Elite ships

[Jan van Santen]

2 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Indeed, the new elite ships are great.

I hit upon guys telling me "there is no difference between regular ships and elite ships" - but this thread and my own experience tell different.

News about new loot types coming up like new cannons sound intriguing.

We are still wondering  on PvE Peace Server, if groups with the elite (skull) marker on the tag window mean that all ships in NPC group are elite or just the leader?

According to my impression, all of them are buffed opponents...

 hit a Belle (skull) + 1 today, the +1 was an ordinary Cerb

[James Thomson]

2 hours ago, Captain Hammered said:

Well; speaking for myself I'm not familiar with any 'bugs' past the AI's unfortunate tendency to beach themselves - which could be bloody useful in times of stress (chuckle). In my particular case it looked like my enemy Bellona was heading for a certain beaching; he turned at the last minute and actively close-hauled away; I was rather impressed.

Beyond that, if anyone can define why using an enemy's weakness against them isn't a basic principle in combat, I'd love to hear it.

Anyhoo; whatever people who want to complain about what isn't instead of enjoying what is will say; I enjoyed myself immensely. 

Here's a video of the duel; hope you like it:

 

Cheers!

This was nice to watch! Im amazed how you were able to bounce so many of his shots angling. When i try Angle in my pandorra or surprise, all the shots just smash in like i didnt angle at all. I can bounce some in my Aga anyhow...

But i tip my hat off for you! This was nice fight!

[Barbancourt]

5 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

AIs main weakness is that it doesn't know how to position itself. 

There are much simpler weaknesses.  I'd start with the fact they don't repair.  There are plenty of other simple things to fix...

New guns will be fun.  So would some Hot Shot ammo.

 

[Jan Bellaq]

I dont' know if its a bug or intended drop rate, but yesterday i sunk 2 elite USS and none of them dropped note. What is a drop chance for elite ship note?

 

[--Privateer--]

I beat a Elite Pavel vs my legacy Bucentaure. Just sailed parallel doing normal broadsides, took about 5 min. Not sure if it's because Pavels are really bad or the legacy Buc is good. 

[Captain Hammered]

6 hours ago, James Thomson said:

This was nice to watch! Im amazed how you were able to bounce so many of his shots angling. When i try Angle in my pandorra or surprise, all the shots just smash in like i didnt angle at all. I can bounce some in my Aga anyhow...

But i tip my hat off for you! This was nice fight!

Thanks, that's nice of you to say.  I'm trying to get better at video making. 

Here's the thing about angle-armour: it's extremely specific to ship type. Different ships have different abilities in the angles and it's important to know how your ship reacts to fire at different angles, ranges and calibers. 

The Bellona is easy, because it's got the largest angle-armour stats per ship size in the game. By that I mean by placing an enemy at the 45 or 135 degree position relative to your ship, it has the strongest chance of bouncing even the largest shot at close range. Between those angles the effect drops sharply, reaching 0 at 90 degrees - dead abeam. But - here's where people sometimes screw up - beyond those angles (closer to the bow or stern) the values drop off as well - not to mention opening up those vulnerable areas to attack. 

It's best to practice getting hit - believe it or not - when taking over a new ship by letting some weak puppy blast away at you and seeing what his shots do. A good tactic is to catch some poor trader in a TBrig and parallel him at different angles and ranges. See what his fire does to you under different conditions and write those values down - you'll see the pattern of your angle armour appear fairly quickly. (Then blast the lil' bugger!  )

Angle armour and wind usage are two excellent skills to practice. Get good at them and you'll have a much easier time.

Cheers!

[Captain Hammered]

6 hours ago, Jan Bellaq said:

I dont' know if its a bug or intended drop rate, but yesterday i sunk 2 elite USS and none of them dropped note. What is a drop chance for elite ship note?

 

So far as I've seen, it's about 50%, at least in the half-dozen or so elite battles I've fought. IOW, a ship will have a 50-50 chance of having a note. But that's just a guess at this stage; I need a LOT more points to track before coming up with a definitive number.

 

[HachiRoku]

17 hours ago, Wraith said:

They don't do anything random at the moment, at least as far as I can tell. What I was saying is that you could easily make them sail perfectly in terms of manual sailing and choosing points off the wind, etc., but you could implement variability in AI "skill" by adding "error" both in sail setting and angle choice, but also in aiming, etc.

And as far as predicting.. heh, I'd say that fully 90% of the game for most players the sailing and positioning is purely deterministic. And computers are nothing if not better than humans at pattern recognition.  I have no doubt that you could create a 1v1 AI in Naval Action that would rival any player, if only because it can recognize a player's action and respond much faster than we as players can because the AI could snoop on player inputs.

