RNG-permits & pay-to-participate RvR

[Anolytic]

49 minutes ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan

Thanks!

However Niagara being rare is still going to be a huge problem. It is the best overall non--DLC counter to both Hercules AND Le Requin in both Shallow and Deep Water PBs. Prince de Neufchatel would be a better rare ship. Yet I do not like that either (and Prince need to be able to go in Deep Water Port Battles again btw - again as an alternative to Le Requin).

While I have some objections to any rare Lineships (1st and 2nd rates) because of limiting tactical choices in PBs, both Santisima and Christian with the current balance of BR and HP can still work while rare, because they would not make up more than a couple of ships in any individual fleet anyway. Endymion would also still be very possible to use in RVR just as before even if it is rare. 

But, Niagara is such an important RvR-ship. And such an important competitor to the DLC-ships. It absolutely must not be rare. Ask @Imperator1 how many Hercules and Le Requin he sank in the patrol zone (before the expansion of shallows to include Surprise etc.)

Just a very few ships should be rare, and Niagara should not be on that list. If it absolutely has to be RNG-drop, then the RNG-chance for Niagara permit has to be very high.

37 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

Take the Herc vs Surprise example from @Anolytic's post:
The natural non-permit alternative I see is the Cerberus. Directly comparing the base stats of each ship shows that while generally lacking in firepower, the Cerberus is remarkably similar to the Hercules in most aspects. Yet it seems to be out of the question for a lot of people. I often set up preliminary ship lists for GBs portbattles and am guilty of forgetting those ships myself. Old habits, I guess...

Cerberus is a GREAT ship that gets far too little love. I absolutely consider it for all shallow PBs and even deep PBs. The main reason I haven't used them in my setups recently is that not a lot of people currently sail it regularly. The Cerberus is a good alternative to both Pandora and Hercules.

Currently most people going to PBs do have the Hercules and prefer using it over Cerberus, and everybody has the Pandora. But after release I would have no problem substituting Cerberus for Pandora/Hercules in my setups to accommodate any player who did not have the Pandora unlocked.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Anolytic

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Anolytic said:

While I have some objections to any rare Lineships (1st and 2nd rates) because of limiting tactical choices in PBs, both Santisima and Christian with the current balance of BR and HP can still work while rare, because they would not make up more than a couple of ships in any individual fleet anyway. Endymion would also still be very possible to use in RVR just as before even if it is rare. 

I believe that singling out specific line ships to be rare is a basic error.  They should all be equally attainable (and rare) or we will see people hoarding the special ones.  1st rates should certainly be more rare than 2nd, etc.  I think that the initial move to make 1st rates rare was a good one and can be kept on.  The bottom line to be considered however, is that many players (not me!) consider sailing a 1st rate to be the highest achievement in the game.  Crazy, I know, but its out there.

[Hawkwood]

11 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

But, Niagara is such an important RvR-ship. And such an important competitor to the DLC-ships. It absolutely must not be rare

Surprise will do. Don´t push it now, enjoy your small "victory".

[Sir Texas Sir]

55 minutes ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan
 

The other week or two I was playing and over a few days I lost several ships:  Indianman, L'Ocean, Herc, LRQ, Reno, USS United States.  I got one assisst in all those fights but no CM's.  I only have a few Victory Marks from the short time I defended a port.  Of these ships I was only able to replace the trade ship and the DLC since.  USS US I need 5 VM's and it's only been 3 weeks since that port battle I defeded in so I only have three (maybe 4 this week).  The L'Ocean I need CM's, well I been workign long hours so don't have a lot of time so haven't been in crap for PvP so no CM's earned and I didn't get crap for my one assist cause there was to many in that battle.  So how am I to repalce my ships?  If I was some casuals and didn't have 120 ships saved up between 5 accounts I would be stuck to only playing the Trade Ship and Two DCL (well Pandora now  with them).   Cause loosing 5 ships in 2 days is prob half most folks fleets.    And we haven't even gotten into the wood types. Yes I can make them all of Fir, Oak and such (can get my hands on WO and LO if I want).   What pisses me off is I can't replace the reno to keep fighting with a ship I have completely unlocked. Instead I have to go make a Surprise and start unlocking it instead of using the ship I like better.

45 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Niagara would be the Queen of the 6th rates if that damned Req was made a 5th.  Solo PVP zone for 6th rates would be more fun.

Wel that is if you could actually craft one....can't even craft Reno's.....but the LRQ should of been made a 5th rate a long time ago with the Herc and Pandora which all have like crew.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Sir Texas Sir

[Capitalism]

Nice post @Anolytic. This is an issue that needs to be addressed prior to release otherwise the game is truly down the rabbit hole. 

[Angus MacDuff]

2 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

What pisses me off is I can't replace the reno to keep fighting with a ship I have completely unlocked. Instead I have to go make a Surprise and start unlocking it instead of using the ship I like better.

