Leopard Feedback

[Conte D. Catellani]

At the end is faster and turn like an Agamennone? 

[Rolando]

Данные по Леопарду на сайте www.na-netlify.com утверждают, что у Леопарда очень прочные верхние стеньги (600+ hp), которые по прочности превышают Ратвизановские более чем вдвое. Это действительно так?

В целом бонусы высушенного дерева отражают историческое укрепление Леопарда снодграссовскими диагоналями и железными кницами Робертса. 

Однако при теперешней розе ветров Леопард проигрывает менее скорому Ратвизану как точно по ветру, так и в крутой бейдевинд. Это делает Леопард более легкой добычей для Консты, чья роза ветров полностью доминирует над Леопардовской.

В романе Патрика О' Брайана "Остров Отчаяния" описано, как Джек Обри "испортил красоту кормовой каюты [HMS Leopard], заставив мистера Грэя построить аналог высокого винтранца, с пересекаюшимися кницами, достаточно мощными, чтобы выдержать отдачу этих бронзовых девятифунтовок, и убрать кормовые окна, как будто намереваясь поставить глухие иллюминаторы, а также часть пышной резьбы на галерее, чтобы использовать девятифунтовки в качестве ретирадных пушек, стреляющих с более высокой позиции, по сравнению с обычными портами в кают-компании".

Я понимаю, что это вымысел, использованный в романе, чтобы Обри лично сбил из такой "капитанской" 9-фунтовки фок-мачту преследуюшего Леопард линкора и победил в неравной борьбе ("О боже! - вымолвил Обри - "Шесть сотен душ [утонуло]!". Но эти вымышленные подробности показывают, насколько игровой Леопард в Naval Action уязвим с красивой кормы, имеющей только два низко расположенных ретирадных орудия. Из 4-х рейтов такой недостаток имеют: гораздо более маневренный Ингерманланд с 32ф нижней декой, более прочный и имеющий бОльшую огневую мощь Агамемнон и более быстрый Индефатигейбл, фичей которого является возможная установка на две деки 42ф карронад.

Такое положение вещей, на мой взгляд, предполагает "выдачу" Леопарду некоторых компенсируюших особенностей, каковыми могли бы быть (кроме повышения маневра до хотя бы Ратвизановского 2.5, повышения экипажа до хотя бы Индефатигейбловского 415, повышения хода в бейдевинд до хотя бы Консты) :

- действительно усиленные по толщине и hp верхние стеньги, несущие брамсели и бом-брамсели (последних у других 4-х рейтов нет),

- повышенная прочность и толщина кормы, компенсирующая урон экипажу через стекла (в вышеуказанном романе: "От кормовых окон ни лучика света: стекла замены на крепкую древесину..."),

- встроенные в корму 9ф пушки Бломфилда или нави-ганы (поставляемые автоматически на сделанном Леопарде, и только на этом корабле обладающие повышенным пробоем, позволяющем пробивать и сбивать с 20 м мачты линкоров и Консты - допустим толщиной до 130 см),

- добавка к морали, например как у перманентов бренди- и винного рационов: Леопард известен случаем, произошедшим в 1807 году, когда железная воля его капитана позволила путем применения к USS Чезапик огня на поражения, добиться выдачи дезертиров с Роял-нави в американский флот.

На мой взгляд эти или другие фичи Леопарда позволили бы этому ДЛС подняться до легендарного от просто "старого, доброго Леопарда"  чтобы это был не какой-то, а тот самый Леопард капитана  Джека Обри (из его письма: "Леопард...нравится мне чрезвычайно. Бег у него почти как у "Сюрприза", резвый ходок в бейдевинд, хорошо слушается руля...")

Чтобы полюбившийся корабль хотели купить и уже прокачивать его слоты, а не разбирать с надеждой получить побольше высушенных бревен.

 ДЛС Ратвизан тоже можно было бы сделать легендарным, учитывая, что в Афонском сражении этот корабль был вторым флагманом (адмирал А.С. Грейг), успешно преследовавшим побежденных турок:

- еще уменьшить "прогиб" розы ветров Ратвизана точно по ветру (единственному курсу, по которому корабль при прочих равных обгоняет Консту) - тогда у ДЛС -4-ых рейтов были бы разные фичи: Ратвизан с элитным испанским рефитом мог бы кайтить ту же Консту или Тринкомали, не поворачивая от курса фордевинд, а Леопард, напротив, используя хороший ход в бейдевинд, менял бы галсы или периодически бы уваливался под ветер и стрелял бы бортом по преследователям, находящимся под ветром, в том числе под ватерлинию. "Кусающийся Леопард".

