast mods, then I'll not waste my time shooting his masts.

Hasn't failed me yet.

there is nothing gray about might or might not. Its as black and white as it gets. You cannot make an educated guess based on the clan and name.

[William Death]

11 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

there is nothing gray about might or might not. Its as black and white as it gets.

My comment about the "grey area" was in regards to when, dependent upon mods, I might or might not be able to demast.

 

EX: Santisima vs Bellona. On a stock, or non-mast-mod Bellona, my Santisima guns easily penetrate the masts. But if he has a good mast mod, or the mast and rig bonus, or strong rig, etc. I will probably not be able to pen the masts without using double charge, a pen build, or moving in very close. 

So, I have to fight a Bellona with my Santisima. I'd like to demast him so I don't get raked to death. Can I do it? Maybe. Depends if he brought a proper build with mast mods. Many players do, some don't. Some I cannot demast, some I can. Therefore, grey area. 

So what do I do? I make the best choice I can, given the information I have. Usually that choice comes down to the clan tag and name of the player, and any past experience I have fighting them.

 

When its not a grey area: Bellona vs a 5th rate. I don't think any sane 5th rate captain is building his ship to have masts that'll stand up to 32lb long cannon penetration. You shoot the masts, and you will penetrate them. 

11 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

You cannot make an educated guess based on the clan and name.

We can agree to disagree. I've fought many players and asked myself whether or not I should shoot masts. At the end, when I cap or sink their ship, I inspect their mod choices. I'm right in my decision more often than not. 

[Gregory Rainsborough]

I think you can make an educated guess based on clan.

Ram Dinark has mast mods, some poor newbie won't.

[Vizzini]

30 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

I think you can make an educated guess based on clan.

Ram Dinark has mast mods, some poor newbie won't.

The more PVP orientated a clan , the more I expect mast mods / pen builds etc

 

Part of the reason for not having visible clan / names on the OW  was to stop people running as soon as they saw who it was.

 

[HachiRoku]

17 hours ago, William Death said:

My comment about the "grey area" was in regards to when, dependent upon mods, I might or might not be able to demast.

 

EX: Santisima vs Bellona. On a stock, or non-mast-mod Bellona, my Santisima guns easily penetrate the masts. But if he has a good mast mod, or the mast and rig bonus, or strong rig, etc. I will probably not be able to pen the masts without using double charge, a pen build, or moving in very close. 

So, I have to fight a Bellona with my Santisima. I'd like to demast him so I don't get raked to death. Can I do it? Maybe. Depends if he brought a proper build with mast mods. Many players do, some don't. Some I cannot demast, some I can. Therefore, grey area. 

So what do I do? I make the best choice I can, given the information I have. Usually that choice comes down to the clan tag and name of the player, and any past experience I have fighting them.

 

When its not a grey area: Bellona vs a 5th rate. I don't think any sane 5th rate captain is building his ship to have masts that'll stand up to 32lb long cannon penetration. You shoot the masts, and you will penetrate them. 

We can agree to disagree. I've fought many players and asked myself whether or not I should shoot masts. At the end, when I cap or sink their ship, I inspect their mod choices. I'm right in my decision more often than not. 

I'm quite aware of how dismasting works. 

It doesn't matter how often you are right or wrong. It's a problem when a tactical element of the game is pure chance. I don't like chance.