Line of Battle Discussion

[Megiddo]

I'd like to have a discussion of the Line of Battle (LoB).

 

First off, I'm no way an expert and judging by my play, not a great captain... but here is what I'd like to be seeing:

1. Ships of the Line (SOL) need to be out front

2. Frigates second

3. All others behind them

 

This is not because the SOL are the best players (sometimes they are), but their ships can give and take the most damage.

Frigates/Snows/Brigs are faster than the SOL's, but can't take the damage SOL's can deliver.

Blocking SOL's will not only cause you to be hit by the enemy, but keep your side from firing.

Here is a video by RAMJB talking about the issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXvd8ZYJp00

 

 

Not (Blue is in a bad position... red is fine)

[Flip]

Little boats can be useful in curling the enemy line. They can't withstand the direct fire of lineships so they shouldn't get caught in the arcs but line ships should also not focus them. It's almost like a game of cat and mouse except each team has a mouse and a cat. The small ships should try to get the advantage over the enemy small ships and then put pressure on the enemy line ships through swarming them or taking raking shots. 

 

Let the big boys tank the damage.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

To be totally clear, the Blue ships are wrong in the second image, but only in that the little guys are blocking the SOLs.  I agree with Flip in that there are times the little boats can cut a bigger boat from the herd, which can be valuable.

 

ETA: Two SOLs are also overlapped and should not be in the second image.  

[Megiddo]

Totally agree... the little guys can cause a SOL to be distracted and break away from the LOB... seen it! 

 

Even causing the frigates to get distracted.

 

Smaller ships need to keep an eye on the SOL's so that their sterns are not camped.   Best way to make friends is to drive away a Surprise camping a SOL's stern.  (Good way to get damage points too)

[Grim DeGrim]

I get the gist, and you are mostly correct. As Henry indicated... It is the stacking of ships in #2 that is erroneous (blocks lines of fire).

I quite prefer to have heavier frigates to the front applying pressure to the nose of the enemy. Left unchecked by other frigates, what can happen is the enemy SOL turns away from the line to engage the frigate and you get the enemy fleet with a convex line... Meaning less effective focus fire. Meanwhile our fleet continues to curl around them pounding away...

It is really up to the fleet commander to gain control and herd the masses...

[Megiddo]

I get the gist, and you are mostly correct. As Henry indicated... It is the stacking of ships in #2 that is erroneous (blocks lines of fire).

I quite prefer to have heavier frigates to the front applying pressure to the nose of the enemy. Left unchecked by other frigates, what can happen is the enemy SOL turns away from the line to engage the frigate and you get the enemy fleet with a convex line... Meaning less effective focus fire. Meanwhile our fleet continues to curl around them pounding away...

It is really up to the fleet commander to gain control and herd the masses...

 

Also true... this kind of drawing being static is tough.   An interactive discussion would be ideal.   (Meeting in the Admiral's Great room aboard the Victory at 06:00 is required!)

 

But up to the commander?  In real life the commanders of small ships knew their places in the LOB and crossing a 1st would get you court martialled... if you lived.  

 

So yeah, I guess my point is to keep out of the way of the SOL, protect their sterns, applying pressure to the enemy advancing units or lagging units.

[DeRuyter]

In a battle between larger fleets of SOL (Trafalgar, Battle of the Saints, Cape St. Vincent, etc) the frigates stayed behind the line to relay signals from the squadrons, tow disabled ships, etc. Smaller ships (Think HMS Pickle) I would expect stayed well clear of the battle line. Not very practical in a NA battle. A 74 should be able to "one shot" to use a gaming term a small frigate. This happened at the Battle of the Nile when a French 40 gun frigate fired on a British 74 and received a full broadside that completed wrecked her in return.

 

Certainly in smaller engagements with a mixture of ships you have a different tactical situation. Frigates could pursue and harass the enemy SOL allowing the friendly SOL to catch up and engage, etc.

[Crankey]

Early in a battle I request none SOL not to block SOL arcs of fire, or put themselves in ramming harms way from friendlies.

 

Depending on positioning you can direct smaller vessels ahead or to the rear of the fleet to engage enemy smaller vessels or split them.