The unlocking business is a temporary issue because of the looming wipe.  I went out and capped a couple of AI Surprises, (cause I had crafted a beauty) and thought i'd unlock the slots on the trashy ones.  I just can't get motivated to do it though, because they will all be gone.  It's a painful, but necessary process that we are in the middle of now. 

[Tom Farseer]

1 minute ago, Angus MacDuff said:

The unlocking business is a temporary issue because of the looming wipe.  I went out and capped a couple of AI Surprises, (cause I had crafted a beauty) and thought i'd unlock the slots on the trashy ones.  I just can't get motivated to do it though, because they will all be gone.  It's a painful, but necessary process that we are in the middle of now. 

Did I miss an update somewhere? Ship-specific XP now to be wiped as well?

Edited April 16, 2019 by Tom Farseer

[Angus MacDuff]

Just now, Tom Farseer said:

Did I miss an update somewhere? Ship-specific XP now to be wiped as well?

We're keeping knowledge, but I just assumed that slots would be zero'd with the ship wipes.  I could be wrong I guess.

[Meraun]

2 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

Did I miss an update somewhere? Ship-specific XP now to be wiped as well?

As far was we know buy now, we just keep the Books. But  last statement was its under review, waht exactly will be wiped

[Sir Texas Sir]

10 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

The unlocking business is a temporary issue because of the looming wipe.  I went out and capped a couple of AI Surprises, (cause I had crafted a beauty) and thought i'd unlock the slots on the trashy ones.  I just can't get motivated to do it though, because they will all be gone.  It's a painful, but necessary process that we are in the middle of now. 

But even after the wipe, why do I have to switch from a ship I like playing to one that is not locked behind secret drops on magical chest that is so random I prob got a better chance to win the lotto than to ever get a Reno permit to craft another one?  It's not like it's some super special rare ships like the Santa Cecilia or something.

Oh and I actually like the Suprise, but I have it unlocked on a diffrent char than the one that has the Reno completely unlocked.  That char I play in shallows and do solo hunting in light frigates but never unlocked the Suprise and I agree I'm not going to be unlocking any new ships until after wipe since we aren't keeping ship knowledge.  I just don't have the time right now with work keeping out of game. I'll wait until release to spend more than a few hours a couple times a week on the game right now.  To many other new games out right now to play any way.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Sir Texas Sir

[Botq]

Maybe RNG/expensive permits for SoLs but do we really need rare permits for other ships ?

Edited April 16, 2019 by o7Captain

[Tom Farseer]

10 minutes ago, Koveras said:

1 hour ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan
 

Why not make them DLC ships instead then? Or make all DLC ships available by rare permits? 

• On making them DLC ships: Because hiding the best ships of each class (which those rare ships are supposed to be) would be a rather obvious pay to win issue, don't you think?
• On making DLC ships available by rare permits: Again balancing is the important point here. DLC ships must always be balanced against free counterparts to ensure the game not going down the pay to win rabbithole. That in turn means that people who do not own the DLC will probably never grind up the combat medals to pay for those specific permits, because they have a permit-free alternative.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Tom Farseer
formatting

[HachiRoku]

1 hour ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan
 

Amen brother 

[Capitalism]

1 hour ago, admin said:

it takes many drops of rum to fill the barrel

With these little drops of rum is there any chance you could introduce the DLC and permit ships as rare NPCs, make everything below a 2nd rate capturable?  This seems like a test worth doing to see how it might affect the balance of ships in the open world, people's willingness to PvP (using captured ships would be viable, random wood/crew space DLC and pemit ships would still be less desirable than custom built, rare wood DLC/permit ships but would even the playing field somewhat) and could fit nicely with the reduced emphasis on crafting?

Having more/cheaper ships across the full range of what's available just makes sense if you want to get people out on the water fighting.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

Trincomalee lobbying group will again end victorious and get their favorite op frigate without medals and strong enough to wreck lineships ?

 

My opinion on the matter :

-Remove combat medals for permits appart rattleheavy, lgv refit, endymion, christian, bellona, constitution (remove entirely rng only permits)

-Add medals for carronades larger or equal to 32pd recipes

=> niagara, surprise, trinco, indef, as very popular ships become much more accessible, and only cost medals on their op carro setup.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Steele OooOoOOoOOOooooOOOO]

2 hours ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan
 

It is Having the goals set , Adding all those ships craftable would take away from the,we want more engagement,maybe the solution lies in XP,maybe combat medal XP is the way to go,and 2 at a time or whatever,but the Catalyst is keeping ships in the docks and on the open seas,Without set goals to achieve everyone will be an admiral with a first rate craftable ship,I think it is more about finding the Building of ingame mechanics based on the law of averages,add don't subtract.

3 hours ago, Anolytic said:

 

If DLCs are reportedly such a boost to PvP on the server because they are fast and easy to bring and to replace, why is the opposite principle now seemingly applied to all crafting of ships? Why does surprise need an extremely expensive permit, and why does the Niagara need one that only drops randomly from chests?

