Sea Archer Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 The OW Roe is not a success. The 20min timer is the worst thing that has been done for roe so far. I was fighting an ai brig with a prince (br 45:65), after about 10 min an enemy Wasa joined the ai side. After all I killed the brig and escaped, but what is successful in it? Just because two players were in the battle? A battle Wasa vs prince will usually never happen between players. Dear devs, this roe may be a good solution in patrol zone, but not in OW. 2
LucioMaximo Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 Let me paint a picture: Enemy hunting vessel (under 70br) vs Trader's brig x2 or x3, right outside Trux Me: Oh wow a battle.... an enemy right by our port... let's kill him Game: You can't Me: Why? he's right there outside my main port, I can just go and kill him Game: No you can't Me: Why not? HE'S RIGHT THERE, I'm speed capped he can't get away Game: Sorry, that would be unfair to the pirate Me: UNFAIR? HE'S OUTSIDE MY HARBOUR, he's RIGHT THERE! Game: sorry can't let you in, it's full Me: Full? It's the sea, not a bloody nightclub, LET HIM TASTE MY FURY Game: Sorry, you're just going to have to wait for him to invis escape Me: ....... This is fun... This feels fine... 3
Sea Archer Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 5 hours ago, LucioMaximo said: Let me paint a picture: Enemy hunting vessel (under 70br) vs Trader's brig x2 or x3, right outside Trux Me: Oh wow a battle.... an enemy right by our port... let's kill him Game: You can't Me: Why? he's right there outside my main port, I can just go and kill him Game: No you can't Me: Why not? HE'S RIGHT THERE, I'm speed capped he can't get away Game: Sorry, that would be unfair to the pirate Me: UNFAIR? HE'S OUTSIDE MY HARBOUR, he's RIGHT THERE! Game: sorry can't let you in, it's full Me: Full? It's the sea, not a bloody nightclub, LET HIM TASTE MY FURY Game: Sorry, you're just going to have to wait for him to invis escape Me: ....... This is fun... This feels fine... You have two minutes to get there and kill your pirate. That is the risk for that pirate. And that is how it should be. It must be somehow predictable who will be in a battle. My battles with ai traders have jumped that often, that I usually attack tbrigs with a privateer. I have the lower BR, no risk of surprises. Nothing is worse than having the battle nearly finished and a new big opponent appears, which will just kill you. Someone who was not in sight when the battle started. If someone starts a battle right outside your capital zone and no one joins within 2min, he deserves to have his fight without being disturbed. I won't complain if the reinforcement zone would come back, to support the defenders near the capital, but I dislike the current roe.
admin Posted August 23, 2019 Author Posted August 23, 2019 9 hours ago, Anolytic said: Great joke... This ROE should be ONLY in Patrol Zones. Give us 2 min timers back everywhere else in OW: Open 20 min ROE is a great success based on 2 goals The goal was to reduce ganking (have more equal battles in general) The goal was to increase number of pvp battles per player per hour. Both were achieved. We merged the ROE changes before the large patch as they could not wait. Now there will be less abnormally unequal battles in Patrols 8
Robert Lance Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, admin said: Open 20 min ROE is a great success based on 2 goals The goal was to reduce ganking (have more equal battles in general) The goal was to increase number of pvp battles per player per hour. Both were achieved. We merged the ROE changes before the large patch as they could not wait. Now there will be less abnormally unequal battles in Patrols Well a few of my guys in my clan just tried to do the PvP zone in La Mona area. They reported back that each time they attacked AI or even a player. Their battle would be in the open world not in the PvP battle with the circle. The PvP area in La Mona used to be 5th rate class. The PvP area now says no limit. So question is to the devs. Is the PvP zone even working at all now? I believe they were in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rates. One clan member was in a Wasa, by himself. Edited August 23, 2019 by Robert Lance
Sea Archer Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 18 minutes ago, admin said: Open 20 min ROE is a great success based on 2 goals The goal was to reduce ganking (have more equal battles in general) The goal was to increase number of pvp battles per player per hour. Both were achieved. We merged the ROE changes before the large patch as they could not wait. Now there will be less abnormally unequal battles in Patrols I do understand that from the statistics it looks like a success. And when I attack an ai trader with a frigate and on ai side a Wasa joins, you see a pvp battle. Though I would never call that success. It just fun for the Wasa player to have some easy prey waiting for him. It would be a kind of success when the joining player had to stay within certain br limits, so that the br stays within 15% of the enemy's br. 1