 

If you have few SOL then larger Frigs may be invited to beef up your line fight. by the time you are in a surprise you should know about blocking line of fire etc unless you've camped PVE battles your entire career.

 

Now you are sorted you take decisions based on wind, enemy fleet intentions and fight your fight. communication from the lineships is desired, but in essence your groups of ships should act according to their weight and enemy action.

[Jeheil]

I agree it is key to not block the Line of Fire from the big boys, it is also imperative the frigates as the battle starts, prior to the brawl do NOT get themselves snotted by a ranged SOL broadside....I made the mistake of pushing to far up the line and took a full ranged broadside from the last SOL in the enemies line, I basically lost my entire startboard armour and took both pump and rudder damage....I was limited to sniping for the rest of the game.

 

I think in NA (forget historical to some extent), where there are SOL and frigates then the best the frigates can do is :

1) Protect their SOL's bottom

2) Do follow up broadsides, it is very effective to sail behind a SOL and apply a second broadside to their target (basically kicking a man when he is down)

3) Stern camp the SOL's where possible

 

However, irrespective of position, the key is to focus fire an enemy down. A ship on 70% damage, still has the capability to dish out alot of pain to your side. FINISH THEM. There is no dishonour in this, the sooner you take an opponents ship out the quicker your team becomes the top dog. So to some extent, given even SOL's, the key element of the frigates is to put 3 or 4 ships worth of cannons on 1 opponents, sink them and repeat, this will quickly snowball the encounter in your favour.

 

If you hit with every volley...but it is on 7 different ships...you are NOT contributing the same as putting 7 volleys on one or two ships.

 

The choice is do you let the SOL's slug it out and try and focus their frigates down, or do you try to quickly burn their SOL....and I suspect this is situational depending on where each line ends up when the 'entanglement' phase begins.

 

In the end...good team communication is > than almost any individual action. I would rather face 100 sheep led by a lion, than 100 lions led by a sheep !!

[Munro]

The situation that the blue fleet in the second picture is in happens because in chat you will always hear "Target xxx" or "All focus xxx", where 'xxx' is the largest enemy ship and therefore probably the lead ship in the enemy line, and "Light ships load chain and help with xxx."

 

A lot of light ship Captains are new, a lot of Captains (new and not so new) don't understand the nuances of naval strategy for the period, some don't even understand the basics. They don't always know that calling a target doesn't mean you point your cannons at it to the exclusion of all other considerations. When the only orders given are those above, you are going to get a mess. You are going to get players getting tunnel vision and not paying attention to larger ships' firing solutions. You're going to get some larger ships in the line turning slightly to bring guns to bear on the designated target and that will put them on a tangent and the ships behind will start to move up if they're not paying attention or if they just don't get it.

 

To avoid the mess that is the blue fleet in the second picture, make sure all ships know to prioritize form and positioning over target (and later make sure all ships know when to release formation if the mid-game evolves that way). Better yet, send the fore-and-aft rigged ships across to get in windward and behind the enemy formation where they can cause more nuisance and better account for themselves. New players will learn more in harassing roles than in the line.

[DanielCoffey]

Thank you for taking the time to put this together. I particularly like Munro's comment about sending fore-and-aft rigged ships being used in harassing roles - finishing off wounded stragglers, hastening sinking enemies' demise and so on.

[Petrov]

One issue we see in the game in its current state are the spawn location.  If the spawns would reflect what OP is saying, I think players would tend to play it that way.

[Robert Danforth]

Definitely agree, Petrov. Would be nice if spawns were done with heaviest rates up front and work their way back. Otherwise we spend half the game getting in line (or arguing with people), it devolves, and just becomes a big melee.

[Megiddo]

The situation that the blue fleet in the second picture is in happens because in chat you will always hear "Target xxx" or "All focus xxx", where 'xxx' is the largest enemy ship and therefore probably the lead ship in the enemy line, and "Light ships load chain and help with xxx."

 

 

Munro, makes a very good point.. the nature of the game almost dictates this kind-of-thing.   I want to play!   I want to shoot!   I was told to hit Target XYZ, so I'm doing all I can to do that.

