5th rate variation (renamed from Trincomalee)

[Kejsaren]

I suggest making Trincomalee a permit ship. Ship is too strong compared to other 5th rates that I don't see why she is not behind permit like the Endymion is. 

Only the strongest ships of each class should be behind permit. To make ship rarer. As it is now, Trinco is the strongest and the most commonly used pvp 5th rate.

Makes little sense in terms of variation of ships in use.

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Singh

[Salty Sails]

A ship is only powerful with a good player on it.

So, you can lose with bigger ships and more guns against a small ship with a good captain.

[Kejsaren]

1 hour ago, Salty Sails said:

A ship is only powerful with a good player on it.

So, you can lose with bigger ships and more guns against a small ship with a good captain.

Of course, but that is not relevant. I'm comparing ship vs ship regardless of captain. 

[Kejsaren]

11 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Imo, not a lot of ships to choose from, specially when a lot of them are not being used at all due to bad balance among ships and rvr mechanics.

That's what I mean, wouldn't matter if there were 2000 ships to choose from if only 1 or 2 out of those 2000 are unmatched. Only reason you don't see Endys everywhere is because of permit.

Trinco no permit needed thus it will remain the ship of choice for anyone who want to be competitive in 5th class range. And since neither ship balance or rvr mechanics seem to be heading towards improvement anytime soon, my suggestion would help bring some variety at least.

Only reason to sail other ships would be to hunt small targets or be part of gank groups really. But if you want to sail and encounter same ships over and over, then by all means let's not change a thing..😉

[erelkivtuadrater]

58 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Imo, not a lot of ships to choose from, specially when a lot of them are not being used at all due to bad balance among ships and rvr mechanics.

The balance you're pointing towards is i fact because the trinc is Free to craft without permit. 

Do you think its more fair towards a player if he rolls up with his Frigate, say permit droppes from chest after a hard fought battle vs elite ai.

You just roll up in your Free crafted trinc and wrecks him. There is your balance. 

IMO weakest (BR) ship of each rate up to 3rd should be the only ones that could be crafted without permits. Rest drop permits from chests, 2-3rd rate permits drop from normal chest and deadmans chests, while 1st rates drop from epic chest in epic events. 

So in shorter words, if you do ingame content and not grinding the same thing 24/7 you should Esther be rewarded for that. And the harder the content the better loot

[AeRoTR]

What are you gonna do when pvp hunters keep coming with trinco and endymion, and they will keep coming, I assure you. Are you gonna fight with a frigate or surprise against them? 

Currently Trinco is your ticket to a fair fight. 

Main problem is, 5th rate ships other than endy, trinco, diana, santa cecilia etc. are very very weak on terms of hp and firepower. So they will get crushed if the guy in Endy etc. is half decent. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by AeRoTR

[LeBoiteux]

3 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

Main problem is, 5th rate ships other than endy, trinco, diana, santa cecilia etc. are very very weak on terms of hp and firepower. So they will get crushed if the guy in Endy etc. is half decent. 

 

 

Comparing the lightest in-game 5th Rates (such as the Cerberus) and the heaviest ones (like the Trincomalee) is like comparing the WWI aircrafts/tanks and the WWII ones (or let's say early-WWII ones vs late-WWII ones) and wanting to make the lightest ones as competitive as the heaviest ones is a nonsense. IRL :

• Cerberus : built in 1758, 6th-rate, 28 guns, heaviest guns : 9-pdr, length of gundeck : 119'
• Trincomalee : built in 1816, 5th-rate, 50 guns, heaviest guns : 18-pdr, length of gundeck : 150'

Devs's choice to give most of the in-game 5th Rates 32-pdr full-carro is already a tool to reduce this RL gap between them.

Edited November 17, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Kejsaren]

There should be at least 5 "TOP NOTCH" 5th rate ships. To have variety. Right now we have 2, and one is permit. That leaves us with 1 craftable ship that is best of 5th rates. Our beloved Trincomalee.

How do we do that?, 3 ways:

 

1. Nerf Trinco/Endy 

or

2. Buff other ships

or

3. Introduce more ships that are strong as Trinco/Endy (in my opinion best solution)

 

Right now in shallow water we have several ships that can take on eachother.

 

1. Surprise

2. Hercules

3. Pandora

4. Renomee

 

These 4 are very competitive to eachother. There is a reason I see all of them in shallows. 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Singh

[Captain2Strong]

no

just remove all other permits

and it's normal that trinco is more powerful than surp because it requires more wood and other resources (of course some changes could be applied to stats of ships, but not too much)

and adding more ships is a nice thing, so yeah, it shouldn't hurt to add them

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Captain2Strong

[LeBoiteux]

53 minutes ago, Singh said:

3. Introduce more ships that are strong as Trinco/Endy (in my opinion best solution)

Right now in shallow water we have several ships that can take on eachother.

