Small group/clan content: Port Raids + Poll

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

7 minutes ago, Ptigibus said:

And about 10-15% of the resource loss or investment loss, can you be more specific? 

I don't understand why you quoted me with that question.

[admin]

1 hour ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

 

On the contrary, I think the exact opposite is the case, the other option favours large clans that have many people on immediately and able to counter quickly

Do not think so
The smaller the engagement the higher is the importance of skill, knowledge and fleet composition. If raid is for next day you can provide screens + best players for 5v5. You either do not get to the raid event or lose against top pros. 

If raid is for today, not only small clan can find the defender distracted, but also sneak in without the ability to react (as defenders will have to find you and catch you to take the loot back)

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

Do not think so
The smaller the engagement the higher is the importance of skill, knowledge and fleet composition. If raid is for next day you can provide screens + best players for 5v5. You either do not get to the raid event or lose against top pros. 

If raid is for today, not only small clan can find the defender distracted, but also sneak in without the ability to react (as defenders will have to find you and catch you to take the loot back)

please skimread through my suggestion thanks!

Edited May 7, 2019 by Guest

[Angus MacDuff]

The attackers will ALWAYS win.  5 elite players in elite ships, fully organised can pick and choose who to attack and even to some extent when.  There are a cople of Clans that will NEVER be raided and the rest will be constant victims.  Raids will be a good thing perhaps, but these two options will punish certain clans over and over.

[Teutonic]

Will they be limited to ships?

I think raids should be exclusively 5th rates or 4th rates.

[Bragan Benigaris]

14 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

The attackers will ALWAYS win. 

I'm not sure about this - as attacker you have an interesting tactical problem: For the battle with the Elite AI you want to have LO/WO or at least T/WO battle ships, to get away you want Fir/Fir speed ships. Obviously you can't have both in one, so you either are on disadvantage for one of the two parts,  have to use allround ships or switch the loot on the flight to other supporting players. Either way would create opportunities for the defender to intercept.

[Bragan Benigaris]

9 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Will they be limited to ships?

I think raids should be exclusively 5th rates or 4th rates.

Well, make it depending on target port respectively the BR, for example:

Shallow port: max 6th rates

Regular port: max 5th rates

County Capitol: max 4th rates

Don't restrict the bottomline, maybe the attacker wants to mix 1x tlynx (for the loot) with a 5th rate raiding force

 

 

[Severus Snape]

Option B sounds better, but I would suggest that once battle starts the enemy has x amount of time to fill and if not the NPCs spawn.   What will happen though is no one will try to intercept and there will be 20 people outside waiting to gank the raiders and get their loot.  

[Severus Snape]

1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

Option B would be the best if it wasnt for the NPCs.

No reason why it can’t be one or the other.

 

[MassimoSud]

Raids? Yes! Flags? Yes, but only for pvp! Well 5 attackers, choice of ships free, with a maximum Br set at 3000. The defender can join with a 20% more br (or other percentage) to balance the surprise/organization effect.

Inside a single circle far from the forts in which to stay for a certain time, with more ships than the defender. Thus the raid is successful and the resources that the port produces randomly can be raided.

The winner leaves the raid in the nearest friendly/neutral port (no revenge).

The clan that owns the port pays the necessary reald for the extraction of resources + 15% (work hours and avoid exploits).

I don't like the idea that VMs doubloons and combat medal are looted.

[Teutonic]

2 minutes ago, rediii said:

just limit it to BR not to ships. Because you sail there and back there is a bigger variety of ships anyway. Maybe you just take what you have at a port right now.

 

3-4k BR limit for attacker, 5k-6k BR limit for defender

3-4k? For a 5 man group? Are you nuts?

Back to 1st rates again....

Can we have 1 good thing not hello kittyed up by having to have lineships.

Hard limit - 5th rates. No br needed.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Teutonic

[Bragan Benigaris]

On contraire to the opinion of the most reactions here i want to argue for the NPCs. It may be a too big challenge for the raider, to defeat a defending player force AND avoid to be intercepted ("ganked") by the waiting coast guard. If you make the 5:5 battle a player battle, there will be crossed swords on the water and every defender will know, where he has to wait. Chances to escape for a small raider group: Zero - only big clans will wipe out every defender...

