Seasonal Update: Treacherous Waters - Preliminary information

[admin]

13 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

Sorry, just lol...you define now your own "realism" !

So you seriously want to tell me that in a sailing race when 2 boats are sailing in the same spot on open ocean, lets say for our gaming purposes inside a 1 km radius, have 2 totally different wind speeds ???

Yes. Ask any professional sailing racer. 
Speed in the same spot - 1 meter away will not be different. Unless he is in the wind shadow. But 1-2km away speed can be very different. For identical racing boats. Just because of wind condition and wave condition.

So not sure where are you leading - Its not getting removed just because you do not like it.  We gave it 3 years to think about. 

NA map is condensed.
Jamaica is 150 miles and realistically it is totally possible to have stronger winds on one side of Jamaica. (5 minutes away in game time)
 

[Sir Max Magic]

1 minute ago, admin said:

Yes. Ask any professional sailing racer. 
Speed in the same spot - 1 m away will not be different. Unless he is in the wind shadow. But 1-2km away speed can be very different. For identical racing boats. Just because of wind condition and wave condition. 

Okay, lets just assume that this is right...but for what reasons have we then different fittings in NA ?

For what reason, should we think about wood composition, about mods...when everything we need to catch another player is the right wind boost at the right time ?

 

Everything was well balanced and people could calculate risk vs reward...now its all gone

[Jack Jones]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Your own reading comprehension here is failing you. My point, if you go back and read more carefully, is that if you limit tagging to people without speed boosts then it's giving people with speed boosts an unfair advantage.

No. 

I did not write that.

🙄

[WilsonMG]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

For MG and its community, I mean, clearly for as long as you said you've been around, you clearly haven't contributed much to the community based on your post count @WilsonMG. Why is that?

Some of us are busy professionals, with many areas of responsibility in our daily lives that require proper time management, and we can't waste our entire day arguing with strangers on the internet.  I only come here when there's something important that needs to be addressed, like losing an entire segment of an online community practically overnight, due to poorly implemented game mechanics...

[admin]

2 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

Okay, lets just assume that this is right...but for what reasons have we then different fittings in NA ?

For what reason, should we think about wood composition, about mods...when everything we need to catch another player is the right wind boost at the right time ?

 

Everything was well balanced and people could calculate risk vs reward...now its all gone

Risk vs reward is the same. Its just feels very new. 
Totally understand all reaction but we learnt to ignore initial outrage (you probably remember posts where people were OUTRAGED by 10 doubloon teleport fee saying it will kill the game)

[Conte D. Catellani]

28 minutes ago, admin said:

We plan to remove speed indicators some once we add the skill knot log (if this happens - not guaranteed). Removing indicators will bring peace of mind. 
In addition to that we will add barometer that will help predict wind change and wind strengh (changing speeds between classes in real time)
Current wind gusts will lock this all together. 

+ We no longer tolerate time wasting for hours. 

That's cool.. Is possible also to have tool or skill to misure the deep of the water? And if is sand or rocks? In the second case, rock, could be cool to have hull damage or leak.. This also work on afk/alt Player that could lost the ship or also all the ships. Like in a storm, but also on quiet weather, a big wave.. You have to follow a tight path to evade it or you could lost the ship.. Just my 2 cent.. 

[ZWAJO]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Up until the most recent patch it literally is not an oversimplification. With a few alts you can pull down a few million and many thousands of doubs doing nothing other than 10 minutes of sailing, and then once every few days a 45 minute AFK sail, dropping off all your passengers and collecting the rewards.  If this isn't passive money accrual it's pretty damn close.

Did you figure that mechanic out?  It's not rocket science... 

Have the new mechanics changed this? Not really, it's cut the rate of that accrual down and made it yet more efficient to do rage boarding kill missions for doubs, but these are the efficiencies and meta-mechanics I'm talking about exploring.

Ask yourself why people don't go out and do PvP and have fun now?  They don't need to worry about losing ships, hell you can go cap yourself a dock load of AI 1st rates and spend all day in the PvP zone... for literally the cost of what, a few minutes for each ship in a kill mission? Do you really need free reals and doubloons to justify doing this?

And if you want to streamline the experience even further, why even have an OW, semi-player-driven economy at all then?  Why even have crafting?  Where you draw the line is really a matter of preference, but if you value something about the sandbox player experience then you should be all for a working, multi-activity-driven economy. And all this said, I'm not a fanboy here... anyone who knows me knows I've been hypercritical at times of the development decisions that have been made, and am not a supporter of the current economy/crafting system as it intersects with the game world. 

But blowing it up with no-risk passenger and cargo missions was always a crutch and it was high time it was replaced by something that required more active participation in the game world.

