F11 Coordinates Removal was a Mistake

[Tenet]

Dear Developers,

I really wanted to write a positive review when the game would be coming out, despite all the rightfully negative issues with the community interaction, and all the concerns about development issues and DLC's. I wanted to write a review recognizing that above all else, I enjoyed sailing a faithful reproduction of the glorious Age of Sail. I wanted that beauty to prevail, and I held back my impulses to write a review on release.

This is why the unannounced F11 coordinates removal is not just a triviality, not just a Game Design mistake, but a step against the soul of your game.

I will explain all allegations:

You never intended for F11 Coordinates to be part of the final game. The community discovered they can be used with the API to create a beautiful companion to the game like https://na-map.netlify.com/ - the popularity of the tool should have given you pause. You had the opportunity to ask your community why they use this tool. You could have heard response that would indicate it is not just utility, people who love how it makes them feel, how it adds to the immersion of the game. You see glimpses of these posts where people report that they actually Feel like a Navigator when taking a "reading" and plotting it into the chart. You could have capitalized on that feeling.

You assumed the community only uses F11 because it is free and doesn't take perk points or slots. That is not the only reason.

Feeling is a greater reason, and it is key to playing games. 

We play because want to Feel adventurous, we want to feel the wonder of exploration and discovery, we want to feel the rush of battle, we want to feel like we are a period Captain determining the course for their  fleet. Even the non-themed F11 Coordinate implementation and https://na-map.netlify.com/ provided such feelings. Sextant perk, unfortunately, does not. It's just another automation.  

We do not play the game to unlock the ship of +1, although that can feel nice. We still return to the game because small parts of it feel great enough to make the struggle worthwhile. F11 Coordinates was one such part, and you removed without understanding how it made us feel.

You listen too much to the few remaining people who still chase their kill++, and not enough to the few remaining people that chase feelings.

I won't write about anything else in my upcoming Steam Review. This example is sufficiently telling.

Prove me wrong.

p.s. People who responded without reading the arguments are depressing. Do me a favor, if you read this far, give me a sign.

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Tenet
I softened and shortened the post, to make it more poignant.

[PG Monkey]

sextant perk

[Severus Snape]

I find the removal of f11 to be mildly amusing under the premise that it's going to assist PVP when there are perks out there like sextant......So I can kinda agree with you.  Instead of everyone using f11 to say "help me" they'll just take a screenshot of where they EXACTLY are on the map with sextant.  

But knowing you primarily play on the PVE server (by your own admission), why exactly is remove f11 coords a serious detriment to the game?  Considering you're not fighting players over there in the land of milk and honey....you don't really need to have all your perks geared towards it. 

[z4ys]

Glad the "f11" aka bug report coords are gone for players.

There is still the sextant perk tho. No reason to complain just reskill

[Tenet]

11 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Glad the "f11" aka bug report coords are gone for players.

There is still the sextant perk tho. No reason to complain just reskill

You did not read my post. You are a human with feelings, right? Do you read?

Imagine if I mass-downvoted your youtube videos without watching them, that is how you treated my post.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Tenet

[Reginulfr]

F11 coordinates I thought was always a bug that was always meant to be removed (going back to when open world was first released).  That said, I read at least one positive mention about the removal of it, because no longer can someone give exact coords when being ganked.  Even with the sextant perk, the size of the image still gives a little approximation of where you are.

Sextant does kill the point, but you have to give up a perk slot.  Otherwise you can still triangulate your position using the trader tool (and the makers of  https://na-map.netlify.com/ could probably add something where if you put the distance between 3 ports, it will tell you where you are on the map which would be really cool).

This is the closest to real navigation you can get I'd think (when I was on watch even with GPS you'd still take 3 radar bearings every 30 minutes when sailing close to the coast) unless they implemented using the stars at night.  So if you want to feel legit navigation, you can still do it without the sextant perk and personally I think that's a lot more immersive. 

Compared to all the other gameplay mechanics i'd have thought F11 was the last thing people would be annoyed at.  

 

[huliotkd]

i played before the introduction of f11 coord, before sextant, before map-grid...

i survived...same you can do

Edited May 31, 2019 by huliotkd

[Tenet]

10 minutes ago, Severus Snape said:

But knowing you primarily play on the PVE server (by your own admission), why exactly is remove f11 coords a serious detriment to the game? 

BECAUSE IT BLOODY FEELS LIKE NAVIGATING. 

I take a READING.

I CONVERT the reading by a simple operation. 

I enter the reading into a Chart that looks like an actual Map. 

I place multiple points on the map and connect them with lines. I do NOT need these to be accurate! 

The history of my travels in that session is remembered - and looks like a real navigation chart! 

This FEELS IMMERSIVE. Sextant is just automation. 

Why not just sail the ship for me?!