1. Surprise

2. Hercules

3. Pandora

4. Renomee

These 4 are very competitive to eachother. There is a reason I see all of them in shallows. 

if we take this very interesting reasoning of yours further, there should be reserved areas (such as the current shallow waters) where :

• only the 9-pdr frigates (and smaller ships) meet and fight (Surprise, Hercules, Pandora, Renommée)
• only the 12-pdr frigates (and smaller ships) meet (L'Hermione, Belle Poule...)
• only the 18/24-pdr frigates (and...) meet (Trincomalee, Endymion...)
• only the 7th rates meets 
• only the 6-pdr ships meets
• etc.

@DeRuyter ... 😉

Edited November 17, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[AeRoTR]

@LeBoiteux you have a very interesting view point, you express that many time.

Let's remember this is a game. Why should I use any other ship, other than Endy or Trinco, excluding free DLC ships? 

These golden boys has near similiar hp, thickness and broadside power compared to other 4th rates, and they are much faster. They have similiar speed to other 5th rates but they are double their hp, firepower. 

So it is natural and normal, we are all sailing endy, trinco etc., but why do we have the remaining ones? 

[erelkivtuadrater]

there is a reason why games like WoW etc have abandoned the idea to get high tier items from doing low tier contents btw, people dont care about the grind as long its fun and rewarding hence why classic wow is such a loved game compared to retail wow

Edited November 17, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[LeBoiteux]

@AeRoTR we agree with each other on the issue, not on the solution. You're surely right. I keep quiet from now on 🙂

[z4ys]

Rebalance is coming (sooon)

[LeBoiteux]

6 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Are you now part of the development team?

just a reader of the forum I guess 🙂

[z4ys]

21 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

I still havent seen the word soon.

Also admin has stated several times they wont change the priorities.

Sorry that this small word soon which means in game industry something like within the next 2 years caused so much confusion.

Definition of soon(TM)  

Describes something that we are told is coming soon (game updates, TV shows, etc.) but we have heard it enough times to know better. 

And yes @LeBoiteux is right my statement is related to that admin post. 

And regarding priorities Rebalance can be part of the combat improvement.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by z4ys

[Khovey]

On 11/16/2019 at 12:21 PM, Singh said:

I suggest making Trincomalee a permit ship. Ship is too strong compared to other 5th rates that I don't see why she is not behind permit like the Endymion is.

I think this is one solution but maybe not the best solution. I think the way to encourage more variety is to give other 5th rates some sort of advantage over the heavy frigates like Endymion and Trinc. The most reasonable advantages would be better sailing profiles (particularly upwind) and turn rates for smaller ships. This can give skilled captains a better chance against heavier opponents. We already know that this can work because ships like the snow in skilled hands can stern camp and kill much larger 5th rates and it is balanced by their squishiness (low hp and thickness).

Obviously, this takes more work for the devs to implement compared to just making the Trinc a permit ship since it requires a lot of small changes. However, like @AeRoTR said, if we make the Trinc a permit ship it will usually give veteran players (either people very good at pvp or people that grind a lot) an advantage instead of making the engagement based on skill.

Alternatively, we can nerf the Trinc and Endymion in some way, either hp or sailing profile/speed. I think it's pretty obvious that the Endymion needs a nerf anyway.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Khovey

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

21 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

@LeBoiteux you have a very interesting view point, you express that many time.

Let's remember this is a game. Why should I use any other ship, other than Endy or Trinco, excluding free DLC ships? 

These golden boys has near similiar hp, thickness and broadside power compared to other 4th rates, and they are much faster. They have similiar speed to other 5th rates but they are double their hp, firepower. 

So it is natural and normal, we are all sailing endy, trinco etc., but why do we have the remaining ones? 

Because the other vessels are fun my friend :). But of course, for  stacking pvp-kills and feeling super-strong (leaderboard haha) they do not match. For the golden boys: just one vessel called "ship" would be enough. ah no. they don´t have weaker targets to smash then. tricky situation. i´m against permit-walls by the way.

[Aquillas]

I never understood really the reason for permit wall.

I read that this is for limiting the number of big ships in the open world. As a result, only 1st rates, Christians, Wasas ans Trincs can be seen. Great variety!  Great achievement of permitting...

But this is absolutely normal, and players can't be blamed, because all recent content is made for big ships only, preferably 1st rates: PB's in which 1st rates only can come in (for max BR reasons), raids, NPC PB's are for 1st rates only. All new content is for 1st rates only. 

Smaller ships are all sentenced to death. Nerfing trade missions, nerfing mortars, just removed smaller ships out of the game and out of PBs. Because they have no content, except one: new players in small ship or in undercrewed medium ship must be and stay easy victims for veterans in charge of the leaderboard kikimeter.

So that, in fact, veterans in small and medium ships are just to try and help new players starting in game. This is a fact, and this will stay like that because nothing is announced in the development plan to change that fact. Veterans in small ships are just baby-keepers. Hardly recruiting function,  but in fact, baby killers are more rewarded in game than baby keepers,  maybe one of the reasons of the poor player retention in this game.

Permits do not help. Permits are all toxic. 

[Aquillas]

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

And probably permits encourage more pve grinding cause who doesnt like the endymion, the new model of the conie, bellona, christian or santisima?