The AI battle in concept B is the time frame the defender get to power his patrols up and create a search force. He has the numbers, and can use overwhelming force, but he doesn't know, where in the vicinity of the raided port the raiders will appear. It's a raid and a hunt, not a regular battle after all.

Maybe make the destination port for the loot public, so the defending forces can try to intercept there instead of around the raided port - or on both places

[van der Clam]

Personally, I'd like to see Raids be even easier to take, but harder to accomplish.

Go to Missions,  in there should be Econ, Battle, Conquest, under Conquest should be Missions for surrounding Regional Capitals as is, AND ALL Ports in those regions that are listed as
"Port Name - Raid". So if I have Pampatar then I would see in Conquest:

• La Blanquilla - Raid
• La Orchilla - Raid
• La Tortuga - Raid
• Macanao - Raid
• Pampatar
• Pampatar - Raid

I then select which port I want to raid

• The map shows an X like for Hostility Missions
• I go there to battle AI ships that enemy players built and gave to Admiralty to guard their selected port
• If enemy players built no ships for that port then the attacker battles low rate AI 7th - 4th rates.....maybe 6-8 of them
• The battle swords show in OW so anyone from any nation can see and join either side, as is currently
• Once the Raid has reached 25% then Clerk would make the announcement like it does for hostiltiy (kind of like IRL time for a ship to escape and get to another port to announce a raid is happening)

When the battle is over

• We have 24 hours to freely enter and exit port with traders or warships taking up to 75% of all production in that port, AI production and player production
• If no player buildings exist in there then we get nothing from players, but we do still get 75% from whatever that port produces
• Any Forts or Towers built there loses whatever durability we destroy of it. If we don't destroy the fort then the fort remains 100% but does not attack us for the next 24 hours, because we have successfully raided it
• Once the 24 hours is up the port will return to normal for the defending nation with a 24 or 48 hour cooldown.

I think this would provide great PvP during the Raid and for the next 48 24 hours as the defending nation could attempt blockades, as could the attacking nation to guarantee raiding safety.

Edited May 7, 2019 by van der Decken

[Bragan Benigaris]

12 minutes ago, MassimoSud said:

Raids? Yes! Flags? Yes, but only for pvp! Well 5 attackers, choice of ships free, with a maximum Br set at 3000. The defender can join with a 20% more br (or other percentage) to balance the surprise/organization effect.

Inside a single circle far from the forts in which to stay for a certain time, with more ships than the defender. Thus the raid is successful and the resources that the port produces randomly can be raided.

The winner leaves the raid in the nearest friendly/neutral port (no revenge).

The clan that owns the port pays the necessary reald for the extraction of resources + 15% (work hours and avoid exploits).

I don't like the idea that VMs doubloons and combat medal are looted.

That's old wine in new skins - a reduced or mini port battle with flags instead of hostility.

 

[MassimoSud]

7 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

3-4k? For a 5 man group? Are you nuts?

Back to 1st rates again....

Can we have 1 good thing not hello kittyed up by having to have lineships.

Hard limit - 5th rates. No br needed.

Why do we have to have a fixed br? We must provide a maximum br. To the defender a percentage more on the br of the attacker (as I said in my post). Thus the choice of ships is left to the attacker.

[Aquillas]

3 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Or you can make it pvp inside the instance if you give the defenders 10-15mins joining timer. When it expires, bots appears.

This kind of mechanic would be too easily exploited by alts.

Five players attack a port. Five alts take the place to remove defense. Done.

 Something must be found to prevent this exploit. For instance,  defenders must belong to the list of friendly clans, or in the list of the friendly players (to be implemented) of the clan owning the port.

Edit: I voted yes (for more content) and B (for more variety in the contents).

Edited May 7, 2019 by Aquillas

[Bragan Benigaris]

7 minutes ago, rediii said:

Why does it have to be a 5 man group? We have BR limits already why not use them?

Why not, but make the BR limits lower: 1.000 or max 1.200 BR for the raider

Raiding business is small ship business, but if you insist on your lone 1st rate 😜

[huliotkd]

4 hours ago, admin said:

Captains 
Lets discuss raids (which we plan to work on for next patch or first patch after release)

There are two options which we wanted to discuss with you, but first what is a raid.