 

Believe me your time will come, another 5-10 minutes and the SOL are engaged, there is lots to do.   And lots of damage to be gained

[Grim DeGrim]

There will be an evolution of the Captains in the game as it matures.  These same conversations, from my own personally experience, are repeats from those had in PoTBS over a 5 year play period.  That makes them no less important here... In fact Megiddo, that you posed the very question is a sign that some Captains newer to the genre are already thinking through the process so-as to bring the game to the next level. 

 

And I think that is great.

[Meraun]

i dont think the small ships shoud stay behind. they are much mor usfull in other ways, like kiting the rear of enemy's or cover rear of friendlys.

[Saulz]

Definitely agree, Petrov. Would be nice if spawns were done with heaviest rates up front and work their way back. Otherwise we spend half the game getting in line (or arguing with people), it devolves, and just becomes a big melee.

 

Yes I would love this! Many games have been lost because 1 or 2 SOLs spawned in the back and all the enemy SOLs spawned together...

[Naxos]

This thread is a nice place to exchange ideas. Therefore I would like to ask for further opinions of the player base for the following:

 

 

Assuming two normal starting lines. Each containing 4 first rates, 1 Bellona and 7 frigs (and other smaller vessels).

 

 

The blue line is formed in the classical way, largest ships at front, the Bellona behind and the smaller vessels acting as a rearguard.

 

The red line however is quite mixed – their vanguard consists out of smaller vessels, heavies in the middle, but they also have a rearguard.

 

 

 

(hope you can see the picture clear enough)

 

I noticed that in many of the larger battles to be the first ship in the line is often a death sentence.  It´s custom to focus fire on it, especially when it’s a Victory, Santi or Bellona. These are dangerous and easy to hit ships.

 

Now how about a group of smaller ships acting as a distraction for the enemy and at the same time able to slow down the enemies´  first rates (chain etc.) and being able to sink the enemies first ship quicker/force it to break formation?

[The idea came a few days ago when my first rate got crippled in seconds in a 25vs25 battle so I thought about tactics to prevent this happening again]

 

Apart from the slightly more difficult coordination (leader is not at the front), do you think that such a line up makes sense for our larger naval action battles?

 

 

 

[marecek05]

This thread is a nice place to exchange ideas. Therefore I would like to ask for further opinions of the player base for the following:

 

 

Assuming two normal starting lines. Each containing 4 first rates, 1 Bellona and 7 frigs (and other smaller vessels).

 

 

The blue line is formed in the classical way, largest ships at front, the Bellona behind and the smaller vessels acting as a rearguard.

 

The red line however is quite mixed – their vanguard consists out of smaller vessels, heavies in the middle, but they also have a rearguard.

 

 

Line Tactics alternative.jpg

 

(hope you can see the picture clear enough)

 

I noticed that in many of the larger battles to be the first ship in the line is often a death sentence.  It´s custom to focus fire on it, especially when it’s a Victory, Santi or Bellona. These are dangerous and easy to hit ships.

 

Now how about a group of smaller ships acting as a distraction for the enemy and at the same time able to slow down the enemies´  first rates (chain etc.) and being able to sink the enemies first ship quicker/force it to break formation?

[The idea came a few days ago when my first rate got crippled in seconds in a 25vs25 battle so I thought about tactics to prevent this happening again]

 

Apart from the slightly more difficult coordination (leader is not at the front), do you think that such a line up makes sense for our larger naval action battles?

 

In my opinion, the red line has advantages provided the (small vanguard fleet is very good).

I don't think that they would be considered enough of a threat for SOLs to fire at them, they would still be exchanging fire with red SOLs. However they exploit the situation by closing in downwind and bow camping the enemy line (thus herding the enemy line ships into a postion favourable to the red). This could put them into a position that blue ships are under fire of lineships, however cannot retaliate. If the blue squadron however decides to cut straight through the red line, the red ships will have to be very coordinated to tack together or do other neccessary manouvers to retain their cohesion, while light ships in van would have to be very careful to not get separated..

 

http://imgur.com/oIKPQ5t

 

However assuming normal skill and coordination, you will have small ships that are far away from their primary targets and from sterns of SOLS, while risking that they will be split up by enemy SOLs from rest of the fleet, while having a weaker rear that can be broken by Blue lighter ships...