Wraith you have exactly zero clue what your talking about because you speak from the safety of the largest nation in game currently.... sure YOU can go out with 15alts and make godly money in 10 mins whilst watching videos on your other screen...  the rest of us didn't and still do not have that luxury.  And admins fix for the elite being TOO rich.. was to shoot the poor...  because now new players and small nations have little to no hope of sailing trade goods anywhere that will bring profit without getting smashed by the "pvp'rs"

[Sir Max Magic]

28 minutes ago, admin said:

Totally understand all reaction but we learnt to ignore initial outrage (you probably remember posts where people were OUTRAGED by 10 doubloon teleport fee saying it will kill the game)

Yep, thats a point i can wholeheartly agree with you 👍

 

...but in this case it is different because most people criticizing the implementation of winds

1. were some of your biggest defenders in the past

2. give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback

3. remembering you about the principles you gave yourself for the game

4. calling out all kinds of possible negative consequences of the current implementation in terms of gameplay AND realism

5. made so many suggestions for better implementation without all those negative implications on the gameplay

 

Its NOT that we arent used to it, it feels just completly wrong ! And it bothers us that you cant see all the negative effects

 

The most easily understandable simplification of our critics can be boiled down to one point:

A Victory should NEVER be able to catch a fast Frigate (or even smaller)...under no circumstances !

 

Pls think about it again  

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Sir Max Magic

[Koltes]

28 minutes ago, admin said:

We already said it is totally realistic, just a bit exaggerated (because ow speed even basic ones exceed 100 and ow travel is abstract - everyone know it).
Its a known fact that two identical boats can have different wind speeds in the same area, especially on the borders between high/low pressure zones. In fact a ship can have 0 wind at all and another ship 1 mile away can give 2 knots.  Only in tradewinds the wind pressure is somewhat uniform and even then there are lower and higher pressure zones.

Yes, it is possible but the pockets of air pressure difference is area dependents. This means that you CAN be faster, but only in certain areas of the pressure pockets - specifically on the border. This means that if one ship travels inside the pressure pocket and the other ship travels on the outside of it they will have SLIGHTLY different apparent wind force that could translate into both a drag or a lift and depending on your POS both could be good or bad. The main issue is this: when racing In real life both vessels may correct their course and if one is loosing speed it may adjust its course and enter the pressure channel (generally caused by variation of temperatures) at ANY point of time and get the same lift. I one ship is using it, then the other can too. In the current mechanic there are no pressure pockets. Its an artificial point on the map that gives a speed boost that is available only there and then.

If you want it to be realistic then after tagging and entering a battle why do we not have the same speed boost. Yes we stopped and fought, but we fought in the SAME area where we sailed at the higher speed just minutes ago.

Bottom line point is that gasp winds and pressure pockets are areas and if anyone enters that area he may get speed boost WHILE in that area. And today the ship that is being chased cannot do that

 

 

[admin]

11 minutes ago, ZWAJO said:

Wraith you have exactly zero clue what your talking about because you speak from the safety of the largest nation in game currently.... sure YOU can go out with 15alts and make godly money in 10 mins whilst watching videos on your other screen...  the rest of us didn't and still do not have that luxury.  And admins fix for the elite being TOO rich.. was to shoot the poor...  because now new players and small nations have little to no hope of sailing trade goods anywhere that will bring profit without getting smashed by the "pvp'rs"

You should check mission rewards again. But its the best i can do.

[Sir Max Magic]

5 minutes ago, koltes said:

 

Thank you so much for your detailed explanation as someone with 20 years of Real Life sailing experience when most of us others are armchair sailors at best  

@adminpls read and evaluate  

[ZWAJO]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

You should check mission rewards again. But its the best i can do.

It was never about the missions so much as it was about the trade goods system... currently lets say your a pirate, to make money you've got to leave mort town in an large trade ship and sail half way across the map to turn a profit... the odds of you clearing the Inagua zone are almost zero... let alone making it to say new orleans.  and if your polish don't even bother.  All I want is a trade system that works off of say things like iron,coal,wood etc and have ports buy and sell them at varying prices... doesn't have to be huge difference but it allows localized trading in smaller ships for newer players and less time intensive trading for casuals.

[Sir Max Magic]

17 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

 

The most easily understandable simplification of our critics can be boiled down to one point:

A Victory should NEVER be able to catch a fast Frigate (or even smaller)...under no circumstances !

 

 

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

And it still won't if you're not AFK, because after that defensive tag (you did defensive tag right, because you weren't AFK, right?) you'll be well outside effective chain or demasting distance, you'll sail off, escape battle, and then your natural speed advantage gets you to the nearest wind boost first and boom, you're gone.

