Line of Battle Discussion

[greybuscat]

Not saying line tactics have no place here but also stop harassing people because "OMG this isn't a proper line". Sorry I'm done now.

On a happier note (spoiler alert: gloating) I sank a constitution in my trincomalee last night and scored over 14k in damage in one game. Had to tell someone cause my wife didn't care.

 

That's the equally important, but separate, issue of what we call "jerks." We should all try to assume this is for educational purposes, because jerks are going to be jerks whether it's about a battle line or whatever else pops into their heads. Usually it's just "I hate losing, so here's a bunch of excuses and angry ranting."

 

Also, congratulations.

[Prater]

A perfect line isn't necessary.  My battle yesterday didn't have a perfect line and that was fine.  However, this doesn't mean that a frigate goes off on its own and does its own thing, hurting his team.

 

A big no no is getting next to your sols.  We had a 40 person battle in pvp the other night where I was in a surprise and we had frigates continually getting right up next to our line ships, completely blocking their fire.  Each time I'd ask them to move.  This is common sense.

[Sir_Bass_Alot]

Take this with a grain of sand as I'm currently not sailing an SOL, but hope to someday, and fully appreciate those captains that are willing to try to lead whatever fleet they have been dealt into battle. But a few observations based upon recent battles. 

 

First-I'm not sure what the rush is to get sailing immediately at the start of the game, other than to have steerage way.  The other night our SOL's were scattered, as usual, at the beginning and the lead two SOL's took off at full sail and left the others behind not able to catch up. One battle was a misty one and until I checked the list didn't even realize there was another Santi at the back somewhere. I would suggest some patience early on to at least form up the SOL's into whatever line the lead ship wants.

 

Secondly-When starting from the British position generally there is a starboard arc toward the French, which makes sense. But too often this results in a hard U-turn to port, I assume to retain the wind advantage.  The result is a swirl of ships in the U-turn like a toilet bowl. Suddenly, small ships are caught between friendly and enemy SOL's blocking line of sight or are forced to cut across the friendly line to resume a position behind the line which has it's own unpleasant result of ramming into your team mates.  Neither result is a positive outcome especially since the turn tends to be toward the wind.  Again, I don't have an issue with this maneuver per se, but I guess it just gets back to the fundamental of communication.  If that is what the lead SOL wants to do, just type out a new heading and the rest of us can adjust accordingly.

 

One last question.  Is a Constitution considered a line ship or a frigate when it comes to assignments?  Or is it purely situational? i.e. If there is only one SOL then does the Coni act like it's a line scenario or if there are 4 other SOL's and evenly matched should it assume a frigate role?

[Max Thundercroc]

I've been writing up SOPs (standard operating procedures) and TTPs (tactics, techniques, practices) for different configurations of fleets. I'm going to post some of them up when they are done for feedback but a lot of what I have been looking into, and practicing in game when I can convince someone to come along. Are wolfpack type attacks by frigates and faster ships. Such as using two surprises and a trincomalee to force a bellona or SoL out of a line and pick him off, to attack stragglers before they can regroup, and even using a small number of ships to disrupt the enemies formations (which hilariously leads to many collision on their side) and to cause general confusion.

 

For larger ships except maybe the bellona the best tactic for them is usually to line up and concentrate fire but the value of constitutions and below is lost in line formations. In frigates current forms fast disruptive and coordinated attacks aimed at weak spots in an enemies formation is the way to go. Also I have also been using the trincomalee a lot to "dive in" and find ways to help my teams SoL's when they are cut off or outnumbered. Something I found very helpful in a game the other day...two bellonas had won the stern of an injured Victory and he was having a hard to getting shots on them as turning one way would open him  to a rake from the other side. Well I decided to try and help so I told him to turn hard with the wind and when the bellonas tried to turn to follow him I laid the middle of my ship into the inside ones bow and turned against him using my whole ships sails to overcome the turning power of his main and rear (missen I believe) mast. It worked well he was unable to follow the Vic and the second bellona had to turn into the wind to avoid colliding with us, being unprepared for a tack he got stuck in irons and the vic managed to come about and bring his guns to bear on them. I took some damage but only half my ship was in the bellonas arc of fire and the second one couldn't fire on me without hitting the first more. They complained that I purposely rammed them, which I admitted to because...well I did. But it wasn't a griefing ram it was coordinated and planned action to gain a tactical advantage.

