Lady Athena Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Sooo... I have a question, may be a stupid one, but I see many people on here are avid well learned individuals in the knowledge of ships and the time frame of this game. I had a question.... How DID ships sail against the wind? I've never been on a sail boat myself, and while I've learned about the ships in school, yada yada yada, It's never been fully explained exactly how you can go against the wind. I attempted to figure it out by looking at a map of "Air currents", I saw what I remember from school, mostly big circling loops between the continents (which also reflects the water currents), But for instance.. Between America and England, the air currents are traveling West to East, so how did the ships go from England to America's, against the wind?
DanielCoffey Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Ramjb has some videos on YouTube which explain how the ships in the game behave given differing wind directions. Look at his video "Naval Action : Rigging and wind direction (polars)" and also "Naval Action : How to use Manual Sails". I have found them useful while we wait for the pre-orders to reopen.
ObiQuiet Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Although the general weather flow is west to east, the air doesn't move straight -- there are circular patterns around high and low pressures zones. The ships would be able to zig zag north and south across the Atlantic as they moved from one circular flow to another, and as wind currents shifted as air masses and storms passed.
poosd Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 First off welcome Lady Athena, It appears that whatever our thoughts are on women in Naval Action...you are here, and again welcome. I am not that "well learned individual" you speak of, but as one new bee to another, let me give you some leads. Tacking = a ship sailing into the wind as closely as it can without being caught "in irons". There is a lot of information on these forms that will fill in much for you. Do a search on "Tacking". The big picture question of sailing ships sailing all the seas of the world deals with currents and winds. Early navigators learned and mapped the predominate wind directions as they sailed into new areas. Same for currents. Those big circling loops between the continents that you saw on your maps are showing the predominate wind currents and in some cases ocean currents which can help a ship reach its desired destination. A very brief discussion. There is a lot to learn here. Jump in, the waters fine! poosd
Mirones Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 tacking is crossing through the wind what you said would be close hauled.
Tom Pullings Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'm a sailor. I have a lovely little Capri 22. It's a sloop (not the same kind as in the 19th c.), but although sailing rigs have changed, sailing terms and mechanics haven't really changed much. Tacking is indeed a term for crossing the nose of your ship directly through the wind, so that the wind which was coming from the front starboard quarter, for instance, would after turning come from your front port quarter (or larboard, as it was mostly called in the period). Gybing, or jibing, is a turn where your stern rather than your bow crosses the wind. When jibing, it is easier to maintain speed. You cannot sail into the wind. Fore and aft rigs can sail closer to the wind than square rigged ships. Sails don't really work by the wind pushing on them, except when sailing downwind. A sail is like a wing on an airplane and the curvature of the sail produces lift because of pressure differentials. Sails suck you forward through the water, really, when they are set and drawing correctly. You need some wind to maintain that curvature, however, so once your sails are pointing close enough into the wind that no pressure on them is possible (and they sag flat), the ship slows and stops (and eventually is pushed backward...or falls off). Sailing with the wind on one side is also called sailing on a "tack," such as sailing on a starboard tack when sailing with the wind on the starboard side. To sail in the direction of the wind, you do indeed have to zig-zag, sailing as close-hauled as you can on one tack, and then tacking across the wind and sailing as close as you can on the other tack. In this fashion, you usually get where you are wanting to go (except some badly designed ships make a lot of leeway...where the wind pushes them through the water). On most ships, that means swinging through about 90 degrees in each tack (fore and aft ships can sail closer and so tack at lesser angles). I'm still chomping at the bit to get a preorder (discovered this game after the Paypal mess), so I have no game experience, but from watching videos, it appears the developers have done a very good job of modeling the interaction of sail and hull and wind. I suspect that knowing how to sail will be as important as gunnery in this game. That makes me happy. Here are some general references for "Points of Sail" to help you get a clearer idea: http://www.schoolofsailing.net/points-of-sail.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sail Images: https://www.google.com/search?q=points+of+sail&espv=2&biw=1131&bih=730&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=aIK9VLzfFdHtgwT0iYHICA&ved=0CB0QsAQ I can also recommend Ramjb's videos. He knows what he is doing and watching his examples will be more relevant for handling multi-mast square rigged ships. 2
Crimson Sands Gaming Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Dammit Athena, what you doin here... I shall Sink you!
