Angus MacDuff Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 The problem is that you can now turn your port bonus ships into tanks. They did say that the mods and port bonuses will be nerfed, so there is hope. It's still pretty optimistic to take a 5th against a 4th. Certainly, 32pdr Carros should penetrate anything at 150m. 2
Tom Farseer Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 22 minutes ago, Aquillas said: Yesterday, in front of KPR I sent a full broadside from my 32 pounds carronades (Belle Poule) into an Agamemnon (90°, aimed in sides, from 150 metres). None penetrated. Probably port bonuses and Carta and so on stacked. The question is, if fifths rates cannot deal with fourth anymore, what is their place in battle? Do we need Monitor and Merrimack in game? A Live Oak/White Oak Agamemnon with Hull Bonus 4, Navy Planking and Navy Structure Refit will have 87 or 88 amour thickness on the sides. 32pd carronades penetration at 150m is 87, so you may have just perfectly hit the range threshold at which you wont pen anymore. Thing is: this is an extreme case and carronades are specifically designed for closest ranges ingame. However that does not mean that 5ths automatically lose to 4th rates in any way. You just need to change tactics. Damage by raking the stern is devastating nowadays and your carros will easily penetrate that armor on 150m+. Use your mobility and you still have a chance. Even if the Aggy has sailing bonus at 4 as well your turn rate is significantly higher. Personally I think it is good that most 5ths will straight up lose a broadside vs broadside battle against most 4ths. "Most" being the operative word... 3
Sir Texas Sir Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Tom Farseer said: A Live Oak/White Oak Agamemnon with Hull Bonus 4, Navy Planking and Navy Structure Refit will have 87 or 88 amour thickness on the sides. 32pd carronades penetration at 150m is 87, so you may have just perfectly hit the range threshold at which you wont pen anymore. Thing is: this is an extreme case and carronades are specifically designed for closest ranges ingame. However that does not mean that 5ths automatically lose to 4th rates in any way. You just need to change tactics. Damage by raking the stern is devastating nowadays and your carros will easily penetrate that armor on 150m+. Use your mobility and you still have a chance. Even if the Aggy has sailing bonus at 4 as well your turn rate is significantly higher. Personally I think it is good that most 5ths will straight up lose a broadside vs broadside battle against most 4ths. "Most" being the operative word... I thought the 87 pen was at 250m? With 115 at 100m so it would actually be some where in the middle at 150m....so about 101 pen? The thing is from my experience most the time when folks said they didn't pen they weren't exactly 90 like they say or they where aiming at angled sides (not all ships are flat ). You can still bounce shots even up close if they have a bit of curve to the hull (like the Bell Poule does and is known for doing). That or was a lot further than 150m. I agree with the rest, if your going to try to brawl with the Aggy her's going to tear you to pieces broad side to broad side other wise (HP difference and Broad side), but use you agility to wear him down. 1
Aquillas Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) I agree and as a captain who likes using small ships, I know their role: proper tag, sails, stern. And go to sides, when you see the enemy just fired a broadside, fire yours, angulate and escape (hit and run). Because you're in a fleet, stern raking will prevent bigger ships to do their job, because you are locking the way. At the beginning of the fight, you have to go to the enemy fleet, reduce the sails of at least one enemy ship (preferably the biggest one) without being sunk or dismasted. Keep them tagged too if you don't have "control". But this made, you have to go to sides unless you put trouble in your friendly line. Many such videos on my YouTube channel. Up to last patches, I was able to do some job, even in a Rattlesnake vs third rates fleet. Six pounders were giving hull hits when properly aimed. The role of light ships was obviously not the first role, but it was existing, and it was fun. If new players, in small ships, have no role, no impact and so, no rewards, why should they stay in this game? Edited June 3, 2019 by Aquillas
