HP values a tad off? (Endy - Surp)

[HachiRoku]

7 hours ago, admin said:

• 49m 1300 Tons burthen super-frigate (almost super frigate)
• vs
• 35m (some sources 38m) 400 tons burthen light corvette
   

she is a super frigate. Atleast in my eyes she is. When does a frigate become a superfrigate anyway?

[HachiRoku]

8 hours ago, Liq said:

A little bit unbalanced me thinks? Or should it be considered a given fact that endy wrecks the Surprise?

An endy wrecks a trinco to. There is actually no balance ship to ship anymore and I like that to be fair. I am still however not fond of the still op armour values because even if you only had 30% less hp you would still be wrecked since your guns dont pen either. I mean 32 carros or 9s are a joke against a battle designed endy. Shit even if you had the exact same amout of HP you would be smashed. Armour should not matter since broadside patch yet we are back to square 1 because people cried about to low armour values since as always noone took the op armour mods stacked with live oak or teak wo into account. The endy has almost 20cm advantage on you with a way better 3d hull shape for bouncing. 20cm is insane.  

Edited May 23, 2019 by HachiRoku

[DeRuyter]

6 hours ago, William Death said:

Surprise used to be one of my favorite frigates. With the new damage model I’ve accepted that I’ll really only have a use for her in the shallows. You simply can’t balance small frigates to be useful against larger frigates without them becoming vastly OP in the shallows. 

Surprise and all the other 9pd “frigates” are effectively just 6th rates these days. I don’t care what the card says, I just look at how the ships stack up against each other. (Which is why Constitution is a 4th rate still, in my eyes).

With the new damage model, bigger guns = winner of the fight. With the old damage model, Surprise (with mega mast mods) stood a chance against that Endy if the Endy skipper was bad. Rakes and careful angling, sneaky chainshot, etc. could net you a win. Now all the Endy has to do is land one or two broadsides and the Surprise is done.

Not a good damage model, IMO. But here we are with it. Point enough guns in the right general direction and spam broadsides, you’ll eventually win. Old damage model prioritized skilled tactics and experience. The new model places more emphasis on ship type and gear. 

Disguising your Surprise as a whaler may help. 😉

 

 

[LeBoiteux]

8 hours ago, admin said:

 

• 35m (some sources 38m) 400 tons burthen light corvette
   

 'plain' corvette.

At the time of the Surprise (179x), French corvettes had from 18x 6-pdr guns up to (24x 8-pdr + 6x 4-pdr) guns.

in-game Surprise and her 38 guns plus chasers can't be considered as light.

6 hours ago, RKY said:

oh, our surprise is a 6th rate.

Indeed :

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[LeBoiteux]

Simply put, our in-game Surprise (Unité class) :

• during French service : 24x 8-pdr guns + 6x 4-pdr guns. Categorized as a Corvette (source : Boudriot)
• during British service : 24x 9-pdr guns + 6x 12-pdr carro + 10x 4-pdr guns. Categorized as a 6th rate (source : threedecks ; R. Winfield, British Warships in the Age of Sail 1793 - 1817)
• during "Naval action" service : 24x 9-pdr guns + 14x 6-pdr guns (or full carro). Categorized as a 5th rate (source : in game)

 

R. Winfield, British Warships in the Age of Sail 1793 - 1817) :

Edited May 23, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[LeBoiteux]

btw all our "shallow water frigates" were considered as 6th rates by the British Rate system (Surprise, Cerberus, Pandora, Surprise). 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[DeRuyter]

16 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:

Simply put, our in-game Surprise (Unité class) :

• during French service : 24x 8-pdr guns + 6x 4-pdr guns. Categorized as a Corvette (source : Boudriot)
• during British service : 24x 9-pdr guns + 6x 12-pdr carro + 10x 4-pdr guns. Categorized as a 6th rate (source : threedecks ; R. Winfield, British Warships in the Age of Sail 1793 - 1817)
• during "Naval action" service : 24x 9-pdr guns + 14x 6-pdr guns (or full carro). Categorized as a 5th rate (source : in game)

 

R. Winfield, British Warships in the Age of Sail 1793 - 1817) :

Very nice - I need to pick up this book!

I see three decks also showing the 32 lb carronade armament in the notes, but I don't see any details on it. Do you know the source for it? I always assumed that HMS Surprise had the carro main battery in British service but that appears not to be the case or am I confusing ships here?

 

[LeBoiteux]

25 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

I see three decks also showing the 32 lb carronade armament in the notes, but I don't see any details on it. Do you know the source for it?

Look at a page of threedecks.

Opposite an info, there is its source.

For example, see below, the source of the nominal guns is :'BWAS 1714'. Click on it, you will find out that it is R. Winfield, British Warships in the Age of Sail, 1714...

About the 32-pdr carro of HMS Surprise, it is not a "note" but a simple comment by a poster who unfortunately did not mention his source as far as I know :

25 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

I always assumed that HMS Surprise had the carro main battery in British service but that appears not to be the case or am I confusing ships here?

I can't answer any question about any British service, sorry. 😁 Sorry.

You see the source of threedecks above (R. Winfield) and what he says about the armament of HMS Surprise.

Some NA posters around may have other sources/knowledge.

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Vernon Merrill]

Brits referred to these as “Post Ships”. Basically small 6th rates that were cheap and usually sturdy that were able to pass over even shallow bars to extend Britain’s show of power.  They were, however, still commanded by a captain that had “made post”.

HMS Pandora is a famous example of one of these as well.  

[DeRuyter]

On 5/24/2019 at 11:06 AM, LeBoiteux said:

Look at a page of threedecks.

Opposite an info, there is its source.

For example, see below, the source of the nominal guns is :'BWAS 1714'. Click on it, you will find out that it is R. Winfield, British Warships in the Age of Sail, 1714...

About the 32-pdr carro of HMS Surprise, it is not a "note" but a simple comment by a poster who unfortunately did not mention his source as far as I know :

I can't answer any question about any British service, sorry. 😁 Sorry.

You see the source of threedecks above (R. Winfield) and what he says about the armament of HMS Surprise.

Some NA posters around may have other sources/knowledge.

 

Right I know the sources for threedecks - but as you noted the comment about the 32 lb carros did not list a source. I know it is out there somewhere and the RN did experiment with larger ships with main battery carronades (HMS Glatton for one).