Mast hits / health revealed or hidden

[Kejsaren]

I feel that both myself and opponent benefit from a battle where we both can see the damage done to our masts, and also if shots actually penetrate or not.

We can see that on hull, no reason to keep mast hidden.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Djakary

[Liq]

RIP damage logger

[Teutonic]

the gamer in me wants option 1.

but I feel like it could also drastically change how we fight in battle now which could end up being a negative. so I'm not sure on the solution.

[Licinio Chiavari]

27 minutes ago, Liq said:

RIP damage logger

add on?

Cheater!

[Licinio Chiavari]

16 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

the gamer in me wants option 1.

but I feel like it could also drastically change how we fight in battle now which could end up being a negative. so I'm not sure on the solution.

The point is: if you know how many men there're on board enemy ship (as his hull and sail conditions) you should know his mast conditions... as you should know YOURS.

Or we hide all damage (and hide hits too - to avoid counting) or it's reasonable to have all damage dealt and received visible.

[Mormegil]

For consistency it would be good to see everything, there you are right.
However, i think that full information might change combat behaviour too drastically.
I do think though that it would be nice to see if you do damage at least. I.e. the mast hits only show up if they actually penetrate/do damage.
This would also increase consistency with other parts of the game, as usually you need to do damage to get a hit marker (hull, sails, crew) and only then get a tag as well for resetting the leave timer. With masts only, you get a tag and reset the timer even if you did 0 damage with your mast hit...
Which can also lead to confusion (especially for newer players) if you try to demast from too far away and have 150 mast hits on a 5th rate ship without a single mast falling...

[Kejsaren]

2 minutes ago, Mormegil said:

However, i think that full information might change combat behaviour too drastically.

This was mentioned by someone else aswell, so i gave it some thought but still don't see how it would affect combat behavior negatively.

Could you explain?

[Mormegil]

14 minutes ago, Djakary said:

This was mentioned by someone else aswell, so i gave it some thought but still don't see how it would affect combat behavior negatively.

Could you explain?

If you can see the exact amount of HP each enemy mast has, you will get way more information than the current HP. Since you see the HP, you see how it changes with every hit.
Therefore you can calculate how many hits you need and see if it is worth continuing. This might change the dynamic of the fight drastically as a player will see that his mast shooting does little damage very fast and he may try to sink the enemy earlier then he would otherwise. Without the info on how hard his hits were and only knowing if he did penetrate, he does not know how often he has to hit the masts and only guess when it will fall. Furthermore he could prepare boarding if he knew when the masts fall, as the rigging shock will make enemy movement pretty predictable. Therefore a single mast falling could be even worse than it is already.
On the bad side for the defender he would also loose the strategic option of sneaking a sail-repair at 100% sails to repair masts without the enemy noticing it. If he sees your mast HP going up, he knows you repaired. Currently he cannot see it if you are at 100% sail HP, which happens at least sometimes when enemy players are really good at mast sniping.
It should therefore be thought about whether those consequences are wanted, and if not, if there is a compromise (only show pens, not current HP) to avoid/minimize the consequences.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Mormegil

[Kejsaren]

I think this should be tested at least. Just for a limited period of time. After that decide wether or not it should be kept in game or discarded.

[Licinio Chiavari]

5 minutes ago, Mormegil said:

If you can see the exact amount of HP each enemy mast has, you will get way more information than the current HP. Since you see the HP, you see how it changes with every hit.
Therefore you can calculate how many hits you need and see if it is worth continuing. This might change the dynamic of the fight drastically as a player will see that his mast shooting does little damage very fast and he may try to sink the enemy earlier then he would otherwise. Without the info on how hard his hits were and only knowing if he did penetrate, he does not know how often he has to hit the masts and only guess when it will fall. Furthermore he could prepare boarding if he knew when the masts fall, as the rigging shock will make enemy movement pretty predictable. Therefore a single mast falling could be even worse than it is already.
On the bad side for the defender he would also loose the strategic option of sneaking a sail-repair at 100% sails to repair masts without the enemy noticing it. If he sees your mast HP going up, he knows you repaired. Currently he cannot see it if you are at 100% sail HP, which happens at least sometimes when enemy players are really good at mast sniping.
It should therefore be thought about whether those consequences are wanted, and if not, if there is a compromise (only show pens, not current HP) to avoid/minimize the consequences.

Having 100% sails with weakened masts is a very unlikely occurrence. Even top snipers miss more than a few shots (especially if you're smart enough to make their job less easy).

So you are sitting at 95-99% depending on situation. Therefore a sneaky sail rep simply doesnt exist (not to speak of sail move at sail rep start).

The point is: is having full knowledge of enemy hull or crew status making you making different tactical choises? Yes.

Shouldnt be the same for the masts?

In the end this hidden damage is (another) bonus for vets vs others.

For me we can hide all enemy status (so I will know he's sinking when I will see him sinking). It's consistency taking into account that a fallen mast means you're dead.

[Potemkin]

59 minutes ago, Djakary said:

This was mentioned by someone else aswell, so i gave it some thought but still don't see how it would affect combat behavior negatively.

Could you explain?