Licinio Chiavari Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, Aquillas said: I agree and as a captain who likes using small ships, I know their role: proper tag, sails, stern. And go to sides, when you see the enemy just fired a broadside, fire yours, angulate and escape (hit and run). Because you're in a fleet, stern raking will prevent bigger ships to do their job, because you are locking the way. At the beginning of the fight, you have to go to the enemy fleet, reduce the sails of at least one enemy ship (preferably the biggest one) without being sunk or dismasted. Keep them tagged too if you don't have "control". But this made, you have to go to sides unless you put trouble in your friendly line. Many such videos on my YouTube channel. Up to last patches, I was able to do some job, even in a Rattlesnake vs third rates fleet. Six pounders were giving hull hits when properly aimed. The role of light ships was obviously not the first role, but it was existing, and it was fun. If new players, in small ships, have no role, no impact and so, no rewards, why should they stay in this game? You know mate: a properly handled Requin/Niagara can kill almost anything up to 2nd rates (granted a relevant skill gap: no skill gap - no way a smaller ship could kill a bigger one. Period) even in different ways. The problem is not small ships per se, but that they require in the end more skill (fast thinking and acting) and experience (real NA "skill") than bigger ones. And NO WAY a new player can hope to use a ligher ship vs a bigger one handled by someone with some experience. The problem in the end is the steep learning curve of the game. That's a good part too. Still it'll end being a terrible barrier for newcomers (as it has been always). Only solution IMHO is making gear bonuses smaller (so less gap between rich/vet poor/casuals) and reduced repairs (to make 1v3+ battles not difficult but simply deadly - as they should be). 3
Aquillas Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 10 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said: And NO WAY a new player can hope to use a ligher ship vs a bigger one handled by someone with some experience. Agreed for 1v1. But a new player in a veteran fleet should be able to do "something", and get rewarded for this. 1
Licinio Chiavari Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 4 hours ago, Aquillas said: Agreed for 1v1. But a new player in a veteran fleet should be able to do "something", and get rewarded for this. The whole problem lies on reward system. You get more reward boarding a t.brig bot on a Wasa in 3 mins combat... than being sunk in a Trinco v. Trinco 1hr long hard fought battle. 😎 And back to the example: no way an unrated ship even (relatively) skillfully handled (by a n00b) can do something relevant among SoL fleets handled by vets.
mikawa Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 The problem itself has its root not in the vets vs newbies problem. It would be very strange if a vet player with 1000+ hours would not have any advantage over a newbie. The problem are powerships with 4 bonuses and godlike upgrades that a normal player could not achieve. These ships give the vets even more power and the result is pure frustration because you simply can't win against these ships. Many videos and my own experience prove this. So you feel betrayed by the game, betrayed by the mechanics. It's like you give exactly one single player in cs go an AK with double fire rate, double precision and double damage. Then wonder why this player will be global elite in 5 weeks? 4
Oli Garchy Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, mikawa said: The problem itself has its root not in the vets vs newbies problem. It would be very strange if a vet player with 1000+ hours would not have any advantage over a newbie. The problem are powerships with 4 bonuses and godlike upgrades that a normal player could not achieve. These ships give the vets even more power and the result is pure frustration because you simply can't win against these ships. Many videos and my own experience prove this. So you feel betrayed by the game, betrayed by the mechanics. It's like you give exactly one single player in cs go an AK with double fire rate, double precision and double damage. Then wonder why this player will be global elite in 5 weeks? You might think that things need a tune
Cetric de Cornusiac Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 15 hours ago, mikawa said: The problem are powerships with 4 bonuses and godlike upgrades that a normal player could not achieve. Personally I think the effects of boni and upgrades are grossly overrated in the debate. After all, each upgrade has just a few percents in improvement, mostly in just one category. True, you can focus on one category by combining upgrades dealing with just that category, but there are known upper limits. My counter prove would be, any 'pro' gamer in NA can win in a standard unmodded ship against a newbie in a "powership" with all advantages. In the sum, it is still the captain who wins not the boat.