I am a HUMAN not a machine. I am not trying to score another kill in PvP or gain another ship of +1, I want to FEEL SOMETHING. Can you not see that? Can you not read?

Edited May 31, 2019 by Tenet

[Severus Snape]

3 minutes ago, Tenet said:

BECAUSE IT BLOODY FEELS LIKE NAVIGATING. 

I take a READING.

I CONVERT the reading by a simple operation. 

I enter the reading into a Chart that looks like an actual Map. 

I place multiple points on the map and connect them with lines. I do NOT need these to be accurate! 

The history of my travels in that session is remembered - and looks like a real navigation chart! 

This FEELS IMMERSIVE. Sextant is just automation. 

Why not just sail the ship for me?!

I am a HUMAN not a machine. I am not trying to score another kill in PvP or gain another ship of +1, I want to FEEL SOMETHING. Can you not see that? Can you not read?

Immersion......PVE server.......Does not compute.  

[Tenet]

33 minutes ago, Severus Snape said:

Immersion......PVE server.......Does not compute.  

In my last port battle on PvP, I put the final broadside into King of Crown's Santisima, near Port de Paix, then rage boarded a second Santisima from his clan, winning the action before my original ship sank, then had that enemy Santisima turn its guns against its allies until it too was sank, adding my tiny contribution to another [BLACK] victory. Will you ever have the opportunity to experience what that level of aggression and drive felt like? Did you ever glimpse a fraction of a fraction of the glory I was lucky to experience?

I don't know if I'll deserve a PvP reprise, luck has it's limits - but one can hope. 

What do you know about PvP or PvE or any other kind of immersion that I do not? Stick to the arguments son.

29 minutes ago, Mascarino said:

If you have those "external tools", why you so concerned with the removal of F11 coords?

You try to defeat his argument, but both of you are ignoring mine, because you have no answer. 

You talk about utility, where the main reason F11 Coordinates are superior to Sextant perk is that they are simply more fun to use. They FEEL more like actual Navigation. How do you answer that?

35 minutes ago, Wraith said:

So why not just leave it in and make people happy?

Why do you keep arguing for utility instead of the actual source of happiness - when game features feel immersive? 

I am operating on the assumption that the Trader Tool distances are going to be removed next. I prefer if we could take actual sun/stars readings at specific intervals - or have officers that do and we have to pick which results to trust more. Trader tool is definitely more immersive than current Sextant perk.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Tenet

[Severus Snape]

7 minutes ago, Tenet said:

In my last port battle on PvP, I put the final broadside into King of Crown's Santisima, near Port de Paix, then rage boarded a second Santisima from his clan, winning the action before my original ship sank, then had that enemy Santisima turn its guns against its allies until it too was sank, adding my tiny contribution to another [BLACK] victory. Will you ever have the opportunity to experience what that level of aggression and drive felt like? Did you ever glimpse a fraction of a fraction of the glory I was lucky to experience?

The battles on PVP2 do not compare to the fights that were on PVP1.  And this is coming from someone who played on both.  I wouldn't be so quick to compare your experiences there to others.  Laugh.

I find it hard get a perspective on your immersion (or anyone's really) when sailing on the PVE server and not having to be wary of which targets are friend or foe.  Kinda like how you have to do on the PVP server and captains in the 18th and 19th centuries had to do IRL.  Or the fact that there are several hundred 1st rates sailing around in game.....or that battles are instanced.....or that we travel at warp speed around the map.  

[Barbancourt]

Never used f11 or the sextant perk.  Compass/protractor and trader tool distances are the true navigation tools. 

[Tenet]

Just now, Severus Snape said:

The battles on PVP2 do not compare to the fights that were on PVP1.  And this is coming from someone who played on both.  I wouldn't be so quick to compare your experiences there to others.  Laugh.

I find it hard get a perspective on your immersion (or anyone's really) when sailing on the PVE server and not having to be wary of which targets are friend or foe.  Kinda like how you have to do on the PVP server and captains in the 18th and 19th centuries had to do IRL.  Or the fact that there are several hundred 1st rates sailing around in game.....or that battles are instanced.....or that we travel at warp speed around the map.  

That is a false analogy. 

I sail my ship by turning the yards and the rudder, not by clicking and watching it go like an RTS unit. 

I find my position on the map by taking a Reading (Sun, Stars, F11 Coordinates), and plotting it into a map-like chart. 

Sextant is analogous to automation - to having my ship sailed for me. To having my location given to me on a silver platter.

That is not immersive, and you know it, which is why you distract from this argument.

[Mr. Doran]

On 5/31/2019 at 5:05 PM, Tenet said:

BECAUSE IT BLOODY FEELS LIKE NAVIGATING. 

 

No need for inappropriate language.

[Tenet]

On 5/31/2019 at 5:56 PM, Mr. Doran said:

No need for inappropriate language.

Thank you for the compliment. How is version 2 of your treatise coming along? 