Magnum Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 You can't sail directly against the wind the best you can hope for is "close hauled" so called because of how hard you have to pull on the lines "or haul" Welcome aboard - plenty of ships to go around here! 4
maturin Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 How DID ships sail against the wind? I've never been on a sail boat myself, and while I've learned about the ships in school, yada yada yada, It's never been fully explained exactly how you can go against the wind. I attempted to figure it out by looking at a map of "Air currents", I saw what I remember from school, mostly big circling loops between the continents (which also reflects the water currents), But for instance.. Between America and England, the air currents are traveling West to East, so how did the ships go from England to America's, against the wind? Short answer, a sail can behave like a wing, creating lift. Only in this case, the direction of that lift is not upwards, but forwards. In the game you will see how ships with square sails can rotate them so that the wind strikes at an angle. It's also worth pointing out that a sail can only propel you upwind if you have a keel or some property of the hull that prevents you from just sliding sideways in the water. One way to imagine it is to think of someone shooting a watermelon seed across a table with their thumb. In this case your thumb (the wind) is pushing down on the seed(boat), pressing it into the table. But because the seed can't be pressed into the table (and because the resistance of the keel makes it difficult to slide sideways), it shoots out at right angles to the force that was acting on it. As for how historical vessels sailed against the prevailing westerlies that blow from America to England, IIRC, they would usually dip way down south towards Africa, then ride the trades into the Caribbean. Sailing usually means taking the long way round.
Jemmy_Ducks Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 A square rigged ship really can't sail to windward like a fore 'n aft rigged vessel. Their inablity to get close to the wind, plus the leeway make sailing into the wind nigh impossible. (High performace square riggers re frigates are an exception) If a ship has to get upwind into a narrow bay or such, they anchor and wait for a favorable wind and/or tide, All the great sailing trade routes followed the "Trade Winds", the large wind circulations in most of the ocean basins, clockwise in the northern hemisphere, and counter clockwise in the south. When Columbus sailed to Caribean he was following the southern part of the N. Atlantic iculation that blows east to west. The tales of his crew rising to near mutiny were not because they thought they were going to fall off the edge of the world, but because they had sailed so far downwind they'd never get home. The discovery of the return route north folowing the Gulfstream then into the prevaling westerlies of the N. Atlantic, was probably a bigger discovery than what he gets credit for.
maturin Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Their inablity to get close to the wind, plus the leeway make sailing into the wind nigh impossible. (High performace square riggers re frigates are an exception) That's a bit of an overstatement, unless you're only talking about the worst-case scenario of an objective dead to windward. Square riggers sail quite happily upwind. There's a big difference between infeasibility and impossibility, after all. And there's nothing extraordinarily high performance about most 18th century frigates. They were pretty much indistinguishable from merchant ships of the same rig. Nothing stopped a commercial vessel from slacking off the mainyard truss ropes and pointing just as high.
Magnum Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Nelson's logs show 90 deg (9 points) tacks for a fleet of very indifferent vessels (even accounting for leeway) - blockade duty you know. MIR, the Russian sail-training fully-rigged ship can sail easily at 45 degrees (5points) to the wind, and can with a good helmsman work up to 37 degrees (41/2 points). Many logs from the day claimed long reaches at 31/2 points off the wind (about 28o) but as there is no way to verify ........ So the correct answer is = it depends.... It is also a fact that the average sailor in the early 18th century didn't know how to sail or swim - just follow orders from the sailing master.
Jemmy_Ducks Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 That's a bit of an overstatement, unless you're only talking about the worst-case scenario of an objective dead to windward. Square riggers sail quite happily upwind. There's a big difference between infeasibility and impossibility, after all. True, impossible is an overstatement. Ampaholis is right.... So the correct answer is = it depends.... ...on the ship, helmsman, master and conditions. It not impossible to get to windward BUT, the perils of a lee shore are very real indeed.
maturin Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Many logs from the day claimed long reaches at 31/2 points off the wind (about 28o) but as there is no way to verify ....... No verification needed, as it's impossible for any traditional vessel to point that high. In that period of history, sailing 3 1/2 points means pointing nine or more points off the wind. That is, 3 1/2 points from the highest possible course.