Guest Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, admin said: Open 20 min ROE is a great success based on 2 goals The goal was to reduce ganking (have more equal battles in general) The goal was to increase number of pvp battles per player per hour. Both were achieved. We merged the ROE changes before the large patch as they could not wait. Now there will be less abnormally unequal battles in Patrols My god sorry, but you're so biased it hurts. "The goal was to reduce ganking (have more equal battles in general)" what does that help if a player joins in a battle to help 15 mins in and the gankers as you say have the first player literally dead, should we call this a chaingank? how will you stop this to happen, because us players in the OW dont know the situation in battle. Ganking was something taking part in the age of sail (see connie escape) if you want your game to be realistically, its annoying being ganked, but its something that happens and you cant prevent it. Now we have ships sailing from a port 20 mins away and that is a long distance in the ow, meaning the ships would hyperjump to the battle location and join considering 20 mins of sail in battle vs ow is so much different in therms of distance, which is unrealistic. "The goal was to increase number of pvp battles per player per hour." so instead of trying to make your servers highly populated again which would result in more "pvp battles per player per hour", your're preparing for a dead game with up to 20 mins queue time for action, because thats what you're doing with all of it, its already starting to decline in player population and soon we will be down to 400 prime time again. What will you do when that number hits? increase join timer to 30 mins so we can have more "pvp battles per player per hour"? You need to give people reasons not to gank. The game is a HUGE Low risk = High reward game, there is literally no reason to go out solo hunting because 1. You know you will get revenged by 14kn ships of the line and 2. you would most likely never face a battle with equal numbers or ships because all others dont expect it either. My tldr; the RoE is highly exploitable and has huge flaws and false safety for the side with less BR. Ganking is realistic, wasnt the plan that this game should be more or less realistic? You're basing the RoE on the server population, what will happen when the pop drops down to 400. Low risk = High Reward game. We changed to single durabilities in 2017, i thought the change was good for until recently until i found out its a huge wall for players that dont feel like risking their ships which for them they have used alot of time getting. I honestly think that multi dura for ships would be good again and would bring more pvp in the ow, because people wouldnt lose their upgrades which are worth 20 times as much as their ships the first time they sail out and try to pvp, also then the ships would be much more worth then upgrades because of this, and blue ships would be quite cheap on the market Edited August 23, 2019 by Guest
Corona Lisa Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Anolytic said: Not 5 minutes ago I was ganked in a trader just outside a port and a player from another nation joined my side in a ship same size as the attacker, preventing any reinforcements joining my side and talking to each other as friends in all-chat and discussing the fact that players were gathering outside but would not be able to join my side. My loss was immaterial, but the blatant abuse that this ROE actively invites is game-breaking. This ROE should be ONLY in Patrol Zones. Give us 2 min timers back everywhere else in OW: If you got ganked with your proposed 2 min timer noone would have joined and you would have died too. 2 min only timer promotes ganks, why do you want that? Edited August 23, 2019 by Jon Snow lets go
CrustyJohnson Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 I think this patch is a win. Glad to see it and thank you very much. RoE in OW could use tweaks, but I'm glad progress is being made. I see people complaining about being counter-ganked. Such as attacking a Trade brig (45)in a Trinc (270) and having a Wasa (400) jump in...well If I'm not mistaken...BR of 445 vs Trinc BR of 270 would allow Trinc to get reinforced...so I don't see the problem... The only things I would like to see are some sort of change to how tagging in national waters are handled. I feel like players tagging traders in a nation's waters should get the benefit of a national coast guard response, no matter the time limit. The other thing is having Port Bonuses, Upgrades, Skills books affect Battle Rating. It's obvious a full PBonus ship with rare mods, 5 skill books, and Navy guns is easily 150% the Battle Rate as its vanilla counterpart. There has to be a way to sort that out. But I don't want to complain; I appreciate this transparency and that the devs are actively working on this game. It's my absolute favorite and I think it can get to a place where it's balanced, fun, and the server will population grow. 1
Guest Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said: If you got ganked with your proposed 2 min timer noone would have joined and you would have died too. 2 min only timer promotes ganks, why do you want that? they are looking at the problem from the wrong perspective, they need to reduce the advantages of ganking and give people less reasons to gank and encourage solo play, not just making false safety of someone who might join the battle to help in 15 mins, and besides its HUGELY exploitable.