Again @Wraith, you dont understand or do not want to understand because i know you are a very smart Guy  

I am NOT speaking about whats happening in the battle instance, so your defensive tag doesnt matter...i am speaking about that a Victory should never be able to TAG a fast Frigate sailing on a parallel course at all

It doesnt matter what will happen in the following battle instance...this battle should never ever happen, period

[Obi-Heed Kenobi]

1 minute ago, ZWAJO said:

It was never about the missions so much as it was about the trade goods system... currently lets say your a pirate, to make money you've got to leave mort town in an large trade ship and sail half way across the map to turn a profit... the odds of you clearing the Inagua zone are almost zero... let alone making it to say new orleans.  and if your polish don't even bother.  All I want is a trade system that works off of say things like iron,coal,wood etc and have ports buy and sell them at varying prices... doesn't have to be huge difference but it allows localized trading in smaller ships for newer players and less time intensive trading for casuals.

But isn't that: 1) the inherent risk of being a pirate; and 2) the inherent risk of trading?

[ZWAJO]

1 minute ago, Obi-Heed Kenobi said:

But isn't that: 1) the inherent risk of being a pirate; and 2) the inherent risk of trading?

yes and the risk is still there, but there needs to be a scale to the risk low med high.. not just high... that is how good game mechanics work..  not only that but as I have said before, I know I am one voice screaming in the wind.. but when you win your war against the filthy carebears and they all leave you'll find the auction houses quite empty and the seas quite empty to... open world pvp games NEED casuals (carebears) to thrive, they are the cattle the pvp'rs prey upon... you remove them you kill the game.

[ZWAJO]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Why not create a market for those items then... place buy contracts in production ports and sell contracts in non-production, ship building ports.. or craft repairs and sell them in PvP zone-adjacent ports, etc. etc.

These types of activities are hugely lucrative you just have to use the tools at your disposal.

because that is restricted to players with enough reals and doubloons to start that... there has to be a starting point for new players and casuals... 

[ZWAJO]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

🙄

Come on... don't make me whip out the spreadsheet and calculate exactly how few hours it would take someone to set up a coal, iron, and oak forest to produce repairs, cannons, or something along those lines.  Literally, it would take a few hours running cargo runs, one lucky bottle or shipwreck chest snag, or simply just selling off a naval clock or fancy mod/book for startup cash, etc.

I don't expect new players to know all of that on their own... admittedly the learning curve is a cliff wall. But surely that's why people find helpful clans and other players in their nation to get them off the ground.. right?  This is a multiplayer game after all... 

 

yep I got tired of hearing that in EvE too... rather than admitting the game lacked anything to draw in new players and retain them in fact it actively drives them off with needlessly difficult systems, we hide behind the "its a MMO find a group" troup….  sure ok...  except a quick looksy at steam charts shows us... hmm that isn't workin mate.  So rather than make excuses and hide behind the "I did it so can they" mentality... maybe just maybe we could find way to make the game more approachable and actually draw in new player yes?

[Snoopy]

48 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

[..]The most easily understandable simplification of our critics can be boiled down to one point:
A Victory should NEVER be able to catch a fast Frigate (or even smaller)...under no circumstances ![..]

In RL this could potentially be a thing, there are instances of heavier, stronger ships catching smaller vessels with the right wind conditions (74 gunner running down a Frigate).
Perhaps the new wind buff is only a very crude representation of this, hull speed will favor the longer (larger) vessel and with enough wind it might just catch up.

[Koltes]

31 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

The most easily understandable simplification of our critics can be boiled down to one point:

A Victory should NEVER be able to catch a fast Frigate (or even smaller)...under no circumstances !

I think there more issues than that actually.

Issue #1. low/high pressure difference should give an edge to same or similar speed vessels, but as you said in no way could push a square rigger to catch fore-to-aft vessel on tight reach. In other words a Vic should NEVER be catching anything unless it has some diesel engines installed. No wind or pressure difference between two vessels that travel in a nearby location would create such magic;

Issue #2. Both vessels must have same ability to enter or exit low/high pressure areas at any point which means that the ship that is being chased should be able to adjust its course and enter the area where it can also receive better lift. Currently its not possible;

Issue #3. The current mechanic is an attempt to address two separate issues. 1) to reduce travel time; 2) to make sailing with a extra twist to give temporary edge and I dont think that both can be married up like that.


To cut travel time the speed boost must be dramatic as it is now and is very sufficient.
But for PVP purpose the speed difference is way too high.

To address cutting down speed travel time we dont need to go with any realism at all. We already have different speed in OW and battle instances that have no realistic explanation. They are there to make game playable. With the same principle we can simply have vast empty areas having higher speed than areas near land. It should be very gradual increase (not sudden). Issue sorted.

I like the idea of low/high pressure zones, but I think this should be a hidden areas in the OW which sailors may use when they are entering them. Speed boost should be maybe 10% at max +/-, Then there can be a barometer to give hints of the nearby pressure pockets.
Pressure pockets may change around a bit, but should generally be in similar location.
So those to bothered with the barometer can have slight speed boost even near land and those who didnt may still adjust later.

