Discussion: Port battle points and cooldowns

[Montagnes]

31 minutes ago, Je maintiendrai said:

Or implement fixed setups (2x 1st, 2x 2nd, 3x3rd rate etc.) so more players are able to get into a PB. Something like that 

Fixated setups might limit too much the tactics and creativity of the PB commander.

[Montagnes]

2 minutes ago, rediii said:

Ship	Current BR	Suggested BR
Indefatigable	320	270
Rättvisan	340	270
Ingermanland	310	290
Wapen von Hamburg III	330	290
Agamemnon	340	290
Constitution (previously classic)	400	330
USS United States (previously Constitution)	400	330
Wasa	400	400
3rd Rate (74)	490	470
Bellona	500	500
Redoutable	550	640
Implacable	550	640
St. Pavel	570	640
Bucentaure	550	640
Christian VII	600	690
Victory	800	800
L'Ocean	900	1035
Santisima	900	1050

I think with this you would see more actual 3rd rates in the PBsCurrent BR might be wrong. its essentially the table I posted some time ago and edited it now again.

St Pavel is rated too high given his many sailing disadvantages compared to the others (heeling, speed, lacking bow chasers to slow down the opponents).

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

I would say 1 big circle which generates more points, 2 smaller circles which generate less points.

This way there should be battle for big circle and 2 other circles are important but just for supporting. Kiting and using LRQs to occupy circles is not what a naval battle should be.

I actually like this.  Make A the big circle and worth the most points to encourage the big fight to be there.  Side circles worth less and could be smaller.  Even make it that you might need frigates for B/C and SOL for A to gain points.

 1st rates BR should be twice that of 3rd rates to encourage bringing more smaller ships.

as for the LRQ would love to see a trade version but he does have a point.  The other strong up wind ship is way weaker so folks don’t use them.  This ship honestly should be a 5th rate like the herc was bump up to and have bigger BR.

1 hour ago, van Veen said:

Economic warfare and looting towns. 

Add possibility to raid a town. A raid does not require a hostility mission, it can be done instantly. Sail towards the town (bring your friends), and attack the town. Then, a port battle instance is created (as described above). Attackers can attack the town, towers and fortresses. Capturing the town gives 10% (to be tweaked) of all goods, reales and doubloons that are currently in town. The money is removed from the clan warehouses. Defenders join at the docks. 

We should also have a way to boot alt and dead clans from a port in same nation.  Some way to have AI port battles and make the port go neutral.  That way if they can defend it they can keep it.  
 

I would love to see more shallows sections in port battles.  Not just the coast line limiting ships by depth of the water and maybe having some circles that require smaller ships to capture cause of water depth.

[Mouth of Sauron]

I have 4 main issues with the current port battle setup.  

1 - le requins gameplay inside the ports.  A recent gander over on the battle reports post will show an ever increasing number of le rekts being used to kite/circle control, especially in defensive port battles, and I just feel that the inclusion of requins in deep water battles ruins the experience.  I personally don't think they should be in any port battles period, but having them in deep battles is just obnoxious.

2 - forts in the shallows are a problem.  lack of mortar brig play is also an issue.  we need to find some balance where mortars are included in battles and don't significantly hinder BR.  

3 - BR sometimes doesn't make sense.  900 in the shallows on some capital ports is simply too low.  Morgan's Bluff with 2 forts and 900 BR is a nightmare to attack.  George Town is 5700 BR as a capital port.  I think a little though needs to go into the selection of port BR.  Also static numbers like 5700 or 10700 just creates static lineups and I'd like to see a little more diversity where the nations had to be a little more creative.  Example  4800 BR   5100   something along those lines.

4 - I think the cooldown is too low being able to flip ports over and over.  Should Ideally be a once a week type of thing and there is no consequence for flipping an no showing.  

Bonus - successful and perhaps even unsuccessful port battles should give rewards of some sort.  Maybe an MVP reward for most kills or assists.  