 

From what I am seeing current armor doctrine will work well in this game. Not so much current naval doctrine as that is built around battle groups with carriers being the main component. Also the difference in weapons and submarine warfare makes current naval doctrine nearly useless to this game. Current Maneuver and armor warfare doctrine still has some legitimacy though.

[Grim DeGrim]

@Sir_Basd_Alot:

I am always a student first, an by no means an expert. My opinion on the quick sail start:

One school of thought is that the more desirable line fight position is to be downwind. This is for favourable heel for additional range, as well as having your opponent cursed with unfavorable heel. So I generally define "taking the wind" as giving my opponent the upwind position in this scenario (which is counter intuitive, as taking the wind generally means securing the upwind position).

The 2nd school of thought is to wait and collect all the SOLs into a mass grouping, and then try to get a wind neutral position for line fight. This might be done by sending faster frigate ahead to push off enemy ships by working their lead ship.

Kind of situational. I'm looking forward to land masses and shallow areas to add more complexity to maneuvers.

I will add, I prefer the upwind position where I have lighter ships that can Stern camp.

[Crankey]

I use several different tactics in game, however a corking tactic often fails because the rest of the fleet are so used to doing the same thing they fear the unknown and you end up leading, then being isolated and blasted out of the water because the rest of the fleet bottle out.

 

You often lead your side if you are the biggest ship, however it is sad when you see people expect the ridiculous. eg you are the Santi, everyone says follow the Santi, you spawn to the rear of the group and eveyone sits tight until you've gone past everyone and the enemy have grabbed the initiative. Nothing wrong with having the Santi to the rear of the formed line, you just need to make sure range and angle permit it to fire.

 

You find SOL's hiding to leeward of you instead of getting in line. (Thats very annoying when you are primaried from 4 SOL's and a Bellona is tucked safely on your beam cowering instead of at least being in front or behind you firing at the enemy)

 

I hate the tactic of turning away from the enemy, you are just setting yourself up for being chased down and stern camped/raked

 

I hate the Nelson charge !  Each fleet in NA on average will have players of roughly equal skill across the board. The British charged the enemy fleet at Trafalgar because they had every confidence that the enemy crews were little more than landsmen across 90% of the enemy fleet, with low skills and low morale. Years of sailing blockades and combat around the globe gave the British fleet so much more experience and expectation, this was a fairly unique position to be in on the day.

 

SOL for me form line asap, don't worry which SOL sits where on that line, just form it quick and get into firing position while the enemy dither about.

 

Heavy Frigates, Constitutions atm, form ahead or to the rear of the SOL acting both as supporting fire for the line and in a position to prevent enemy frigates firing down your line to dismast the SOLS

 

Lighter frigates and smaller can form small clusters to work together and try and wolf pack seperated ships or attempt to engage the sails of enemy SOLS as opportunity arises.

 

There is no single way to deploy, as it all is dependant on the enemy activity, what is important is that SOL's are allowed to fire without being friendly blocked, rammed or prevented from manouvring because another ship is too close to it and the SOL would ram a friendly if it tried.  Frigates should be canny, don't stay in the line if a SOL starts ranging on you, you have the speed to change your range or simply reposition yourself to avoid the broadside.

 

Most of all - be patient, often an inexperienced player will suddenly go gung ho and charge, he's the new primary.

[Jack Feathersword]

^^ this guy gets it.

 

The correct tactic depends on the situation at hand. 

 

Sometimes i like leading the dance hitting angles on the front of the line with our whole line before tacking and switching broadsides. This leads to a higher ROF and balancing broadside damage. It also makes it hard the the enemy to focus down one of your ships. 

 

The counter to this is for the front of the line to pull upwind and the SOLS to line fight while the tail/frigates go straight ahead and cut through the line to envelop and cut off the support ships. 

 

In a line fight i will often target out weaker high damage ships like connies or trincs that are in range of a few sols. These ships do much higher damage compared to how much damage they can take. 

[Max Thundercroc]

I use several different tactics in game, however a corking tactic often fails because the rest of the fleet are so used to doing the same thing they fear the unknown and you end up leading, then being isolated and blasted out of the water because the rest of the fleet bottle out.

 

I hate the Nelson charge !  Each fleet in NA on average will have players of roughly equal skill across the board. The British charged the enemy fleet at Trafalgar because they had every confidence that the enemy crews were little more than landsmen across 90% of the enemy fleet, with low skills and low morale. Years of sailing blockades and combat around the globe gave the British fleet so much more experience and expectation, this was a fairly unique position to be in on the day.