Angus MacDuff Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 18 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said: In the sum, it is still the captain who wins not the boat. When two captains are of relatively equal skill, it is most definitely the quality of the ship that is decisive. A small advantage in equipment is a good thing but with the bonus and mod system we have now, the difference is huge. .50 cal Barrett against a .22 cal rimshot. Sure, the snipers are equally skilled.... 2
van Veen Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said: Personally I think the effects of boni and upgrades are grossly overrated in the debate. After all, each upgrade has just a few percents in improvement, mostly in just one category. True, you can focus on one category by combining upgrades dealing with just that category, but there are known upper limits. Please check the facts. You might need to revert your conclusion as well. Port bonus alone gives 10, 15, 20% in some categories, plus mods, plus skillbooks. Edited June 4, 2019 by van Veen
Tom Farseer Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 16 hours ago, mikawa said: The problem itself has its root not in the vets vs newbies problem. It would be very strange if a vet player with 1000+ hours would not have any advantage over a newbie. The problem are powerships with 4 bonuses and godlike upgrades that a normal player could not achieve. These ships give the vets even more power and the result is pure frustration because you simply can't win against these ships. Many videos and my own experience prove this. So you feel betrayed by the game, betrayed by the mechanics. It's like you give exactly one single player in cs go an AK with double fire rate, double precision and double damage. Then wonder why this player will be global elite in 5 weeks? You are correct in that all boni, be they from permanent upgrades, knowledge books or port boni need a strong hit with the good old nerfhammer. But I have to add that it is not really the vet vs. newbies cases where I have seen the most complaints about "uber-gear". Usually it is the "vets-who-have-learned-nothing-in-a-thousand-hours-because-they-only-take-the-easy-fights vs vets who think and challenge themselves regularly" fights where the losing side (guess which one that is) starts whingeing about their enemy having OP ships. Or in case of the winner being russian/ukranian/streamer getting developer-sanctioned hacks Just my perspective though...
Jan van Santen Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, van Veen said: Please check the facts. You might need to revert your conclusion as well. Port bonus alone gives 10, 15, 20% in some categories, plus mods, plus skillbooks. Depends on server... On PvE we cant just pick port boni as we want them. We get a random combo on a mostly (built from crapwood) ship (and thats called elite) Eg yesterday i got a 4/5 bermuda/crewspace "elite" wasa. To make that ship even equal to a solid 3/5 lo/wo crafted one, it requires port bonuses... Next issue: (mentioned a few times already, but never answered by devs): we never get crew bonus on the elites, thus we lack the repair bonus to make up for the crapwood combos.... The problem is: if the upgrade/book/port bonus system is tweaked according to PvP requirements alone, PvE again draws the short straw.. Edited June 4, 2019 by Jan van Santen 2
van Veen Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jan van Santen said: Depends on server... On PvE we cant just pick port boni as we want them. We get a random combo on a mostly (built from crapwood) ship (and thats called elite) Eg yesterday i got a 4/5 bermuda/crewspace "elite" wasa. To make that ship even equal to a solid 3/5 lo/wo crafted one, it requires port bonuses... Next issue: (mentioned a few times already, but never answered by devs): we never get crew bonus on the elites, thus we lack the repair bonus to make up for the crapwood combos.... The problem is: if the upgrade/book/port bonus system is tweaked according to PvP requirements alone, PvE again draws the short straw.. On PVE server, super powerful ships cannot be used against other players. On PVP server, this is a critical inbalance. That's the issue here. @Cetric was specifically referring to a PvP situation in his post. Don't get me wrong. This is not an anti PVE server rant. I'd love to see PVE server having the same opportunities as PVP server. But you can't kill players with inbalanced ships on PVE, so it's less critical there. Edited June 4, 2019 by van Veen 1
Sir Texas Sir Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 21 minutes ago, Jan van Santen said: Depends on server... On PvE we cant just pick port boni as we want them. We get a random combo on a mostly (built from crapwood) ship (and thats called elite) Eg yesterday i got a 4/5 bermuda/crewspace "elite" wasa. To make that ship even equal to a solid 3/5 lo/wo crafted one, it requires port bonuses... Next issue: (mentioned a few times already, but never answered by devs): we never get crew bonus on the elites, thus we lack the repair bonus to make up for the crapwood combos.... The problem is: if the upgrade/book/port bonus system is tweaked according to PvP requirements alone, PvE again draws the short straw.. Other than Elite's which are a very small part of the OW, the rest of the AI are the same ones we all been fighting before port bonus so why do you need Port Bonuses? The only people that have them on PvP is other players not AI. If you where fighting other players than I see why you need them, but you don't have PvP and RvR. I suggested doing map wipes every three months and letting ya'll do PB's against AI and captured ports and owning them until the next reset but got so much back lash from PvE guys that want to use all the ports no matter nation of owner. To many of your guys want all the cake and do nothing for it.