I don't like them. None of them. I have zero slot on them, in fact zero XP on any of these ships.  And not at all interested in developing XP on them.

People and developers have to admit the fact that some players will never be found of using big tanks, otherwise I would play World of Tanks.

Some players have stats similar to mine:

• I have presently 4000+ hours in game on my main account.
• I have zero XP in any 1st rate. I have no 1st rate on my docks.
• I have zero XP in any 2nd rate. I have no 2nd rate on my docks.
• I have zero XP in any 3rd rate. I have one Wasa on my docks, a gift by a mate. I never used it. 
• I have 2 slots free on one 4th rate (Ruattvisan), mainly due to screen battles, otherwise I almost don't use it.
• I unslotted completely the Xebec, for participation to PB. Useless development,  because PB's are for 1st rates only at the moment. I have 1 or 2 slots on the Pandora and the Hermione, the only 5th rates I used since wipe. I tried the Trinc and scrapped it.

And I pretend to play Naval Action, in spite of regular "irony" (and even insults) from capital gankers: "Aquillas, when will you come in fight in a real ship?".

@admin, is my Navy Brig a real ship?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Aquillas

[Earl of Grey]

I dont understand why all ships have to be completely balanced. No one is forced to sail a "bad" ship ... 

Sure some diversity is nice ... but all the effort only for deversity? 

In my opinion this all the time demand of balancing is wasting devs time, If you thinky Endy is OP, just sail an Endy! 

Imagine we have 10 more ships in the Game: the balancing effort would rise and rise and rise ... 

Btw: dont forget the balancing by price that the Players do themselve (think thats the reason behind the permits). Endy is at least 5 times more expensive than a trinco ... 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Earl of Grey

[Kejsaren]

1 hour ago, Earl of Grey said:

I dont understand why all ships have to be completely balanced. No one is forced to sail a "bad" ship ... 

Sure some diversity is nice ... but all the effort only for deversity? 

In my opinion this all the time demand of balancing is wasting devs time, If you thinky Endy is OP, just sail an Endy! 

Imagine we have 10 more ships in the Game: the balancing effort would rise and rise and rise ... 

Btw: dont forget the balancing by price that the Players do themselve (think thats the reason behind the permits). Endy is at least 5 times more expensive than a trinco ... 

You are wrong, because you are more or less forced to sail either Endymion or Trincomalee. Unless you are out ganking or just hunting traders or small ships.

Why?... because most 5th rates you encounter are Endymion/Trincomalee and if you engage it in anything less then an Endymion/Trincomalee you are going to get smashed so hard and so fast you hardly know what hit you. Yes, yes if you are Captain Amazing and engage Mr Noob you can win anyway but that's not the point.

You think balancing ships is waste of time, well I strongly disagree i would even call it top priority to be honest. (Loki Rune, Ships log book bla bla are what I would call a waste of time, or less priority at least).

And if not going to balance ships then no reason to even add more ships, because ships that are crap, are not used and just waste. Just look at LGV refit... a complete waste of ship that was more or less left unused when it was in game.

Not saying every ship needs to be perfectly balanced, but the gap between the two top dogs and the rest is so wide that we have no variation.

 

That's all. That's it and that's the way it is.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Singh

[Khovey]

Edit: deleted because identical to my post on page 1

Edited November 19, 2019 by Khovey

[DeRuyter]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 6:49 AM, LeBoiteux said:

if we take this very interesting reasoning of yours further, there should be reserved areas (such as the current shallow waters) where :

• only the 9-pdr frigates (and smaller ships) meet and fight (Surprise, Hercules, Pandora, Renommée)
• only the 12-pdr frigates (and smaller ships) meet (L'Hermione, Belle Poule...)
• only the 18/24-pdr frigates (and...) meet (Trincomalee, Endymion...)
• only the 7th rates meets 
• only the 6-pdr ships meets
• etc.

@DeRuyter ... 😉

That looks suspiciously like some kind of arena game with matches determined by BR 😉

Actually I like your earlier thought that giving main deck carronades to smaller ships helps. 

I would go a step further: Remove main deck carronades from the larger ships like Trinc/Endy and Indy. Realism bonus none of them carried main deck carronades IRL!  Trinc - 18lb battery on main deck. 

[LeBoiteux]

47 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

That looks suspiciously like some kind of arena game with matches determined by BR 😉

 

the wink was more about showing you I wasn't the only one using a classification based on pdr than my actual asking you to take the time to give your opinion about what I wrote. Thanks for that.

47 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

Realism bonus none of them carried main deck carronades IRL!

Neither did the 9-pdr frigates of the game (except maybe the British version of the Surprise, according to some NA posts iirc, but not to R. Winfield, British Warships in the Age of Sail). Neither did the 12-pdr L'Hermione...

The 9-pdr frigate La Renommée built in 1747 and broken up years before the invention of carronades should be the queen of the frigates in her ocean with her 9-pdr guns... like lots of other frigates. That's the impossible equation. Reserved areas was just an attempt to solve it. At least there are the shallow waters for the 9-pdr frigates.

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by LeBoiteux