- уменьшить крен Ратвизана и его снос (корабль был значительно шире Леопарда, а следовательно - остойчивее). "Справедливость", не сбивающаяся с курса (швед. rattvisan - справедливость, захваченный у шведов Ратвизан в русском флоте название не менял), "справедливое неуклонное возмездие" (учитывая 6 погонных орудий).

Конечно, при выдаче целого набора фич, можно понерфить некоторые ТТХ. У Леопарда исторически на 2-й деке стояли 12ф лонги - людей, чтобы обслуживать 18ф пушки на нем мало.  Под бом-брамселями крен у Леопарда мог быть увеличенным. У Ратвизана можно было бы уменьшить ход в бейдевинд.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Rolando

[DeRuyter]

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 5:42 PM, Liq said:

 

Also, it has 52 nominal guns, not 50

She should have 50 nominal guns - 22/22/6

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=636

@admin

Also no carronades on main deck at all IRL. But I would suggest that 32 lb carronades would be correct for the upper gun deck .  The RN experimented with 68 lb carronades on the main gundeck of the 4th rate HMS Glatton but quickly changed to 18 lb long guns with 32 carronades on the upper gun deck. That ship was ultimately cut down to a 44 and armed like a 5th rate with upper deck 32s. That size seemed to be the carronade of choice for upper deck or spar deck armament. 

(IMO heavy carronades on the main gun deck - like the 42s on the Indy or 32s on a Trinc should be removed anyway.) 

[Louis Garneray]

On 12/2/2019 at 1:38 AM, Rolando said:

something in Russian

By the way since this part of the forum is in English it would be nice if everybody had the courtesy to speak in English or put the translation in English so I don't have to do the extra thing to understand what you are writing.
My first language is French and I make the effort to write in English.

[Rolando]

On 12/3/2019 at 8:05 PM, Louis Garneray said:

By the way since this part of the forum is in English...

The Leopard's data on www.na-netlify.com claim that the Leopard has very strong top masts (600+ hp), which are more than twice as strong as Ratvisan’s top masts. Is this really so?

In general, bonuses of (S) wood types correspond the historical strengthening of the Leopard with the Snodgrass diagonals and Robert's iron knits.

However, with the current "rose of winds", the Leopard loses to the slower Ratvisan, both downwind and upwind. This makes the Leopard intercepted by the Connie, whose "wind rose" completely dominates thows one of the Leopard.

Patrick O'Brian’s novel Desolation Island (1978) describes how Jack Aubrey "spoilt the beauty of the great cabin [HMS Leopard's great cabin!] by causing Mr Gray to build the equivalent of a deep wing-transom, with the corresponding knees, massive enough to withstand the recoil of his brass nine-pounders, so that by removing the stern windows as though to ship deadlights, together with some of the gingerbread-work from the gallery, he could use them as chasers, firing from a higher station than the more usual gunroom ports"

I understand that this is the author's fantasy used in the novel, so Aubrey's 9p gun shot down the foremast of the battleship chasing after the Leopard and the last won in an unequal struggle ("My God, oh my God," Aubrey said. "Six hundred men [sunk]"). But these fictional details show how vulnerable the Leopard's stern in Naval Action, the beautiful stern with only two low-mounted guns. 4th rates with this disadvantage are:

the Ingermanland (the much more maneuverable , with a 32p lower deck guns),

the Agamemnon (more durable and having more firepower), 

the Indefateable (faster then the Leorard, which  distinctive feature is the possibility of installing on two decks 42p carronades).

This state of affairs, in my opinion, presupposes that the Leopard will receive some compensating features:

increasing the Leopard's maneuver to at least Rattvisan's 2.5,

increasing the Leopard's crew to at least Indefatigable's 415,

increasing the Leopard's upwind speed to at least the Connie's one

and also:

- the top masts of the Leopard (that are really reinforced - thickness and hp), carrying topsails and skysails (the other 4th rates do not have both of them),

- increased strength (hp) and thickness of the stern, compensating for the damage to the crew through the windows (the novel describes "not a ray of light from the stern windows, glass replaced for strong wood ..."),

- 9p Blomfield guns or Navy guns built into the stern  (delivered automatically when building the Leopard, and only on this ship 9p have increased breakdown that allows piercing and knocking down masts of battleships and the Connie from 20 m - let's say up to 130 cm thickness of thier masts),

- an addition to morality, for example, such as brandy and wine rations. The real Leopard is known for the incident that occurred in 1807 when her captain’s will allowed to ensure to capture people who deserted from the Royal Navy - The real Leopard  broadsided the USS Chesapeake.