Edited March 10, 2020 by Mouth of Sauron

[Teutonic]

2 hours ago, admin said:

Hello Captains

We iterated OW ROE to almost perfect state through a lot of pain (sorry). It can probably be better, but searching for better options will disrupt pvp. Maybe its time to do a final review for the port battles.

Post your thoughts on the following

Battle itself: Capture zones, Points, Counters, Point distribution. 
Meta: entry circles, cool-downs between battles, BR for port battles

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, rediii said:

It already doesnt except in high BR ports.

1st rates are terribly inefficient if you can have 2 2nd rates instead of 1 1st rate

 

25 minutes ago, rediii said:

Ship	Current BR	Suggested BR
Indefatigable	320	270
Rättvisan	340	270
Ingermanland	310	290
Wapen von Hamburg III	330	290
Agamemnon	340	290
Constitution (previously classic)	400	330
USS United States (previously Constitution)	400	330
Wasa	400	400
3rd Rate (74)	490	470
Bellona	500	500
Redoutable	550	640
Implacable	550	640
St. Pavel	570	600
Bucentaure	550	640
Christian VII	600	690
Victory	800	800
L'Ocean	900	1035
Santisima	900	1050

I think with this you would see more actual 3rd rates in the PBsCurrent BR might be wrong. its essentially the table I posted some time ago and edited it now again.

(Maybe 640 Brs need some adjusting but you get what I mean here I guess. Make 2nds and 1sts higher BR and 4ths and lower less BR)

Quoting for reference.

- I think current Port BR limits are ok, the shallows at 900 BR is too low in some places. but I think the larger problem with shallow water port battles is that a Fort is just way too crazy. If the 42pd guns on a fort could be 12pd for shallow instead, or even just have no forts in shallow water ports...whatever the change, a fort is too strong for shallow water.

- Requins should not be allowed in deep water port battles, in fact no shallow water ship should be allowed in deep water port battles. I think that would solve a glaring issue that we, the players, have decided to just tolerate, but never enjoy (le rekt kiting in circles forever). 

- banning shallow water ships would mean we "should" have a deep water mortar ship (could be a 5th or 4th rate or whatever the devs decide).

- I am in agreement with @rediii on a BR change for ships and his proposed list. the only change I made was to lower the Pavel to 600...honestly even at 570 it probably still wouldn't be used. The largest issue with the Pavel and Victory is that they are the only ships in the game with a different waterline stat then the rest...and i see no explanation or reason to why it is that way.

- I also believe Forts/Towers in some ports are completely useless, and in others are truely valuable...I'm not sure how to "fix" this, except to consider a change in circle placement. 

if changes were made by the above points, I think you'd find yourself a solid....dare I say, perfect port battle system.

[Gregory Rainsborough]

BR of mortar brig should be lowered as well, how it functions is fine now considering we have to balance the time and effort of those who build forts against those who want to knock 'em down.

[Dark123]

3 hours ago, admin said:

Hello Captains

We iterated OW ROE to almost perfect state through a lot of pain (sorry). It can probably be better, but searching for better options will disrupt pvp. Maybe its time to do a final review for the port battles.

Post your thoughts on the following

Battle itself: Capture zones, Points, Counters, Point distribution. 
Meta: entry circles, cool-downs between battles, BR for port battles

 

 

Pb System is boring. Everytime the same. 

We need 2 Systems. 

(1) 3 circle system (what we have)

(2) 1 shrinking circle with neutral wind

Every port has a one of this system 

Change port br. That all ports have different br.  Between 5700 and 20000 br

Cooldown 1 week after you captured the port.

Every month 1 week break for rvr. That was very nice at chrismas .

Make Tower and Fort playable

[Thonys]

3 hours ago, admin said:

Hello Captains

We iterated OW ROE to almost perfect state through a lot of pain (sorry). It can probably be better, but searching for better options will disrupt pvp. Maybe its time to do a final review for the port battles.