Guest Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, CrustyJohnson said: I think this patch is a win. Glad to see it and thank you very much. RoE in OW could use tweaks, but I'm glad progress is being made. I see people complaining about being counter-ganked. Such as attacking a Trade brig (45)in a Trinc (270) and having a Wasa (400) jump in...well If I'm not mistaken...BR of 445 vs Trinc BR of 270 would allow Trinc to get reinforced...so I don't see the problem... the problem is if the wasa joins at 19:55 into the battle the trinc would never have a chnace to get reinforced
Sea Archer Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 The preparations for a battle start in OW. Tag the opponent from an upwind position, not too close to an enemy's fort and in a save distance to other enemy ship. This is the first part of every naval battle. Then the hot fight in the instance is the final part of it. With the 20min timer, the first part looses much of its importance. For good reason the join timer has been introduced, so that people cannot jump out of a town to help their buddies, after those have been attacked. It has been done to be fair to the attacker, since then only ships, that are in visual range can join. Now the side with the higher br can be jumped by some even higher br. Why shall this be good? Because someone missed to join the battle, but wants to help his buddy? Well, if you want to help your buddies, sail together in a close distance. If some attacker manages to seperate an enemy an attack him in a way no one can join within 2min, he deserves to have the fight without disturbance. If a ganking fleet manages to attack you, it is bad luck, but close to historical reality. 1
Sea Archer Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 31 minutes ago, CrustyJohnson said: I think this patch is a win. Glad to see it and thank you very much. RoE in OW could use tweaks, but I'm glad progress is being made. I see people complaining about being counter-ganked. Such as attacking a Trade brig (45)in a Trinc (270) and having a Wasa (400) jump in...well If I'm not mistaken...BR of 445 vs Trinc BR of 270 would allow Trinc to get reinforced...so I don't see the problem... The only things I would like to see are some sort of change to how tagging in national waters are handled. I feel like players tagging traders in a nation's waters should get the benefit of a national coast guard response, no matter the time limit. The other thing is having Port Bonuses, Upgrades, Skills books affect Battle Rating. It's obvious a full PBonus ship with rare mods, 5 skill books, and Navy guns is easily 150% the Battle Rate as its vanilla counterpart. There has to be a way to sort that out. If the battle starts, you will choose your strategy from the ships inside the battle. So you may choose to fight more risky and take some damage, since you know it will be enough to kill your opponent. You would usually choose a safer strategy, when more ships are involved in the battle. The risky strategy can be deadly when someone joins, but fun if he doesn't. At least after 2min there shouldn't be any surprises coming to battle, to keep it fair. No matter the br ratio.
Raf Van Boom Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 Just don't close battles period. I love surprises personally.
Guest Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, Sea Archer said: The preparations for a battle start in OW. Tag the opponent from an upwind position, not too close to an enemy's fort and in a save distance to other enemy ship. This is the first part of every naval battle. Then the hot fight in the instance is the final part of it. With the 20min timer, the first part looses much of its importance. For good reason the join timer has been introduced, so that people cannot jump out of a town to help their buddies, after those have been attacked. It has been done to be fair to the attacker, since then only ships, that are in visual range can join. Now the side with the higher br can be jumped by some even higher br. Why shall this be good? Because someone missed to join the battle, but wants to help his buddy? Well, if you want to help your buddies, sail together in a close distance. If some attacker manages to seperate an enemy an attack him in a way no one can join within 2min, he deserves to have the fight without disturbance. If a ganking fleet manages to attack you, it is bad luck, but close to historical reality. true, this also takes away the meaning of escort, say you sail with a indiaman fully loaded, get tagged by a ship with just the same speed, you can just call your friends to get into the battle in 18 mins, the friends joins in with 2x fast 3rd rates and then ganks that solo hunter, this also give less reason to solo hunt
admin Posted August 23, 2019 Author Posted August 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Sea Archer said: I do understand that from the statistics it looks like a success. And when I attack an ai trader with a frigate and on ai side a Wasa joins, you see a pvp battle. Though I would never call that success. It just fun for the Wasa player to have some easy prey waiting for him. It would be a kind of success when the joining player had to stay within certain br limits, so that the br stays within 15% of the enemy's br. Normal for the War Server (risk, adrenaline etc). Attacking a light 6th rate in a frigate is a Gank = and Wasa counterbalances it, stumbling upon your battle by actually sailing in the OW creating targets for others. Someone could have caught that Wasa on the way to your battle, but did not. Attack targets stronger than you. Why do you need to gank an AI trader in a frigate? Nautical question... For a friend. by the way Peace server allows attacking AI 6th rates without risk. 6