To add to @Mormegil's reply, ive been sunk before trying to dismast a surp with redicu-modded masts in a 2v2 against 2 very experienced players. At the time i was committed to going for masts it was a 2v1 in my favor. Had i known my shots were having little/ no effect sooner id have switched to shooting hull. In the end the enemy player won on a sliver of structure. Having info like mast health of your enemy can, imho, significantly change the outcome of a battle. I think it would help less experienced players if they knew the health of their own masts because alot of times i see people who dont realize whats happening when their masts are taking hits, especially in the shallows where its rediculously easy to demast. The enemy definitely should not have that info, and frankly if nothing changes id be ok with that too.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Potemkin

[Potemkin]

Just now, RepairyMcRepairous said:

Fact of the day :

People who snipe masts also sail requins

Super fake news

[Licinio Chiavari]

49 minutes ago, RepairyMcRepairous said:

Fact of the day :

People who snipe masts also sail requins

Depends. I prefer full broadside bow rakes. A LRQ is a fast and (now mid-) nimble ship but frail (a lot): too dangerous to slow down and aim vs. 99% times bigger and more armed enemies.

 

Ah... again: people without clues on the subject.

[William Death]

4 hours ago, RepairyMcRepairous said:

Fact of the day :

People who snipe masts also sail requins

Indeed this is fake news.

I "snipe" masts (by which I mean, I point my individual guns to disable the enemy's rigging to bring down a mast, just as the gunners did IRL), but I loathe sailing the Le Requin.  I'll sail it if I'm forced to (since it is mandatory for RvR), but I do not like it.

I do, however, enjoy snapping Requin masts .

 

To the point of the topic...I'd be fine with all the information being available to everyone, but I can understand how that'd...influence...some fights one way or another.

I think if you're a good enough player, and well practiced at demasting, you'll know your pen values, be able to gauge the skill of your enemy, and make a decision on whether he was smart enough to run mast mods or not and then decide if you want to continue trying to demast or focus your efforts elsewhere.

Furthermore...I think if you're a good player and your masts are being hit, you should know what the pen values of the enemy's guns are, and if he can hurt your masts or not. But maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to have a color-gradient red/yellow/green scale for each mast to make it easier for people who aren't inclined to learn anything about mast pen and such. 

[JDMonster]

 

Someone suggested this.  I'm currently working on a proposal to help reduce mast sniping and and increase the realism of the game, but I'm still ironing out the details and thinking if it's a good idea or not.

[Liq]

16 hours ago, Potemkin said:

ive been sunk before trying to dismast a surp with redicu-modded masts in a 2v2 against 2 very experienced players. At the time i was committed to going for masts it was a 2v1 in my favor. Had i known my shots were having little/ no effect sooner id have switched to shooting hull. In the end the enemy player won on a sliver of structure.

sounds familiar

[Bragan Benigaris]

Voted for 3 (Should remain hidden) and would prefer if we don't see the hull and crew damage also.

[Angus MacDuff]

Voted for two.  You should know your own mast health.....Carpenter - "Captain Sir, the main mast has received 5 hits just above deck level.  It won't take another one!"

[Serk]

4 minutes ago, Bragan Benigaris said:

Voted for 3 (Should remain hidden) and would prefer if we don't see the hull and crew damage also.

Interesting. Not knowing how badly damaged your opponent’s ship or crew is, nor if repairing or not, could significantly change tactics in battle.

more than ever, people would have to rely on visual clues and player behaviour to get an idea. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Serk

[Bragan Benigaris]

1 minute ago, Serk said:

Interesting. Not knowing how badly damaged your opponent’s ship or crew is, nor if repairing or not, could significantly change tactics in battle.

more than ever, people would have to rely on visual clues to get an idea. 

Aye, that's the idea: You already have a visual indication on the hull about the amount of hits and you can see if the enemy sits lower because he takes water. Suddenly slower turning can indicate a rudder damage (or be a cunning tactic of your opponent). Only hard to guess damage may be the crew loss, but maybe can be guessed by your hits with grape shot approximately maybe...

[erelkivtuadrater]

IMO All enemy HP should be hidden, you shouldnt be able to have laser vision to see the structure of a ship, you should be able to tell if the ship is damaged or not by looking at the ball holes and that the ship gets slower. Think this would allow for a better gameplay where you couldnt tell easily what kind of build a ship is or not, However you should be able to get the info of your own state of your ship since logically you would have carpenters around telling status about anything

Edited March 12, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater

[Potemkin]

2 hours ago, Liq said:

sounds familiar

Im still salty about that lmao, that was an absurd build. I felt it was a good example for this topic though. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Potemkin

[Liq]

8 minutes ago, Potemkin said:

Im still salty about that lmao, that was an absurd build. I felt it was a good example for this topic though. 

that build was a slow mofo though. 10 ish knots. My new one is navy mast bands(instead of kiritimati and heavy rig) + elite french, gets similar results @ 13 knots 

#balanced

[Potemkin]

1 minute ago, Liq said:

that build was a slow mofo though. 10 ish knots. My new one is navy mast bands(instead of kiritimati and heavy rig) + elite french, gets similar results @ 13 knots 

#balanced

Well at least now we all know to use chain when we see liq, i didnt wanna blow up your spot lol

[Aquillas]

My bigger concern about that is: why an armour for masts?

For hull, I can understand that a cannon ball can go through (making damages and leaks) or not (making no damage).

But for masts? A ball or a chain that hits a mast should make damages. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Aquillas