In my opinion, these or any other Leopard's features would allow this DLS to rise to the legendary one from just the “good old Leopard” so that it will the same Leopard of captain Jack Aubrey (his letter to Sophie: "The Leopard, apart from her new-fangled stern-post and pinties, which give us some little concern, pleases me extremely; she reaches almost as well as the Surprise, is brisk in stays, steers easy...")

So NA-players would like to buy their favorite ship, the Leopard and they already to pump its slots, and not to disassemble the Leopard with the hope of getting more (S) logs.

The Rattvisan's DLC could also be made legendary. The Rattvisan was the second flagship (russean admiral A.S. Greig) in the Athos battle (1807), successfully pursued the defeated Turks:

- to further reduce the "deflection" of the rose of Rattvisan's winds exactly downwind (the only course at which this ship successfully leaves from the Connie with other things being equal) - then the DLC of 4th rates would have different features: the Rattvisan (with the Elite Spanish refit) could make holes in Connies sails or in Trinco's sails, without turning the fordewind (downwind) course, and the Leopard, on the contrary, using a good upwind speed, would change the tactics of running away and periodically fall down the wind and broadside under the enemy's waterline. "Biting Leopard."

- reduce the roll of the Rattvisan and its demolition (the ship was much wider than the Leopard, and therefore more stable). “Rightness”, which does not stray from the course (Sweden "Rättvisan" - "rightness". The Ratvisan captured and was included to the Russian Imperator's fleet but she did not change her name), “fair, steady retaliation” (considering  Rattvisan's 6 bow guns).

Of course, when issuing a whole set of features, you can reduce some characteristics. The Leopard historically had 12p long canons on gundeck (2nd deck) — there are few people to service the 18p long guns. The Leopard using topsails and skysayls could heel too much. You can also reduce the Rattvisan's upwind speed.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Rolando

[Never]

On 11/30/2019 at 10:59 AM, Bryan Von Gyldenloeve said:

What are you saying? We should Lie on oure rewiews ore stay silent? I personally think ppl should say what they believe is the truth, you disagree on that?

Btw have you see the last rewievs on steam. It said mainly posetive.

No lol, you're just putting words in my mouth. I was simply comparing the impact of the lack of adverts vs the bad reviews. And yeah I'm the reviews are positive, I wrote one myself. But positive reviews now as much good as they do, they don't erase all the months/years the game had negative/mixed average reviews. If you read most of those negative reviews, they came from people with 1000s of hours of play time who didn't like some change that was made and or a personal issue with someone in this forum, not all but a good number of them. 

Sorry for off topic. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Never

[captain smile]

Bow to bow leopard vs Constitution , the constit loose , should be other way around i guess . 

[captain smile]

17 hours ago, Rolando said:

The Leopard's data on www.na-netlify.com claim that the Leopard has very strong top masts (600+ hp), which are more than twice as strong as Ratvisan’s top masts. Is this really so?

In general, bonuses of (S) wood types correspond the historical strengthening of the Leopard with the Snodgrass diagonals and Robert's iron knits.

However, with the current "rose of winds", the Leopard loses to the slower Ratvisan, both downwind and upwind. This makes the Leopard intercepted by the Connie, whose "wind rose" completely dominates thows one of the Leopard.

Patrick O'Brian’s novel Desolation Island (1978) describes how Jack Aubrey "spoilt the beauty of the great cabin [HMS Leopard's great cabin!] by causing Mr Gray to build the equivalent of a deep wing-transom, with the corresponding knees, massive enough to withstand the recoil of his brass nine-pounders, so that by removing the stern windows as though to ship deadlights, together with some of the gingerbread-work from the gallery, he could use them as chasers, firing from a higher station than the more usual gunroom ports"

I understand that this is the author's fantasy used in the novel, so Aubrey's 9p gun shot down the foremast of the battleship chasing after the Leopard and the last won in an unequal struggle ("My God, oh my God," Aubrey said. "Six hundred men [sunk]"). But these fictional details show how vulnerable the Leopard's stern in Naval Action, the beautiful stern with only two low-mounted guns. 4th rates with this disadvantage are:

the Ingermanland (the much more maneuverable , with a 32p lower deck guns),

the Agamemnon (more durable and having more firepower), 

the Indefateable (faster then the Leorard, which  distinctive feature is the possibility of installing on two decks 42p carronades).