Guest Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Raf Van Boom said: Just don't close battles period. I love surprises personally. if they want more pvp per player per hour this would be a logical choice, to have no join timer and no BR timer aswell free for all in battle, just the flags determine who you morally should shoot or not
Guest Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, admin said: by the way Peace server allows attacking AI 6th rates without risk. which also the pvp server does. *cough* capital zone *cough* Btw the only reason to attack a higher tier ship is when its a player that dont know how to sail and you're really confident beating him or when there is a good combat mission (where roe dont interfere) Edited August 23, 2019 by Guest
Hethwill, the Red Duke Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 16 minutes ago, admin said: Why do you need to gank an AI trader in a frigate? Nautical question... For a friend. It happened many times, just like shown above when the Opyt ( Empire of Russia ) was intercepted and taken by the HMS Salsette and was later put in service as the HMS Baltic. In game we have TOTAL freedom ( ruled by game design mechanics ). In reality each captain, each vessel, had a mission. In the case of frigates it was very clear. Sail out and intercept all enemy shipping. In the case of Ships-of-the-line it totally depends on the era, if War of Spanish Succession, Seven Years War, or later Coalition Wars versus Napoleon. Despite my disliking for RoE timers ( my all time favourite was the big circle immediate close ) the latest version feels more competent. We have been having escalating fights as much as one sided ones. So hard to quantify but you devs have all data. Suggestion: Change CLERK message to - (captain name) sunk (nation) (ship model) near (port) What I am intrigued is about the Patrol Zone. Do the maximum BR per side in the zone apply ? Say Nassau Patrol zone with 1000 BR or whatever it is, or did the limit got removed ? 6
admin Posted August 23, 2019 Author Posted August 23, 2019 45 minutes ago, Wyy said: the problem is if the wasa joins at 19:55 into the battle the trinc would never have a chnace to get reinforced Thats not a problem..... For a Wasa. Why do you always only think about yourself. Think about the wasa from time to time. He sailed ALONE in the open sea risking his crafted ship and giving the helping hand - reinforcing the weaker side!. Wasa is a HERO here + he is smart. Joining at 19-55 Remember that famous quote from the special forces commander in Vietnam. He was teaching his soldiers to be smart in battle "You want the telegram to just say your son is dead, NOT that your son is dead because he is stupid" 3
admin Posted August 23, 2019 Author Posted August 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, Hethwill said: It happened many times, just like shown above when the Opyt ( Empire of Russia ) was intercepted and taken by the HMS Salsette and was later put in service as the HMS Baltic. In game we have TOTAL freedom ( ruled by game design mechanics ). In reality each captain, each vessel, had a mission. In the case of frigates it was very clear. Sail out and intercept all enemy shipping. yes. But we also allow weaker side to get help. Because sometimes they need it. And its a win win You still attack anyone you want AND you can help others. Its a perfect feature. You can sink others and at the same time help others, showing the duality of man 4
RKY Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Hethwill said: name) sunk (nation) (ship model) near (port) What I am intrigued is about the Patrol Zone. Do the maximum BR per side in the zone apply ? Say Nassau Patrol zone with 1000 BR or whatever it is, or did the limit got removed ? Limit is still here and overrule OW reinforcement. so max 1k v 1k 1
Hethwill, the Red Duke Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, admin said: yes. But we also allow weaker side to get help. Because sometimes they need it. And its a win win You still attack anyone you want AND you can help others. Players need to sail out to be able to do that. And what the majority of players wants is an assurance of "victory" every time they sail out. They don't want to be HERO. They want to WIN every time. I know you guys can't solve that. Just venting a bit. I still stand by my "patch10" trade hunt. The reward for intercepting a trader should be the cargo value, not medals. Think about that. 1
admin Posted August 23, 2019 Author Posted August 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Hethwill said: I still stand by my "patch10" trade hunt. The reward for intercepting a trader should be the cargo value, not medals. Think about that. patch10?
Baptiste Gallouédec Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 22 hours ago, admin said: After 2 mins battle will still be open but only for weaker side - lower BR- with possibility of alternating the weaker side. Does that mean if an Endymion tag a tbrig, then à Bucc join to help the tbrig after 15mn, now the endy side is open until the end of the 20mn? I ve never observed that so I ask if that s how it should work. Other than that, maybe It will help reviving the patrol zones, now revive the RvR I will not Even say « please » as if you don t, the war server is dead and that without a single interesting war since release, and pretty much everyone could predict the current situation when you announced the release.
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