Why are lots up ship upgunned compared to historical counterpart?

[McGuinness]

Hello,

short question:

Why are some ships in game upgunned compared to their historical model?

e.g. non of our 1th or 2nd rates in game used 42lb cannons in the main battery.

Any reason for that?

BR

 

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

They allow players to use the largest availlable gun model that can fit in the ports, and in every port of the ship.

Only largest lineships have main deck without carro option bc the ship models are directly designed with cannon models to save poly (from my understanding.)

[Snoopy]

You are right, a lot of ships are overgunned.

This seems to have solidified itself when SoL were made 'kings of the sea'.. in order to be able to do any damage through their unrealistically large effective thicknesses .. larger calibers were put on.
In first rate fights even 24pd guns are penetration starved a lot of the time. It would be nice to remove thickness across the board to make smaller caliber viable (especially 18 pounders) again.

Having said that,

42pd guns on first rates is fairly realistic though: Victory was built for that weapon and actually carried them. The French/Spanish/Russian (and Dutch) 36pd is equivalent to 39pd. I wouldn't mind limiting the Santi and Ocean to 36s now that we have them in game.. but the difference is negligible. The bigger offender is 24pd longs on the upper deck on Bellona, Redoutable etc

Edited February 13, 2020 by Snoopy

[Snoopy]

5 minutes ago, TDK said:

While I agree on Bellona, the Temeraire class was able to carry 24pd guns and at least a few of them did. So I'm okay with the 24s. Otherwise she would just be another snack for 1st rates. [..]

 

Out of roughly 100 Temeraires only Cassard and Veteran had 24pd guns. And those two ships were slightly larger. And the 24s were pulled after a while. 

Sure, for now the 24s are a necessary evil. Without thickness nerf the 18s are useless. It would be nice to get them back because they were such a staple of the era.

[erelkivtuadrater]

1 hour ago, Snoopy said:

Out of roughly 100 Temeraires only Cassard and Veteran had 24pd guns. And those two ships were slightly larger. And the 24s were pulled after a while. 

Sure, for now the 24s are a necessary evil. Without thickness nerf the 18s are useless. It would be nice to get them back because they were such a staple of the era.

our redoutable actually carried 24pd longs. The late 18th century 3rd rates were built stronger to carry heavier armament, although most carried 18pd like our implacable never carried 24pd longs, there were 3 different subclasses of the Temeraire Class which had different setups. But instead of decreasing 32, 36 and 42 pd cannons in penetration so they could compete with 24's and 18's i guess this made it easier for them to just upgun most ships. And also ingame NA counts the cannons with chasers and carronades, this wasnt normal until almost mid 19th century when carronades became common. What i dont understand is where our ingame redoutable got 4 more broadside cannons from

Edited February 13, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater

[Snoopy]

1 hour ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

our redoutable actually carried 24pd longs. The late 18th century 3rd rates were built stronger to carry heavier armament, although most carried 18pd like our implacable never carried 24pd longs. [..]

Threedecks.org is great but it gets dicey when small details like gun caliber are used as gospel.

 The 24pd is almost assuredly wrong: The two Cassards were specifically lengthened to accomodate the 24s and the increase in crew.
The British had the same pattern that some 74s carried 24s but were also specifically made larger to do so.

When taken at face value:

• Threedecks lists the Pluton subclass with 24pd guns which makes even less sense as the purpose of these ships was to be slightly smaller with shallower draft to be built in foreign ports.
• The laid down date for Suffren/Redoutable conflicts with other sources (1789).
• Threedecks is correct about only 28 guns on the LD - ours has a pair too many (there are temeraires which had 15 gun ports pierced though.. but probably never carried 30*36pdr).
• The 'national rate' stat "Premier Rang" is boilerplate from 'generic french ship' and .. well wrong because that system had been canned by the French Navy by the time the Temeraires were around.
• The weatherdeck guns are slightly off: there were likely more than 4 carronades on Redoutable at Trafalgar because over time more 8pdr weatherdeck guns were added which in turn were replaced by obusiers and carronades.

Again, I'm not trying to **** on threedecks but their stats need to be taken with a grain of salt, a lot values are simply copy/paste or default values. 

The 24pound gun on the MD on British and French (and Spanish) ships is the absolute exception. The guy who designed the Temeraire also designed the 80 gun two deckers for this purpose (Tonnant/Bucentaure). My guess is he knew what he was doing when making that 80 gun ship heavier than HMS Victory. 

British second rate three deckers (including the Victory clones) did not even carry 24s(!), this was a first rate only thing.

I'm not saying the Temeraires couldn't physically carry the 24s. I'm just saying they didn't in practice. Probably something about money and having to cross the Atlantic (and heaven forbid - sailing performance) seems to have made Spanish/British/French gun layouts far more conservative than the Dutch/Swedish/etc

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

32pd carro on snow should be clear enough, no historical reasons, just gameplay & modeling.

[Sea Archer]

The only problem with the big guns on small ships is that they give no disadvantage  like heavy heel or drastically lower speed.

[Guest]

The discussions about gun calibres is a easy to take, but difficult to do.

The weight wasn't uniform for the era, the french 36 pds is actually roughly 40 pds (I can't remember exactly) of the british lbs, and the danish were a little heavier than the french and the Christian fx. mounted 36 pds on its bottom deck which would equate roughly 42 pds of the british.. In order to have a discussion about weight we'd need to have 1 uniform weight and then convert all other weights to the uniform standard.

I do however believe that the thickness meta and the laser accuracy of the guns is a gameplay issue that currently makes upgunning some ships a necessity, I'd just wish that the snow got a severe nerf to make other 6th rates decently competitive with the snow. Who here sails a navy brig?

[McGuinness]

hey Snoopy,

thx for the explanation.

Grüsse

Edited February 14, 2020 by McGuinness

[Yoha]

The devs are deviating from historical accuracy in order to create some kind of balance between ships or all different time periods and nationalities. This is no easy feat and the balance is far from perfect. I think seasoned woods/port bonuses have made it more difficult.

I'm ok with deviating from historical accuracy because without doing so, we could not have so many different ships. 

[Sea Archer]

If the devs would respect real life mechanics, I wouldn't mind if you were completely free in your choice of guns.

Put 42 lbs longs on your cutter and see it either sinking right in port or capsize outside.

But these things do not happen. That is my problem with it. Heavy weight high above the waterline is never good in any ship.

[Yoha]

5 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

If the devs would respect real life mechanics, I wouldn't mind if you were completely free in your choice of guns.

Put 42 lbs longs on your cutter and see it either sinking right in port or capsize outside.

But these things do not happen. That is my problem with it. Heavy weight high above the waterline is never good in any ship.

That would be interesting to see, but I doubt the game's physics engine is complex enough to respond to ship weight/balance like that.

[Sea Archer]

3 hours ago, Yoha said:

That would be interesting to see, but I doubt the game's physics engine is complex enough to respond to ship weight/balance like that.

It is, guns have weight, and the weight can be simply calculated to heel.

If the heel is then connected to the sailing speed for the loss of effective sail surface, everything is done.

+ some balancing work...

 

So I see no problem with coding it.