Raid is an attack on a port which does not take control of the town but just robs the port owner (not the owner, but what port sells...res or trading goods - player have already too many problems you created with fool prices of building,resources, investment ecc ecc ) for certain resource. Raid can happen during the defense timer (nope, raid must happens everytime or it isn't a raid). 

We need to hear your opinions on the best implementation

• A - Raid like port battle - happening tomorrow (NO, player base has already problems to fill a PB , more if they have to fill also raids - raids same day you decide to raid)
  • Mechanics
    • You take a raid mission on the enemy port - the same way port battles are set up (but instead of 10v10 it will be 5v5) NO
    • After you killed the designated targets - the Raid will be set up for the next day NO
    • Next day battle will be set up for 5v5 port battle BR limit - under 1000 BR for Deep port , under 500 for shallow
    • You have to capture circles and if enemy players do not arrive you will have no opposition NO circles - you must reach shore, set sail to 0 on the docks, and you have a counter of 1 min to loot what you can find in the shop, put it on your trader in fleet (if you have) and go away at a certain distance from the land while Port Defences are firing at you...or maybe you have to put in your 1000 BR a mortar brig to deactivate (destrucion is only for PB) the forts/tower
    • After you win the battle you get rewards in form of 10% of all enemy investments (number for illustration purposes only)  NO
    • Benefits NO
      • Clear intent declaration and battle the next day
      • Defenders do not have to scramble and can arrive in time
      • Benefits skilled players as 5v5 greatly increases skill ceiling for the battle, less chance to succeed for average small groups/clans
      • everyone can try and have to escape before defenders arrive
• B - Raid like placing a flag - happening today  NO   Raid like clicking on ''enter port'' button when you are at a certain distance from port entry (like PB joining circle, for raid the attackers can enter just out of ''defenders'' circle. ) but you will click on ''Raid Port'' button - an announce goes in Global and defenders Nation Chat
  • Mechanics
    • Part 1NO
      • You take a mission (flag) in certain county capital
      • You place the flag near the raided port (placement takes some time) generating a mission (or just take a mission which generates battle entry point
      • Message that flag is being placed or mission was taken is sent to server
    • Part 2 NO - you will fight what defenders decide to assign to ports...player can cap 5th rates from AI and bring back to port, assign to port and they will automatically spawn if the port is raided - players can come and fill the remaining BR until limit (tactic will be assign some AI leaving space for some player to join) - ports will use Defences investment and the destroyed defences are only ''deactivated'' so they will stay for the future PB (this will prevent player raiding a port 3485723987639876398 destroying everythiong then setting PB then fighting an un-defended Port)
      • You fight with the elite NPCs in the battle NO/YES - players can assign only 1 Elite NPC to port defence if they cap in OW and bring it back to port docks
      • You take their special loot - raid documents and bring them to the designated county capital NO - you can loot only what port sells (also SELL contract set by players)
    • Part 3 Spoils NO
      • Once you deliver the special loot you receive the following rewards
        • 10% of all port investments in that port (numbers for illustration purposes only)
        • Enemy loses 15% of the port investments in that port ABSOLUTELY NO - big Clans/nation can raid everyday before a loser side can manage to recover - again , you will destroy the remaining playerbase....not playing in Russian nation obiously
    • Loot is capturable and people who take it from you can YES - Raiders must be FAST...Raid is a fast action, enter, fight bot until you reach the shore/docks, resist incoming fire, loot what you can/want , set sail to open sea, escape from ''Raid Battle'' , run in OW away from incoming defenders, reach a safe port with your resources - maybe can generate the best PVP action in server
      • deliver the loot themselves NO
      • or destroy it (cancelling the raided status) NO
      • Loot will be on the timer like deadman chest to avoid sitting out things in port or in battles NO
  • Benefits
    • You want to play now, your friends want to play now - you can't wait until tomorrow YES
    • Defenders could be distracted elsewhere giving a small clan a real option to take something valuable YES
    • Raid also can provide content to other players (trying to steal your loot) YES
    • Benefits the smaller attacker as defenders have to scramble from other things to try to find you in mission or intercept you after it YES/NO

After both cases

Overall the second option is better for the attacker, the first option is better for the defender.