I think programming smarter fleet action would be more complex, but certainly could be done in a smart and variable way that makes battle against AI much more interesting than just fighting the dumbest of superbuffed NPCs.

I highly doubt it because response doesn't matter in the game. I think you are being extremely optimistic about ai rivaling players. Self learning ai could do it but programmed ai will never be nearly as compeditve as the player. Increasing difficulty in games only really ever increases the "cheating" stats and aggression. The errors you want to add in is also just a random stat that will never make them smarter. Probably a cfg file. I cannot seem to understand how you want them to be smarter in a realistic manner since AI programming requires a shit ton of knowhow and resources. I am looking forward to the self learning ai in future games. You're right that 90% of players end up where the wind leads them but the same 90% of players don't care about how the ai behaves. They care about the difficulty and that has nothing to do with the ai behavior but only stats. 

[HachiRoku]

16 hours ago, Barbancourt said:

There are much simpler weaknesses.  I'd start with the fact they don't repair.  There are plenty of other simple things to fix...

New guns will be fun.  So would some Hot Shot ammo.

 

If they repaired they would only be more annoying. Ai sucks **** in this game and every other game. Just imagine how frustrating it would become.... 

[HachiRoku]

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

lol, that's what they said about chess and then Go too

I said self learning ai could do it and for the rest I will read rest later. I am in the middle of something in rdr2

[Captain Hammered]

37 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't think you even need anything like self learning AI to create something that plays unpredictably and able enough to feel like it's not having to cheat to compete.  It just requires more than the most basic approach to accomplish, and it would have been nice to have a bit of time and effort be placed by the development team into that aspect of the game instead of taking the cheapest and easy way out by both buffing (gunnery, boarding, etc.) and nerfing (turn rate, sailing, tactics) the AI in outrageously unrealistic ways.

I don't disagree, and would enjoy seeing AI that could rep, take/keep the weather-gauge, etc. 

However, let's look at the possibilities: 

Suppose they did add AI that could a) repair, b) counter what people rather hilariously here call 'kiting', c) plot their moves dependent on player performance and  d) retreat or surrender ifd overpowered by the player - all things people are asking for.

"Waaaa! The AI's too hard!!!"

"Devs, the AI is unbeatable - DO SOMETHING NOW!!!"

"Devs, the AI is WAAAAY too easy! I kill them every time!"

"AAAARGH! The only time they fight is when I can't beat them! If I can they run!"

"The AI cheats!"

"The AI sucks!"

"They kill me every time!"

"This game is dead. Thanks Devs!"

 

Et cetera, ad nauseam. 

I agree that I'd love to see these things - if only for the immense pleasure of hearing the howls of anguish from players. However, asking for these things (ad nauseam) in every possible post and forum is beating a dead horse - it's not going to happen.

Devs have come up with a relatively equal middle ground - AI which is good enough but not too good...roughly judged by the number of people that howl, scream and complain on either side of the spectrum. 😉

Edited May 25, 2019 by Captain Hammered

[Papillon]

6 hours ago, Wraith said:

lol, that's what they said about chess and then Go too.. ...

Trying to discern what you meant.  Are you referring to creating a player ELO rating system?  I would like that idea, except it's kind of hard with multiplayer and the ability to have open battles where others can join.  But maybe that's not what you are referring to?

[James Thomson]

AI kiting is, is tactic where you intentionally show AI your stern while running so it shoots it and misses horribly. (AI always shoots side with less armor which is stern) 

So even how hilarious it may be i still think its not counted as proper angling but fooling the ai shoot a miss.

We were wanting historically accurate fighting or not? 

[Barbancourt]

6 hours ago, James Thomson said:

AI kiting is, is tactic where you intentionally show AI your stern while running so it shoots it and misses horribly.

For me "kiting" is making the AI chase me downwind while I shoot into its bow faster than it can turn and return fire.   I chain the AI just a little bit (save most of the chain) and run downwind.  Once the AI is solidly lined up chasing me I adjust the distance just right and swing from side to side putting repeated broadsides up its nose until it dies.  (pack longs)  After every broadside I make sure it is lined up straight to chase me again before turning for the next.  Repair at leisure, since it can't shoot back.  Normal AI can't respond fast enough and just get bow raked to death.  It's possible the elite AI can turn fast enough to shoot back - I haven't tried it on them yet.  If so, they will need all the chain to slow them down.  The "kiting" process is boring and takes a long time so I only do it if I think I'm losing or don't want to use repairs in a battle.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Barbancourt

[James Thomson]

Yes that is kiting aswell but its broken. In Naval Action NPC will just miss all shots to the stern when being kited. They should fix some of the parameters how AI decides to aim on your ship when in that situation. Instead of boosting it to ironclad. Players know hot to aim so they take your sails or masts as target at this situation example.