Not only this but the spanish and french were so disorganized that their line was spread across nearly 4km (over 2 miles) from lead ship to rear compared to the British that had their formation set before they even spotted the enemy. Also Nelson split his fleet into two lines and cut the french and spanish into three smaller groups which allowed the british troops to support each other and surround the enemy ships cutting them off from help.

[Megiddo]

I was guilty of so many poor decisions this weekend I just shake my head.

 

One fight, we tried to lag a bit, giving the impression of movement (not battle sails, but something less)... to let the other side to slide downwind.   This worked and gave use the weather gauge.  But all our smaller ships got ahead of us and engaged the enemy fleet by themselves.  They were promptly dispatched.   I can understand how newer players get excited and charge in, but a Surprise against a SOL isn't the best of ideas.

 

The other my Vic got ahead of a following Vic and he was isolated and destroyed.   My fault for getting too far ahead.

 

Another was a bums rush... we all just went straight for the enemy (I think our Santi, needed to leave and wanted to get it over with, which is fine, I understand).   Problem was I wasn't able to get any BS's off for much of the match due to the angle.  However, it was actually going fairly well, the enemy was split up and disorganized.  But toward the end I got too close to a sinking Santi and he boarded me!  A massive swing in power.  (I was a complete idiot for letting that happen).

 

A very long story short... I've yet to latch on to winning strategy.

[Kpt Beowulf aka Kpt Ahab]

Yes I would love this! Many games have been lost because 1 or 2 SOLs spawned in the back and all the enemy SOLs spawned together...

true and it´s just annoying but...  this is Alpha/Beta and things like that don´t really matter

 

And every good tactic stands or fails with the quality of the team and it´s just too random now both in knowing how to sail or behave in a ship team and the will to accept "orders" to get organized and fight efficiently...

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

I was guilty of so many poor decisions this weekend I just shake my head.

 

One fight, we tried to lag a bit, giving the impression of movement (not battle sails, but something less)... to let the other side to slide downwind.   This worked and gave use the weather gauge.  But all our smaller ships got ahead of us and engaged the enemy fleet by themselves.  They were promptly dispatched.   I can understand how newer players get excited and charge in, but a Surprise against a SOL isn't the best of ideas.

 

The other my Vic got ahead of a following Vic and he was isolated and destroyed.   My fault for getting too far ahead.

 

Another was a bums rush... we all just went straight for the enemy (I think our Santi, needed to leave and wanted to get it over with, which is fine, I understand).   Problem was I wasn't able to get any BS's off for much of the match due to the angle.  However, it was actually going fairly well, the enemy was split up and disorganized.  But toward the end I got too close to a sinking Santi and he boarded me!  A massive swing in power.  (I was a complete idiot for letting that happen).

 

A very long story short... I've yet to latch on to winning strategy.

The initial setup is really a chess game. It's easy for people to get impatient and rush in (I saw a 74 YOLO right into 20 enemy ships while playing last week while the rest of us were formed up in a group and carefully approaching - naturally he sank quickly, as did the half dozen of our ships that broke formation and ran after him - we lost). A little patience on the approach and you can hold a cohesive fighting force - everyone gets more damage. I suppose this will be a greater issue until there is a penalty for losing your ship (be it in repair costs, or whatever).

[Grim DeGrim]

Like a game of chicken....

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

- frigates have speed

 

 

Usually I read admirals telling us frigate captains to lag behind the line when we really should race up, staying some 800 yards up and forming a hook into the wind and keep the enemy in check and inside a crossfire from front and side.

 

But that is just my point of view.

[marecek05]

- frigates have speed

 

 

Usually I read admirals telling us frigate captains to lag behind the line when we really should race up, staying some 800 yards up and forming a hook into the wind and keep the enemy in check and inside a crossfire from front and side.

 

But that is just my point of view.

 

That requires the frigate captains to know what they are doing, i.e. keeping enough distance to not be overwhelmed by enemy fleet and also staying close enough to support their line when melee breaks out and to possibly get to the stern of some lineships, which is very hard to do all 3 :-)

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

That requires the frigate captains to know what they are doing, i.e. keeping enough distance to not be overwhelmed by enemy fleet and also staying close enough to support their line when melee breaks out and to possibly get to the stern of some lineships, which is very hard to do all 3 :-)

 

It is indeed. Very challenging and very rewarding when done right.

 

Still I rather do it than slug it off a 50-50 chance of attrition on a classic line.