This state of affairs, in my opinion, presupposes that the Leopard will receive some compensating features:

increasing the Leopard's maneuver to at least Rattvisan's 2.5,

increasing the Leopard's crew to at least Indefatigable's 415,

increasing the Leopard's upwind speed to at least the Connie's one

and also:

- the top masts of the Leopard (that are really reinforced - thickness and hp), carrying topsails and skysails (the other 4th rates do not have both of them),

- increased strength (hp) and thickness of the stern, compensating for the damage to the crew through the windows (the novel describes "not a ray of light from the stern windows, glass replaced for strong wood ..."),

- 9p Blomfield guns or Navy guns built into the stern  (delivered automatically when building the Leopard, and only on this ship 9p have increased breakdown that allows piercing and knocking down masts of battleships and the Connie from 20 m - let's say up to 130 cm thickness of thier masts),

- an addition to morality, for example, such as brandy and wine rations. The real Leopard is known for the incident that occurred in 1807 when her captain’s will allowed to ensure to capture people who deserted from the Royal Navy - The real Leopard  broadsided the USS Chesapeake.

In my opinion, these or any other Leopard's features would allow this DLS to rise to the legendary one from just the “good old Leopard” so that it will the same Leopard of captain Jack Aubrey (his letter to Sophie: "The Leopard, apart from her new-fangled stern-post and pinties, which give us some little concern, pleases me extremely; she reaches almost as well as the Surprise, is brisk in stays, steers easy...")

So NA-players would like to buy their favorite ship, the Leopard and they already to pump its slots, and not to disassemble the Leopard with the hope of getting more (S) logs.

The Rattvisan's DLC could also be made legendary. The Rattvisan was the second flagship (russean admiral A.S. Greig) in the Athos battle (1807), successfully pursued the defeated Turks:

- to further reduce the "deflection" of the rose of Rattvisan's winds exactly downwind (the only course at which this ship successfully leaves from the Connie with other things being equal) - then the DLC of 4th rates would have different features: the Rattvisan (with the Elite Spanish refit) could make holes in Connies sails or in Trinco's sails, without turning the fordewind (downwind) course, and the Leopard, on the contrary, using a good upwind speed, would change the tactics of running away and periodically fall down the wind and broadside under the enemy's waterline. "Biting Leopard."

- reduce the roll of the Rattvisan and its demolition (the ship was much wider than the Leopard, and therefore more stable). “Rightness”, which does not stray from the course (Sweden "Rättvisan" - "rightness". The Ratvisan captured and was included to the Russian Imperator's fleet but she did not change her name), “fair, steady retaliation” (considering  Rattvisan's 6 bow guns).

Of course, when issuing a whole set of features, you can reduce some characteristics. The Leopard historically had 12p long canons on gundeck (2nd deck) — there are few people to service the 18p long guns. The Leopard using topsails and skysayls could heel too much. You can also reduce the Rattvisan's upwind speed.

You are well informed Sir Rolando 👍

[LeBoiteux]

On 12/3/2019 at 4:17 PM, DeRuyter said:

She should have 50 nominal guns - 22/22/6

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=636

@admin

Also no carronades on main deck at all IRL. But I would suggest that 32 lb carronades would be correct for the upper gun deck .  The RN experimented with 68 lb carronades on the main gundeck of the 4th rate HMS Glatton but quickly changed to 18 lb long guns with 32 carronades on the upper gun deck. That ship was ultimately cut down to a 44 and armed like a 5th rate with upper deck 32s. That size seemed to be the carronade of choice for upper deck or spar deck armament. 

(IMO heavy carronades on the main gun deck - like the 42s on the Indy or 32s on a Trinc should be removed anyway.) 

You, like others (we both know of), may expect from NA to be a game designed to be historically/realistically accurate while it is above all a combat/MMO game dressed with a pinch of history and accurate 3d ship models. 🙂

[z4ys]

If paint will ever be a thing for the good old leo i would vote for this one here. Its so much better than the other black and white one.

[z4ys]

Really nice ship its fun sailing her.

[Rolando]

On 12/4/2019 at 11:19 PM, Rolando said:

The Leopard's data on www.na-netlify.com claim that the Leopard has very strong top masts (600+ hp), which are more than twice as strong as Ratvisan’s top masts. Is this really so?

In general, bonuses of (S) wood types correspond the historical strengthening of the Leopard with the Snodgrass diagonals and Robert's iron knits.