P.S.

all this mechanic requires that :

• the PBs are extended to at least 1 per week and no longer 1 every 2 days/1day (if defended)
• every ports has new ship dock space, to not fill always the player ones - once assigned, it cannot be withdrawn (preventing parking player ships in ports)
• mortar brig range of fire must be reduced (useful also for PB with new Defence power and costs...a Fort's resources costs is too high to let recover after a 1st PB and 2 day later another one with also a 20k BR battle with Port Bonus 1st rates defendind their mortar inside....only stronger nation can fill those requirements and the game will die as it is going now) - a correct range is the same of 42pdr long of the forts if not lower...attackers have to cover mortar with their ship not only with impossible distance - mortar is intended to ''fly over'' walls not fo fire from farther away.
• RAID can be done only 1 at day for each port and only for 5 port for each nation - it can be raised if it is too hard to raid a port - or lowered if too easy.
• RAID CAN BE DONE ONLY UNTIL 4TH RATE!!!! NO 3RD, BELLONA,WASA ECC ECC NOR OCEAN

RULES MUST BE CLEAR - any action by players other than as described must be punished. Old game mechanics, old rules, old permissions, devs distractions, exploit use or any other tricks or exploits should not be used. raids must only work in the way it was described here...

as it should have also been for the frontlines

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by huliotkd

[Bragan Benigaris]

1 minute ago, Aquillas said:

This kind of mechanic would be too easily exploited by alts.

Five players attack a port. Five alts take the place to remove defense. Done.

 Something must be found to prevent this exploit. For instance,  defenders must belong to the list of friendly clans, or in the list of the friendly players (to be implemented) of the clan owning the port.

Or let it be the AI like in admins proposal - the battle against the AI is only the placeholder for the landing boats and raiding parties. Depending on the "Elite AI" it will take some time to defeat one, several or all of this AI ships - time for the defender to gather his (unlimited) forces and organize his patrols. The pvp AFTER the raid is the interesting part...

If you make the raid itself a pvp battle, it would be nothing else than a mini port battle with no chance to escape for the raider. And a tp after this battle would be lame imho.

[MassimoSud]

8 minutes ago, Bragan Benigaris said:

That's old wine in new skins - a reduced or mini port battle with flags instead of hostility.

 

Sorry I can not understand what you are looking for?

Raids must be an opportunity for the small clan with good pvp quality, to them the choice of ships with which to attach, to the defender a small advantage to balance the surprise / organization.

Maybe you can be a more putposefull in your next post!

[Bragan Benigaris]

1 minute ago, MassimoSud said:

Sorry I can not understand what you are looking for?

Raids must be an opportunity for the small clan with good pvp quality, to them the choice of ships with which to attach, to the defender a small advantage to balance the surprise / organization.

Maybe you can be a more putposefull in your next post!

Sorry for my perhaps too short or cryptic response 🙂

If i understand correct, you proposed to use the flag mechanism to set up a 5:5 battle and if the attacker is successful, he get the loot and is teleported home. In my understanding that's the setup of the legacy port battles with reduced numbers and flag instead  of hostility. Clear, simple and probably working, the setup of a 5:5 duel battle in a nutshell.

But i for myself long for a different, more dynamic raiding mechanism and this includes for example the hunt after the raid. Raiding should be different from the rather strict and sometimes orchestrated 25:25 setup of an usual port battle, more like asymmetric warfare... But that's only my humble opinion and i didn't want to offend you 🙂

[Manbot]

i think raids can not be next day affairs- it must be spontaneous and chaotic especially for the defenders- a see you tomorrow kinda raid isnt a fun raid. 

i think the most important thing is what loot the raider received and insuring it isnt exploited to reduce a port to nothing.

[Guest]

I like A but only with 1 shrinking circle 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, rediii said:

Then less BR but it should be a BR limit, not a playerlimit.

Also if you limit it on 5th rates you end up with indef spam which isnt much better.

 

Limit BR and people will make fleets according to how many people want to join.

Indef is 4th rate

[RKY]

I think limit to 4th rate + a lower br for the attacker be nice (like 1/5 less BR) would be nice