I think doing it that way will marry everything up and make people more happier in general

[Obi-Heed Kenobi]

12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

...tobacco baron activities....

I had forgotten this! That was great. What was it - tobacco was used for medkits or something, and was both in high demand and also fairly difficult to process so not everyone wanted to do it? Something like that.

Anyway, that was a real economy, and it's something missing from the game now - and something that would add a great dynamic to have back.

 

[Koltes]

43 minutes ago, Snoopy said:

In RL this could potentially be a thing, there are instances of heavier, stronger ships catching smaller vessels with the right wind conditions (74 gunner running down a Frigate).
Perhaps the new wind buff is only a very crude representation of this, hull speed will favor the longer (larger) vessel and with enough wind it might just catch up.

Sorry man, I think your are making this up lol.
Yes it COULD be possible that heavier ships catching up with faster frigates, but ONLY due to being on better wind or other factors like if Frigate spent much time on voyage and have not done the careening to remove biofouling organisms growth on the hull, or had damaged sails or a drunk captain lol.
But definitely not because the heavy Line Ship somehow had different wind approaching the Frigate from parallel reality. That is a fantasy

Edited October 24, 2019 by koltes

[van Veen]

I like the patch overall.

But the speed boosts are a total desaster. The idea of regional wind differences is ok, but implementation turns it into a pile of crap. It should not be timer bound, but region bound. So that everyone in the same region can use the same "wind". Right now you can sail for x minutes with increased speed into regions far away from any wind boost zone. This is game breaking bullshit. 

Come on, devs. Timers and map/ow icons as trigger are a bad idea. Use map regions (zones) instead as a trigger. You got zones and all that in your code. Just use that instead. 

[Snoopy]

Just now, koltes said:

But definitely not because the heavy Line Ship somehow had different wind approaching the Frigate. That is fantasy

What the micro wind conditions were for each ship is hard to say, they were probably roughly the same or rather evened out over the long periods these chases often lasted.
If you have a longer hull you will go faster so its not insane to imagine a large ship catching a smaller one when the wind is strong enough.  Hull state is a factor ofc, but adds another layer of fast/slow so I'm assuming both clean.

[Destraex]

13 minutes ago, koltes said:

Sorry man, I think your are making this up lol.
Yes it COULD be possible that heavier ships catching up with faster frigates, but ONLY due to being on better wind or other factors like if Frigate spent much time on voyage and have not done the careening to remove biofouling organisms growth on the hull, or had damaged sails or a drunk captain lol.
But definitely not because the heavy Line Ship somehow had different wind approaching the Frigate from parallel reality. That is a fantasy

Koltes the example I remember was one of a 74 catching a frigate.

"A spectacular proof of their value came in september 1806 when Sir Samuel Hood in the Centaur led the Rocheford squadron, which included three other large 74s, in the pursuit and capture of four 40 gun frigates; in heavy weather even frigates could be over-hauled by Large Class 74s."

From: Warships of the napoleonic era, design, development and deployment by robert gardiner.

[admin]

14 minutes ago, Destraex said:

Koltes the example I remember was one of a 74 catching a frigate.

"A spectacular proof of their value came in september 1806 when Sir Samuel Hood in the Centaur led the Rocheford squadron, which included three other large 74s, in the pursuit and capture of four 40 gun frigates; in heavy weather even frigates could be over-hauled by Large Class 74s."

From: Warships of the napoleonic era, design, development and deployment by robert gardiner.

You are correct. And that book is not only one that confirms it. Ask any course instructor teaching yacht sailing or giving skipper license.

In the strong wind only a heavy ship can withstand pressure and wave
+ do not forget the hull speed. The longer the hull the higher the speed.

AOS reality is the following

• Very light wind
  • Cutter sails 7 knots
  • Frigate sails 4 knots 
  • Heavy ship of the line barely moves. 1-2 knots or maybe slower due to friction, some builds cannot even start moving and slightly drift.
• Very strong wind almost gale
  • Cutter - cannot sail at all - have to take down all sails = 0 knots large waves make it even more dangerous. Sometimes in sustained gales taking down masts is necessary to just survive. 
  • Frigate - depends on build but can move on courses (couple of sails) - 8 knots 
    • If the hull is shorter it will mostly fight 
  • Heavy ship of the line, can keep almost all sails (except for top gallants) - 12 knots (hull speed)

 

Wind is also uneven and constantly rotates, thats why a skilled sailor can sail faster IN THE SAME BOAT. 
just because he can predict wind better, understand the wave better, and manage sails better (or faster or in time). 

This is our goal. Make choices in sailing as important as aiming and deciding when to use repairs

We do not know if we are going to reach this reality in NA but will definitely reach it in NA2.

We start from wind gusts - captain who look at the signals and map and change course to get a better wind will be rewarded. Captains who just want to sail straight will become easier targets.