However, with the current "rose of winds", the Leopard loses to the slower Ratvisan, both downwind and upwind. This makes the Leopard intercepted by the Connie, whose "wind rose" completely dominates thows one of the Leopard.

Patrick O'Brian’s novel Desolation Island (1978) describes how Jack Aubrey "spoilt the beauty of the great cabin [HMS Leopard's great cabin!] by causing Mr Gray to build the equivalent of a deep wing-transom, with the corresponding knees, massive enough to withstand the recoil of his brass nine-pounders, so that by removing the stern windows as though to ship deadlights, together with some of the gingerbread-work from the gallery, he could use them as chasers, firing from a higher station than the more usual gunroom ports"

I understand that this is the author's fantasy used in the novel, so Aubrey's 9p gun shot down the foremast of the battleship chasing after the Leopard and the last won in an unequal struggle ("My God, oh my God," Aubrey said. "Six hundred men [sunk]"). But these fictional details show how vulnerable the Leopard's stern in Naval Action, the beautiful stern with only two low-mounted guns. 4th rates with this disadvantage are:

the Ingermanland (the much more maneuverable , with a 32p lower deck guns),

the Agamemnon (more durable and having more firepower), 

the Indefateable (faster then the Leorard, which  distinctive feature is the possibility of installing on two decks 42p carronades).

This state of affairs, in my opinion, presupposes that the Leopard will receive some compensating features:

increasing the Leopard's maneuver to at least Rattvisan's 2.5,

increasing the Leopard's crew to at least Indefatigable's 415,

increasing the Leopard's upwind speed to at least the Connie's one

and also:

- the top masts of the Leopard (that are really reinforced - thickness and hp), carrying topsails and skysails (the other 4th rates do not have both of them),

- increased strength (hp) and thickness of the stern, compensating for the damage to the crew through the windows (the novel describes "not a ray of light from the stern windows, glass replaced for strong wood ..."),

- 9p Blomfield guns or Navy guns built into the stern  (delivered automatically when building the Leopard, and only on this ship 9p have increased breakdown that allows piercing and knocking down masts of battleships and the Connie from 20 m - let's say up to 130 cm thickness of thier masts),

- an addition to morality, for example, such as brandy and wine rations. The real Leopard is known for the incident that occurred in 1807 when her captain’s will allowed to ensure to capture people who deserted from the Royal Navy - The real Leopard  broadsided the USS Chesapeake.

In my opinion, these or any other Leopard's features would allow this DLS to rise to the legendary one from just the “good old Leopard” so that it will the same Leopard of captain Jack Aubrey (his letter to Sophie: "The Leopard, apart from her new-fangled stern-post and pinties, which give us some little concern, pleases me extremely; she reaches almost as well as the Surprise, is brisk in stays, steers easy...")

So NA-players would like to buy their favorite ship, the Leopard and they already to pump its slots, and not to disassemble the Leopard with the hope of getting more (S) logs.

The Rattvisan's DLC could also be made legendary. The Rattvisan was the second flagship (russean admiral A.S. Greig) in the Athos battle (1807), successfully pursued the defeated Turks:

- to further reduce the "deflection" of the rose of Rattvisan's winds exactly downwind (the only course at which this ship successfully leaves from the Connie with other things being equal) - then the DLC of 4th rates would have different features: the Rattvisan (with the Elite Spanish refit) could make holes in Connies sails or in Trinco's sails, without turning the fordewind (downwind) course, and the Leopard, on the contrary, using a good upwind speed, would change the tactics of running away and periodically fall down the wind and broadside under the enemy's waterline. "Biting Leopard."

- reduce the roll of the Rattvisan and its demolition (the ship was much wider than the Leopard, and therefore more stable). “Rightness”, which does not stray from the course (Sweden "Rättvisan" - "rightness". The Ratvisan captured and was included to the Russian Imperator's fleet but she did not change her name), “fair, steady retaliation” (considering  Rattvisan's 6 bow guns).

Of course, when issuing a whole set of features, you can reduce some characteristics. The Leopard historically had 12p long canons on gundeck (2nd deck) — there are few people to service the 18p long guns. The Leopard using topsails and skysayls could heel too much. You can also reduce the Rattvisan's upwind speed.

В свете появления ДЛС-Редутабля, Имплакейбла, возможное усиление ТТХ ДЛС-Леопарда и ДЛС- Ратвизана становится еще более актуальным.

[Smoothie]

 Leopard got no paint so far?