[Megiddo]

Now how about a group of smaller ships acting as a distraction for the enemy and at the same time able to slow down the enemies´  first rates (chain etc.) and being able to sink the enemies first ship quicker/force it to break formation?

[The idea came a few days ago when my first rate got crippled in seconds in a 25vs25 battle so I thought about tactics to prevent this happening again]

 

Apart from the slightly more difficult coordination (leader is not at the front), do you think that such a line up makes sense for our larger naval action battles?

 

I like the idea of a fast distraction force... and I've seen it.   It can be very distracting (for frigates, SOLs keep their attention pretty well on the other SOL's) when a fast group works together and attacks in formation.   If they come in front people tend to go off by themselves and can be quickly dispatched if they're not careful, but what's worse... their firepower is not brought to bare on the largest SOL.

 

Your line of battle is classic (as I understand).

[Crankey]

The heaviest SOL is better placed at the centre of your SOL line of battle.

 

It dictates primary target and ships fore and aft of him can also fire at the primary, ships further down or ahead of the line may have to work on adjacent targets if they cannot bring primary target to bear and still maintain the fighting line.

[DeRuyter]

The heaviest SOL is better placed at the centre of your SOL line of battle.

 

It dictates primary target and ships fore and aft of him can also fire at the primary, ships further down or ahead of the line may have to work on adjacent targets if they cannot bring primary target to bear and still maintain the fighting line.

+1

 

Historically this was also done for command and control. The 1st rates usually had the squadron and fleet admirals and so were placed in the center of the line to facilitate signaling. More ships would be in sight of the flagship that way and the flagship would be protected (from stern campers to use a game term). There are exceptions of course, Trafalgar being the prime example.

[Max Thundercroc]

So historically line tactics were used because the situation deemed it the most effective. The situation being communication, done by flags and some other means, also because the bigger SoLs took to long and to much distance to turn so the more broadsides you lined up back to back the more effective. *rough dirty quick overview* Now neither of these conditions apply to us. We have instant text comms and our ships are faster and more agile then real life counterparts, so forming lines is not our best tactic usually. Although without fail in the beginning of every game I get told about getting in line. There where also many other tactics used based on fleet makeup, weather conditions, and terrain (inlets, vicinity to ports, low keel areas, etc). Sorry if this seems like a rant but I think the community should explore and recognize that there are non traditional tactics that we can applyly effectively. And ok I hear the "yea but history" people out there, but non-traditional tactics won many battles in the past. Case study: the baltimore schooner (aka lynx) had huge success in the war of 1812 against bigger British ships because of the captain's deviation from traditional tactics and the British captain's not being able to adapt. Not saying line tactics have no place here but also stop harassing people because "OMG this isn't a proper line". Sorry I'm done now.

On a happier note (spoiler alert: gloating) I sank a constitution in my trincomalee last night and scored over 14k in damage in one game. Had to tell someone cause my wife didn't care.

[Crankey]

You are correct our game moves ships faster and starts them nearer than our historical counterparts would manouvre from.

 

However the line still works, you have maximum number of guns facing your opponent and you should be "All on one" like so many other games to remove an opponent as quickly as possible.

 

Imho the Nelson charge isn't always the best tactic, and had the fleets been in reverse at Trafalgar the quality of the British fleets sailing qualities to maintain formation and its reload speeds would have crushed the combined Spanish-French fleet on its approach.

 

As commented elsewhere, a nearly dead player who can still fire his guns is still a fully functioning battery of guns.

 

Atm we seem to always run at maximum speed and have exceptionally fast acceleration. I would welcome speeds to be dependant on ship condition as well as type of ship, type of mast configuration and state of sea and strength of wind. Oh boy would that make for some interesting battles. moving a SOL in light airs is going to be tough but a schooner or brig would have good steerage.

[Prater]

In my opinion the line is the most effective formation.  The fleet that lines up and works together and stays together wins.  The opposite loses.  Yesterday I was in an ST with several constitutions, trincs, and all the way down.  Enemy force had a victory, bellona and just about everything on down.  My team stuck on me and we won with only losing a couple brigs and one of our Constitutions or Trincs.  Enemy lost the entire fleet.  I didn't use a single repair.

 

In my opinion the line allows for the greatest teamwork and organization.