Jan van Santen Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said: Other than Elite's which are a very small part of the OW, the rest of the AI are the same ones we all been fighting before port bonus so why do you need Port Bonuses? I thought I made that clear (several times already ?) The only chance to get a decent ship on PvE server now that crafting was killed is the hunt for an rng quality elite.... Thats what every1 on PvE server was busy with the last days b4 the unneccessary wipe was announced. And guess what ? Catching an elite is a lot easier if you sail an elite already. So thats what players do now: grind their way up thru rng elites.... 2
Sir Texas Sir Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Jan van Santen said: I thought I made that clear (several times already ?) The only chance to get a decent ship on PvE server now that crafting was killed is the hunt for an rng quality elite.... Thats what every1 on PvE server was busy with the last days b4 the unneccessary wipe was announced. And guess what ? Catching an elite is a lot easier if you sail an elite already. So thats what players do now: grind their way up thru rng elites.... How exactly has crafting been killed? A good ship crafted still gets the job done than gettting a Fir/WO ELITE ship of a build of RNG....I'm sorry I just don't get this my set that ELITE RNG AI ships is better than a crafted ship you can build the way you want to build it. Perks or not all ships have to follow the max stats for the game. You can't get more than 30% HP's either way. All the port bonus did was make a Oak/Oak ship basicly same as an old crafted Wo/Wo ship (just going off Hull 4 stat only). The rest of the stuff could be cover easily with mods.
Jan van Santen Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said: How exactly has crafting been killed? A good ship crafted still gets the job done than gettting a Fir/WO ELITE ship of a build of RNG... Well, wasn't that exactly what I posted ? you try to get a better than fir/whatever elite ! Besides: even a halfarsed elite with port boni is better than the best crafteable lo/wo , do you really need screenshots ? I thought the table of port booni already made that sufficiently clear.... Edited June 4, 2019 by Jan van Santen 1
Angus MacDuff Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said: All the port bonus did was make a Oak/Oak ship basicly same as an old crafted Wo/Wo ship (just going off Hull 4 stat only). The rest of the stuff could be cover easily with mods It also makes a LO/WO ship into an invincible tank. Throw Cartagena on it and it is ridiculous. I can see why they want that over on PVE. What we are failing to remember is that Devs will be nerfing bonuses and mods before release. I'll be interested to see what we end up with. 2
Sir Texas Sir Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 15 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said: It also makes a LO/WO ship into an invincible tank. Throw Cartagena on it and it is ridiculous. I can see why they want that over on PVE. What we are failing to remember is that Devs will be nerfing bonuses and mods before release. I'll be interested to see what we end up with. Even with port bonus you are still limited to the caps in each group, 30% cap for AR and HP is still 30% cap. You can reach these same caps with mods too, the port bonus and only if you have them set at 4 and you can't have all at 4's (or won't be able to with future port changes). Port bonus don't bypass caps for stats though. So yes you can have a Old Gold Ship with better stats then an average blue port bonus (not expecting every one to have max 4 port in all groups).