Post your thoughts on the following

Battle itself: Capture zones, Points, Counters, Point distribution.   don't have to be changed i believe
Meta: entry circles, don't have to be changed

/

cool-downs between battles,   can be randomised for not having multi flip tactic involved ( one or 2 or 3 days) and a plus minus 1 hour difference.

/

BR for port battles . randomise      . and restrict  to>>> not >>> all same ship  >>>  . and same port br  ( randomise port br) not higher but lower port br..

main huge crafting ports are not included in this system

 

 

also i would implement the coastal artillery:  make and give  the Mortar brig a roll for being in the game of port battles as well...

bring this back please its a waste if it stays out of this

. bombard town s as well >>>>> implementation for speeding up time (timer double speed)x1.5

 

important next iteration 

port battles can only be done by crafted /captured ships (DLC ships are not welcome and restricted for doing port battle )

reason : the suspicion of pay to win is excluded here. by click ships,  (only port battles) [one week/ month of building vs on click the next/same  day]

Edited March 10, 2020 by Thonys

[Angus MacDuff]

2 minutes ago, Thonys said:

port battles can only be done by crafted ships (DLC ships are not welcome and restricted for doing port battle )

reason : the suspicion of pay to win is excluded here. by click ships,  (only port battles) 

That means only the richest clans would go to a PB.  Poorer players will not risk their shiny, expensive crafted ships.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Dark123 said:

 

Every month 1 week break for rvr. That was very nice at chrismas .

 

Make that every 2 months 😛

[Gregory Rainsborough]

I think a break over major Western holidays, Christmas and Easter would be nice.

[Thonys]

8 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

That means only the richest clans would go to a PB.  Poorer players will not risk their shiny, expensive crafted ships.

i think that is a bit overreacting and not true 

i can grab a ocean every day   (is a crafted vessel but i need some time to capture one]

[erelkivtuadrater]

48 minutes ago, Mouth of Sauron said:

2 - forts in the shallows are a problem.  lack of mortar brig play is also an issue.  we need to find some balance where mortars are included in battles and don't significantly hinder BR.  

i feel this is easily fixed by having fort 9pd cannons instead of the 42pd cannons that reload shocks with one ball hit  

[Thonys]

13 minutes ago, Staunberg🇩🇰 said:

I fear you would be wrong. But again depend on what game you want. I once gave up on RvR, because of the grind for dubs, pay for timers. I only gave it a shot because of the Redoutable. 

If we make it even harder, Well we just end up with less RvR. That can ofc be a goal.
 

or perhaps i am not wrong and you are not wrong

something has to be changed then...to overcome this enigma

i don't know the solution for that, the admin need to do some brain work on that .

there are some manipulating solutions for it, like dynamic port br - from the size of the defending nation for example 

but it seems also that , you are in bigger trouble than the conquerors do.

 

but 

this dilemma needs to be seen at equal terms for both sides (defender / attacker strength)

the example is not really a good example to make a decision on how to implement stuff.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Thonys

[Marquês do Bonfim]

I would love to see more fort combat. That fort/tower circle idea is actually a pretty good one. Send two ships towards the fort circles to take it down and gain points by doing it. The fort towers were always too overpowered for no significant reason, it's like taking a ship of the line with bulk build and it does too much damage, even if you camp it from afar. Make fort towers a way to make points and defend a circle. For that, instead of sending smaller ships to the B and C circles to just sit there till a enemy ship arrives to battle, it can actually focus fire on the fort towers to take it down and bring in more points to the overall points for the team.

And yeah, I agree. 3rd rates definitely needs to be the meta for PBs, maybe have 2 2nd rates and 1 st rate around, but mostly 3rds and 4ths would be better for the PBs. And that brings way more variety to it aswell.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

PB are ok at the moment, it's how they are set that bother me: the whole timers/pve-hostility 

+ the ganking after getting out of an hostility mission or failed pb

+ the lack of use for victory marks & lordship

 

About the battles themselves, having shallow - mid depth area in portbattles would make it more interesting but in the end i think it's already good, what could improve it also concern the global combat mecanic ( less op mods, less crew damages from nearby explosions, requins..)