[Magnum]

A very long story short... I've yet to latch on to winning strategy.

 

Sounds like you need to join The Decatur Armada my friend!

[Grim DeGrim]

Sounds like you need to join The Decatur Armada my friend!

The society with the highest concentration of experienced players.

You guys need to share out some of that wealth!

[Reki]

I'd like to have a discussion of the Line of Battle (LoB).

 

First off, I'm no way an expert and judging by my play, not a great captain... but here is what I'd like to be seeing:

1. Ships of the Line (SOL) need to be out front

2. Frigates second

3. All others behind them

 

This is not because the SOL are the best players (sometimes they are), but their ships can give and take the most damage.

Frigates/Snows/Brigs are faster than the SOL's, but can't take the damage SOL's can deliver.

Blocking SOL's will not only cause you to be hit by the enemy, but keep your side from firing.

Here is a video by RAMJB talking about the issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXvd8ZYJp00

 

 

Not (Blue is in a bad position... red is fine)

actually on second screen blue is in good position, red in failposition. Just imagine that few blue little asholes taking their ships away from sols fireline. In this case red will loose. Bad for them taking little ships from fireline is to easy compare to taking those red turtlestyle frigates forward in their group, since this is impossible. And lets talk Ramjb about tactic, when demasting stop be winner way.

[Billy Ruffin]

I think the only time you could accomplish strict naval tactics in this time period is with a set of chosen friends who have a working knowlege of the tactics of the time, and the strict discipline that is expected to be exercised. Generally, I would expect that in most cases the smaller ships will be captained by lesser experienced players so this won't necessarily be the case. This is the difference inbetween fighting for your lives and fighting for fun (and points :-) )

[Grim DeGrim]

Most captains right now are the equivalent of the French sails at the Nile...

[Leviathan]

- frigates have speed

 

 

Usually I read admirals telling us frigate captains to lag behind the line when we really should race up, staying some 800 yards up and forming a hook into the wind and keep the enemy in check and inside a crossfire from front and side.

 

But that is just my point of view.

I actually find myself doing this quite often when I'm using a frigate especially if the line ships are bunched up in the back.

 

The current randomization at the start does make for some interesting jockeying and allows you to gain experience in various situations and formations. It's testing so it's not a big deal right now, but when the chips are on the table i'd prefer the lines to be even or at least represent the formation that the players chose to put themselves in to start. 

[Reki]

I actually find myself doing this quite often when I'm using a frigate especially if the line ships are bunched up in the back.

 

The current randomization at the start does make for some interesting jockeying and allows you to gain experience in various situations and formations. It's testing so it's not a big deal right now, but when the chips are on the table i'd prefer the lines to be even or at least represent the formation that the players chose to put themselves in to start. 

same here. suggested allready to not put victory to the end of formation never. I hope it will be done.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

I think the only time you could accomplish strict naval tactics in this time period is with a set of chosen friends who have a working knowlege of the tactics of the time, and the strict discipline that is expected to be exercised. Generally, I would expect that in most cases the smaller ships will be captained by lesser experienced players so this won't necessarily be the case. This is the difference inbetween fighting for your lives and fighting for fun (and points :-) )

 

Had a battle where the three Brigs of the enemy ( english ) were more worth than a SOL of ours. They were truly amazing.

 

Nowadays I target the support ships and I rather leave the big game to the end when they are without any support.

[Magnum]

The society with the highest concentration of experienced players.

You guys need to share out some of that wealth!

 

We are constantly sharing with each other -- we also "share" by example with others - "if" they care to pay attention?

[Naxos]

Must say that 90% of the larger battles the team wins which sticks together all the time.

 

Im sure many players do also notice right from the start if their team will stick together or not.

In cooperative teams, a flow of communication starts at the beginning, ideas are exchanged, a common direction is decided, orders are acknowledged, ships dont block each other, the rearguard tries to catch up and the vanguard stays near the big vessels, often offering protection ("ill cover your stern"). Then targets are focussed and the formation or group still is together after the close combat.

 

Everybody got his role in cooperative teams, small and big vessels sail together and are ready to bring sacrifices or to give protection if necessary. Love it when the game is like that.

 

If thats not the case, some ships sail away or chase irrelevant opponents. Or let their first rates die alone. And of course the blame game starts after a while - "I told you we had to do .....!" , "well thanks a lot for...:!" , "great job you...."  and so on

 

Teamplay > Formation

 

Agree/not agree?