[Ahoy H.R. Matey]

So I'm going to dampen this lovefest a bit by providing a contrarian opinion.

At this point, as far as PvE is concerned, Naval Action might as well drop the word "realistic" from its description. I am not sure if it ever hit the sweet spot as far as combat realism in PvE goes, but it is now just about as far from it as it has ever been. Ironically, as much as I hate PvP, it currently provides a much more "realistic" experience than PvE as far as battle dynamics are concerned.

Mind you, the "realism" elements are there: the sailing physics, the cannonball physics, etc.. However, in how they are applied and tuned is where realism falls apart.

NPC AI is dumb. Ever since the "rulers of the sea" patch, the AI stupidity has been compensated with overboard buffs and cheating. Now, elite NPCs further exacerbate the problem by simply being "the bots that cheat even more."  This is not a solution for realistic PvE combat experience. Bot ships are already "SuperOak/DuperPlanking/UberCannonsOnSwivels"; elite ships are "Steel/Steel/EvenBetterUberCannonsOnSwivels/CrewInFlakJacketsWithAK47s". Sure, you can beat them by exploiting AI flaws. Just like you beat "boss" opponents in traditional MMOs like WoW. Does it work? Sure. Is it "in spirit" of realism that Naval Action purports to have? Not in the least.

If I sail a Bellona and I see an NPC Bellona, I can't expect the NPC Bellona to deliver the same performance as my Bellona. NPC ships, both regular and elite, far outclass player ships. Certainly, it provides entertainment for those few who are bored out of their collective gourd by presenting "exciting challenges", but it breaks both the immersion and I daresay breaks the very idea of what NA purports to be. At this point, as far as PvE is concerned, it might as well be one of the other sailing MMOs with "lieutenants" and "bosses" running around.

Smart AI is difficult, I get it. Heaping buffs on NPCs on the other hand is a quick and handy shortcut. But shortcuts are not always the best solution.

At this point, because of this shortcut, the PvP and PvE experiences have cardinally diverged. For those looking to "graduate" from PvE to PvP, bots teach nothing at this point other than "how to seal-club lesser ships in bigger ships and exploit the weaknesses in the AI programming". For those looking to just play PvE, we are stuck with opponents whose ships LOOK like ours, yet behave nothing like ours, be they elite or regular.

IDK, maybe this is just the devs' roundabout way of driving people away from PvE and to PvP so that Peace server can lose pop and be shut down painlessly.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Ahoy H.R. Matey

[HachiRoku]

On 5/25/2019 at 5:33 PM, Wraith said:

lol, that's what they said about chess and then Go too..  Look, is it easy to create AI that plays under exactly the same conditions that players do and make them better than the best players?  No. But is it easier to make them better than 90% of your players?  Absolutely, especially in a game that is as predictable and algorithmic as Naval Action. It's a different kind of predictive analytics that is more akin to pattern matching simply because of the number of turns ahead and the angling needed to create flush broadside hits, but it's still something computers do far, far better than average humans with.

But without me actually developing the algorithms for you I doubt I'll actually be able to convince you since you just like to argue for the sake of being contrary, so I fear we're getting lost in the weeds. SO back on topic: I'm not advocating for AI that can beat your average player.  Instead, what I'd like to see is variable AI, that's less predictable and doesn't resort to ridiculous cheating to be mildly competitive.  In fact, I'd rather have on average much easier AI, that surrenders as soon as they've been badly damaged or decrewed, in order to accomplish what all other MMOs have for a PvE activity: gathering.

If you assume that the majority of players in Naval Action are non-trader types, then "gathering" AI ships and their cargo, either to sell or break up for crafting resources should be the primary XP and Real generating activity in the game. That gathering activity forms the scaffold on which PvP is built and the backbone on which players rise through the ranks and gain experience, ships, modules, knowledge, etc. to prepare for end-game PvP and RvR.  

And right now the AI is hopelessly predictable, cheats and cheezes it's way through battles, and the rewards for players committing themselves to fighting them don't support this progression.

I don't know. To me it's more complicated than you make it out too be. The way 90% of retards play the ai are fine the way they are. If you could program them not to get stuck in the wind as much and sail close hauled zick zack then the ai would improve alot already I guess. 

[o Barão]

I want to thank you devs for this nice idea. I returned in the last days for the release and I finally got to tested this Elite ships a few times. I just had a battle against a Belle Poule and the reward was amazing. This is great for all solo players that have problems to have acess to crafting ships with port bonus and makes the OW experience much more interesting.

 

I usually make hard critics to some the devs decisions about the game but this time I need to say this new feature it was a brilliant idea. 

 

Great work.