Edited March 10, 2020 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

open for all ships please! No br minimum anymore.

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Genevieve Malfleurs

[van stiermarken]

48 minutes ago, Burmistrz Pucka said:

Port Battles are not fine, but many players will just blame existence of Requin (just like redii does), Prince or other small ships instead of seeing the problem. As suggested long time ago, the mechanic of 1 tiny ship blocking points from entire fleet is pure form of "kiting". It always ends up in sit on the far edge of the circle and does not encourage fighting. If enemies get close to you, just sail upwind and get to the other edge of the circle. There are 2 simple solutions here:

1. Contesting the cap does not entire block points influx, only halves it. So instead of getting 2 points per tick the controller of the zone would get 1 instead. Zone is controlled by the fleet with higher BR inside it. 
2. Another option would be to make circles even smaller. Make it so you can't safely sit on the other edge of the zone while entirely blocking enemy team from getting points. 

The blocking mechanic may work in other games like World of Warships (our PB system is almost entirely copy-paste of WoWs), but with major differences. WoWs doesn't have wind factor, you can't sit upwind vs 1st rate that will spend 30 minutes tacking the wind trying to get to you. Also in WoWs range of guns is usually between 10-25km, meaning that most of the ships can fire at the ships contesting the zone, hence why it's extremely dangerous. In Naval Action if you sit on another edge of the zone and angled, best thing enemy can do is shoot your masts or sails, maybe some shaky bow/stern rake but it won't hurt much. You are basically very safe at that far distance, unless it's like 1st rate against 7th rate and even then there is a lot of potential for tanking, kiting and dodging. 

Summing up, small ships in PBs shouldn't be used for kiting or blocking but for fast tactical strikes and as vessel units that can quickly reinforce weaker parts of the fleet. Capture zones are not meant for "blocking points" and "kiting" but to concentrate fighting in designed places, encourage engaging in fight and minimize kiting. In the current state, they do not.

Also, as mentioned already in the topic, Hostility = PvE = no fun (but we all know this won't change despite numerous valid suggestions proposed in the past).

this all could be avoided when you have a mixed battle fleet in a PB and not only 1st rates and few tiny ships. when you look at the suggestions then it would  be the best way in the moment if you want to change the behavior of a PB.

[Stilgar]

5 hours ago, admin said:

Battle itself: Capture zones, Points, Counters, Point distribution. 
Meta: entry circles, cool-downs between battles, BR for port battles

Capture zone and point system is overall fine.  Some propose giving zone A more weight. I am not sure about this: battles are already messy enough. I'd rather see more room for maneuvering, engaging / disengaging, rather than encourage head-on brawls. 

Entry circles look fine as well. Cool down might increased with a day, I suppose: to avoid rvr-related fatigue. I would also support the idea of monthly server-wide seize-fire, for instance first week-end of the month.  Plan some events like Date with Diana for that week-end.

Changes to BR and potentially some restriction on fleet composition offer the best opportunity for improvements:

• BR limits should changed from 5700, 10600, 20000 to 5700, 10600, 16000 (+/-)
• composition restrictions: 5700 (up to 3rd rate ships, no 6-7 rates), 10600 (up to 2nd rate ships, no 6-7 rates), 16000 (up to 1st rate, no 6-7 rates) Mortar brig could be allowed I guess, but they should be less effective against ships.
• changes to ship BR along the lines suggested by rediii for example are also in order

P.S. Hostility is outside the scope of this topic and I realize making it better might be an never-ending story, but keep in mind it is still an annoying formality in many cases. At least fix the overlapping hostility sign.

[Gregory Rainsborough]

I would like snows in large port battles.