Seems complicated to remember all those lovely wear and tack diagrams you use, should we automate frigate dueling? Use some D&D derived rule-set? Perhaps a Trinc 1v1 Perk (6pts) with +50% chance to win? No?

[Severus Snape]

Just now, Tenet said:

That is a false analogy. 

I sail my ship by turning the yards and the rudder, not by clicking and watching it go like an RTS unit. 

I find my position on the map by taking a Reading (Sun, Stars, F11 Coordinates), and plotting it into a map-like chart. 

Sextant is analogous to automation - to having my ship sailed for me. To having my location given to me on a silver platter.

That is not immersive, and you know it, which is why you distract from this argument.

You can't turn your yards (or manual sail) on the OW......where you are able to view F11 coords.  

This is an open world sailing MMO.  Not a sailing simulator.  They also said that F11 would be removed...years ago.  

[MidnightLight]

I don't even see why this matters Because the only thing you do now is Farm AI on the PvE sever. you have lost your PvP Street Creed the Second you went to the PvE Sever and let the record be Set Strait the Days Of PvP 2 Black Clan have been over ever since the sever merge  

[MidnightLight]

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by MidnightLight

[Tenet]

12 minutes ago, MidnightLight said:

I don't even see why this matters Because the only thing you do now is Farm AI on the PvE sever. you have lost your PvP Street Creed the Second you went to the PvE Sever and let the record be Set Strait the Days Of PvP 2 Black Clan have been over ever since the sever merge  

I may have lost my PvP "street cred" by joining my friends on PvE, but even a forum alt user like you knows I had the cred to lose. I don't hide behind a forum alt while trash-talking. 

That was the point. PvP or PvE, I know why I love Age of Sail, regardless of whether I get to sink a top PvP player or a dumb AI. I know what feels immersive, and what does not. I know why alt accounts like you can make snarky remarks on these forums, while 99% of the playerbase quit since release. 

I know why Mr. Doran has a "Trinc 1v1" tag under his name and not a "Frigate Dueling Perk +50% winrate". 

Player actions create feelings. Automated Perks destroy feeling. That's the difference.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Tenet

[Tenet]

8 minutes ago, Severus Snape said:

You can't turn your yards (or manual sail) on the OW...

Which is why it's even more incredibly boring than it should have been, and why people end up getting to 1st Rates, even on PvP server, without knowing how to properly tack! You proved my point.

Give me yard control in open world! 

[MidnightLight]

Then Please Go back to your AI Farming ways and leave this Forum Because the only thing you are going to get is the Salty Tears coming down your face because the Devs took out the F11 that they said was going years ago

 

[RKY]

triangulate with trader tool like most people instead of using a cheat code. it feels much more real than looking at a map giving you pinpoint position.

 

[Papillon]

I can't get behind the OP at all.  I agree with RKY, it's nothing but a cheat code.  I've been at this for over 3 years like so many of you, and I don't need any of it.  You sail and learn the ocean.  I've fallen asleep on long sails on more than one occasion, no big deal, just sail west when you wake up in the middle of nowhere.  Remove F11 coords?  Just fine.  There's no feel or immersion in a cheat code.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Papillon

[Tenet]

Just now, RKY said:

triangulate with trader tool like most people instead of using a cheat code. it feels much more real than looking at a map giving you pinpoint position.

 

I answered this argument before - Trader Tool does feel better than the Sextant "cheat code" where you pick a perk and instantly learn your exact position without having to do anything that feels like navigation or plotting course on a map. 

Trader tool was also announced to be going away by Admin. You want to use Sextant instead? You should be on my side of the argument. 

We can agree that F11 Coordinates are not themed and too accurate. That is not a requirement. They could be made Fuzzy, as part of a re-design. What is more immersive, taking a reading of Sun / Stars and a Clock, or pressing one button?

[Tenet]

Just now, Papillon said:

I can't get behind the OP at all.  I agree with RKY, it's nothing but a cheat code.  I've been at this for over 3 years like so many of you, and I don't need any of it.  You sail and learn the ocean.  I've fallen asleep on long sails on more than one occasion, no big deal, just sail west.  Remove F11?  Just fine.  There's no feel or immersion in a cheat code.

You can't agree with me because you haven't read my post and knee-jerked into this reaction. I explained how F11 Coordinates should be integrated into the game - made into actual Sun/Star/Clock reading, or simplification thereof, or just simply much less accurate (so no longer a "cheat"). 

You can find my post with more detail in Suggestions. That is not the point. The point is Sextant is a poor automated alternative, the real "Cheat Code" spend 2 perk points automation.

Do you spend perk points on winning your PvP duels? Why not, wouldn't that be simpler? Why don't you have a Duel Winning Perk of +50% winrate? Why is Sextant acceptable to you? You do know even Trader Tool distances will get removed, right?"