Lady Athena Posted January 20, 2015 Author Posted January 20, 2015 Thanks for all the answers! This helped me understand, especially the "Wing" creating lift example, since I'm such an avid lover of Aeronautics and flight, that really helped me understand.
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 As a flight fanatic, it's fun to also know that a sail will "stall" prior to luffing (or flapping when the wind angle is too small to fill it). In a fore/aft rig (that would be most of the modern rigs on the boats you're used to seeing - in the game, the cutter/Lynx/yacht) when the wind is just starting to angle too closely for the sail to fill, the leading edge of the sail near the mast (named the "Luff" - go figure) will balloon a little in the opposite direction of the sail's fill. This is a "stall", and it's what you look for when you're adjusting the sail for best speed - you'll let out the boom (let the swinging piece of wood to which the bottom, or "Foot" of the sail is attached out away from you), just until you see the stall, then you pull the sheet back in just enough for the stall to go away. Similarly, if you're trying to point as close as possible to the wind, you'll sheet the boom all the way in, and then bring the bow up into the wind until you see the stall, then let the bow fall off away from the wind just a hair - you're as close as you can go in that particular speed of wind. Unfortunately, stalls and luffing are not modeled in the sails in the game at the moment, you can simply see the sail go "flat" when it's not drawing air, but it's a neat little real world fun fact for you. Welcome to the game!
Tom Pullings Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Actually, the sail will stall (in RL) before you see any evidence of it in the sail itself, such as luffing. That's why most sailors attach telltales to their sails (little bits of yarn or tape). These will stream aft when the sail is "lifting" or drawing correctly, and flop around when the air flow is detaching from the sail creating turbulence or buffeting, which is what a stall is. I'm a pilot in RL too. I love playing with the wind in one form or another.
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Actually, the sail will stall (in RL) before you see any evidence of it in the sail itself, such as luffing. That's why most sailors attach telltales to their sails (little bits of yarn or tape). These will stream aft when the sail is "lifting" or drawing correctly, and flop around when the air flow is detaching from the sail creating turbulence or buffeting, which is what a stall is. I'm a pilot in RL too. I love playing with the wind in one form or another. Completely true, I just didn't want to get down to that level of detail, the post was getting large enough as it was.
Agin Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Most of here explained how ships could sail close haul, however they didnt even have to sail close haul. Dont forget that during the Age of sail usual trade route would be from Europe to East Africa then to the Americas and back to europe. They would take the canary current to the africa, trade guns, ammo and other trade commodities in exchange for slaves in africa and take them to the americas. Trade the slaves for sugar, tobacco, etc and sail home with the north atlantic current. Edited March 8, 2015 by Agin
Tom Pullings Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Those are currents, not prevailing winds. Although there are prevailing wind patterns as well. The winds just don't always conform to them over the course of a given day or week.
Agin Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 As the winds sweep across the ocean surface, they drive the ocean surface currents. Over periods of months to years they set up a global circulation of surface currents, which reflects the patterns of the prevailing winds.
Tom Pullings Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Yes, there is some overlap, and wind is one among several factors driving currents. But the Ekman Spiral effect means that the faster currents move at an angle to the wind, and the faster the flow, the more it moves against the wind. In addition, the prevailing winds pattern is much simpler, and they are prevailing winds, not constant winds, and sometimes don't correspond to the current, even when blowing in their usual pattern. So sailing upwind is something ships had to do with some frequency even out on the open ocean. That's all I'm saying. Certainly trade routes took advantage of the prevailing winds, but even ships following those would find winds against them at times, and naval ships couldn't always follow trade routes.
Magnum Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Ocean currents are caused by the water moving ----- the water is moved by "lots" of phenomenon ----- therefore ocean currents are caused by complex interactions of "lots" of phenomenon. More than you ever wanted to know about what causes ocean currents: http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/facts/currents.html You know it is a complex subject - when there is a fairly well funded government organization set up to study it! Edited March 13, 2015 by ampaholic
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