[MassimoSud]

Here are my suggestions:

Port Battle
Circles
The circles work well, maybe you could add a landing zone where if a enemy trader enter it generates some points (small advantage for those who attack obviously, but it could be an incentive to be active). Enemy traders must be limited in number depending on the BR.
Le Requin
The problem of Le requin must be solved, a non-dlc alternative must be found. Perhaps it can be resolved by allowing Prince de Neuchatelle to participate.

Forts
I understand that reviewing the forts requires more effort from the developers, but I think they need to be given a different role. Initially there was talk of the possibility of customizing the type and position of the forts, it would be an incredible step forward. The points for building the forts should be different from those for developing the port. More forts you want built, the more they have to cost. Ports with more defenses, costs that increase almost exponentially. This could balance the game. In the PvP server there are many traders and crafters (the last ones at the moment almost unemployed unfortunately due to dlcs). Let s give the possibility, at enormous costs, to fortify a port and make it difficult to conquer, this would also give a purpose to non-pvp oriented clans.

Type of ships
Depending on the BR, it would be useful to provide restrictions on participation in the PB. Please find a way to create the possibility that different types of ships are present in the PB. Today the choice is between Redoutable / Implacable - Christian - Ocean / Santissima - Le requin. We have a lot of ships in the game, let s find space for them in the PBs (thanks Devs for the variety of ships in the game)

Conquering a port
Conquering a port must give advantages, why risk ships in the venture? So when you conquer a port two things happen:
Port loses two levels of crafting and forts bonuses. 50% of the corresponding value in relas and doubloons is divided among the winning participants of the PB. If it were possible it would be nice to have the possibility of having flags for each region, better for each port. If you win in that port you can use that flag. If too demanding, special flags for the winners or other aesthetic rewards could be expected. This could encourage PBs and be a fair reward. Personally I think all ports should be at least 50 points, this is because there are many nations in the game, and maybe there will be even more with the introduction of China, and all nations, even the smallest ones, should have a chance to craft decent ships to fight in PB (game balance for small nations).

Port Battles BR
The Br must be dimanic, possibly on a weekly basis, and must depend on:
1. Reals generated from taxes
2. Players with an outpost in the port

Cool-downs PB
The cool-downs between the PBs should also be as dynamic as for the BR. The better the port, the greater the cool-down.

Thanks

[King of Crowns]

BR for bucs needs to go up some. 

[Tiedemann]

Current 3 circle capture system with the possibility to deny enemy points from a circle they control, by just contesting it with low BR ship is OP. Evidence for this can be seen in most pbs, where meta for defenders fleet includes at least 1 and some times up to 5x Le Requins. They are not brought in there to fight, but to relive the main defending fleet from having to fight for control of circles. This forces attackers to bring Le Requin because it is the most powerfull ship we can get for 100BR and to hunt down and kill a Le Requin you need a Le Requin.

Underlying problem here is that we can deny those who control a circle points just by contesting it. This option need to be removed! Having the circle generate points at a reduced rate while being contested is fine, but to stop it generating points the BR needs to be equal for both sides.

Edit: Have to add I seriously dislike the circles because some how getting those points actually became more important than sinking the enemy.. That is not really fun imo.. 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Tiedemann

[Montagnes]

Instantly flipped ports should not happen.

The goal of hostility missions should be providing defenders some time to react.

[Koltes]

On 3/11/2020 at 12:07 AM, admin said:

Hello Captains

We iterated OW ROE to almost perfect state through a lot of pain (sorry). It can probably be better, but searching for better options will disrupt pvp. Maybe its time to do a final review for the port battles.

Post your thoughts on the following

Battle itself: Capture zones, Points, Counters, Point distribution. 
Meta: entry circles, cool-downs between battles, BR for port battles

 

 

A fight with the landing of troops as the purpose to capture the port.

https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/21271-the-conquest-part-1-port-battle-mechanics/