Jan van Santen Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said: I'll be interested to see what we end up with. Pay more dlc to keep the servers running for someone's hobby (and to be balanced accordingly ?)
Teutonic Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 27 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said: It also makes a LO/WO ship into an invincible tank. Throw Cartagena on it and it is ridiculous. I can see why they want that over on PVE. What we are failing to remember is that Devs will be nerfing bonuses and mods before release. I'll be interested to see what we end up with. 8 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said: Even with port bonus you are still limited to the caps in each group, 30% cap for AR and HP is still 30% cap. You can reach these same caps with mods too, the port bonus and only if you have them set at 4 and you can't have all at 4's (or won't be able to with future port changes). Port bonus don't bypass caps for stats though. So yes you can have a Old Gold Ship with better stats then an average blue port bonus (not expecting every one to have max 4 port in all groups). in some cases the "cap" actually doesn't beat someone with max thickness - that's a problem :P. It's also a problem because someone maxing Thickness versus someone maxing penetration - there isn't a big contest in who is winning due to thickness reducing damage and the chances you get penetrated. whereas the player who maxes out on penetration still has to make sure they get the right angles. so yeah - in many cases I hope the "OP" mods that we know of are reduce by up to 50% in effectiveness. On the other hand, there are a shit ton of mods and books that are practically useless that should be getting some love. 1
Jan van Santen Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said: So yes you can have a Old Gold Ship with better stats then an average blue port bonus (not expecting every one to have max 4 port in all groups). Only that during the last months it's extremely unlikely to get gold ships on PvE server at all...And that exactly is the reason why PvE is strongly against a ship wipe: We are extremely unlikely to replace whats wiped. I've (solo) crafted about 40 LO during the last 3 months: Result: just 1 4/5 , I know of some other crafter who did 150 LO's and got 3-4 4/5 and no 5/5. On the other hand: near half of the elite notes turn into 4/5 ships. So what you actually have to compare on PvE server is a 3/5 lo/wo crafted LO against a 4/5 halfarsed woods elite LO with 3 or 4 port boni. Guess which one wins (by far) ? Edited June 4, 2019 by Jan van Santen 4
Sir Texas Sir Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Jan van Santen said: Only that during the last months it's extremely unlikely to get gold ships on PvE server at all...And that exactly is the reason why PvE is strongly against a ship wipe: We are extremely unlikely to replace whats wiped. I've (solo) crafted about 40 LO during the last 3 months: Result: just 1 4/5 , I know of some other crafter who did 150 LO's and got 3-4 4/5 and no 5/5. On the other hand: near half of the elite notes turn into 4/5 ships. So what you actually have to compare on PvE server is a 3/5 lo/wo crafted LO against a 4/5 halfarsed woods elite LO with 3 or 4 port boni. Guess which one wins (by far) ? Gold ships are suppose to be rare. I only crafted 2 out of prob a 1K ships I have crafted with maybe a dozen purple ships. So you shouldn't expect them every time. I swear all I hear ya'll do is cry instead of trying to come up with solutions. Again why are you acting like every ship you fight is an ELITE? They are rare, they are suppose to be tuff, but they aren't every ship. How about this? Make a suggestion that the ports are randomly given investments, kinda like we had the old port perks, but it's perm for ya'll since you can't capture ports and invest in them. You might not get a port with all 4's, but you might get a port that specialize in speed builds while anther in Hulll builds while maybe another reloads. 18 minutes ago, Teutonic said: so yeah - in many cases I hope the "OP" mods that we know of are reduce by up to 50% in effectiveness. On the other hand, there are a shit ton of mods and books that are practically useless that should be getting some love. That the thing, they are comparing the stats to current mods and Port Bonus, we don't know what the nerf is going to look like. It might not be any better than a good crafted ship with certain mods. Also it's going to take a long time for folks to get ports to mostly 3/4's like we did in weeks with all our goods stocked up. With the wipe we wont' have all that resources ready on hand to have an instant 3/4 port in a week or two.
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