 

 

Worse, by far in this regard, is the Le Requin. It is a difficult ship to begin with, to replace, being so specialised to kite and contest circles. In the past there was two non-DLC counters to Le Requin in RvR. But the Prince de Neufchatel and the Niagara now have permits that are ONLY obtainable through random drops from chests.

This means that only the most hardcore PvE-players are likely to have disposable permits for the ship to use in RvR, let alone for getting the slots and experience needed to use the Niagara or Prince effectively.

T

I bought the prince permit for 7 combat Medals , My reward and Goal. 22 ship slots and one hard earned ship that sits in my Docks for later ,or until I can get another one,Cheaper would be better ,but just craftable,not rewarding for defending and fighting in the open seas.and worthless.

[DeRuyter]

4 hours ago, Anolytic said:

Thanks!

However Niagara being rare is still going to be a huge problem. It is the best overall non--DLC counter to both Hercules AND Le Requin in both Shallow and Deep Water PBs. Prince de Neufchatel would be a better rare ship. Yet I do not like that either (and Prince need to be able to go in Deep Water Port Battles again btw - again as an alternative to Le Requin).

While I have some objections to any rare Lineships (1st and 2nd rates) because of limiting tactical choices in PBs, both Santisima and Christian with the current balance of BR and HP can still work while rare, because they would not make up more than a couple of ships in any individual fleet anyway. Endymion would also still be very possible to use in RVR just as before even if it is rare. 

But, Niagara is such an important RvR-ship. And such an important competitor to the DLC-ships. It absolutely must not be rare. Ask @Imperator1 how many Hercules and Le Requin he sank in the patrol zone (before the expansion of shallows to include Surprise etc.)

Just a very few ships should be rare, and Niagara should not be on that list. If it absolutely has to be RNG-drop, then the RNG-chance for Niagara permit has to be very high.

Cerberus is a GREAT ship that gets far too little love. I absolutely consider it for all shallow PBs and even deep PBs. The main reason I haven't used them in my setups recently is that not a lot of people currently sail it regularly. The Cerberus is a good alternative to both Pandora and Hercules.

Currently most people going to PBs do have the Hercules and prefer using it over Cerberus, and everybody has the Pandora. But after release I would have no problem substituting Cerberus for Pandora/Hercules in my setups to accommodate any player who did not have the Pandora unlocked.

No reason any shallow water ship should not be able to go into deep water PB - the choice should be up to PB commanders to put what they want/need on the line up. (DLC/permit issues aside).

[Zlatkowar]

Great post once again. Thanks for taking the time to write it down and glad to see it has been noticed.

[--Privateer--]

16 hours ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan

This is a good start, but I want to make sure the RNG aspect is removed. I agree the Santi and Christian, etc could be rare, but this can be done via permit price in the admiralty store. I think time spent in the game should be rewarded rather than pure luck, specifically time spent in the OW placing one's ship in harms way (creating content). So all the permits should be purchasable in the admiralty store for Combat Metals, the prices can be adjusted to make them as rare as the Devs desire.

Edited April 17, 2019 by --Privateer--

[Oli Garchy]

with how this game works ship variety = content, limiting what ships people can use limits content. I personally dont understand limiting non DLC ships to the lucky or hardcore folk. People want to sail different ships and experiment.

[Njord]

16 hours ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive.

Thank you. I also like that you want to leave a few rare ships but please don't forget it is not only about the permits but also about the rare / expensive woods.

[--Privateer--]

50 minutes ago, Oli Garchy said:

with how this game works ship variety = content, limiting what ships people can use limits content. I personally dont understand limiting non DLC ships to the lucky or hardcore folk. People want to sail different ships and experiment.

Something maybe the Devs didn't think of. If only hardcore PVPers use a certain ship, that ship would seem OP in comparison to other ships of the same rate due to inflated numbers of kills. It could ruin any actively changing BR system.

If a bunch of noobs are sailing oak/oak Vics around and then there's very few elite pvpers sailing rare wood type Christians around, an actively changing BR system would quickly place the Vic below the Christian. Then comes a Port Battle and more Vics can be squeezed in and eventually the rare 'premium' Christian become useless.

 

[--Privateer--]

12 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

please don't forget it is not only about the permits but also about the rare / expensive woods

This is the most important thing, can't stress this enough.

 

[Ligatorswe]

17 hours ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan
 

Thanks @admin. Good to hear. The current system frustrates me. Some rare ships are ok, but PLS make all ships buyable one way or another. No ships, or perhaps only one or two special ships,  should be ships that can only be built by randomly finding permits in shipwrecks or chests. I dont care if the prize is high for the rare ships, like 100 combat marks for a Christian, but we should be able to craft them, not only find them in a shipwreck after getting 30 bottles.

(I still want to try to sail the Christian. The current system does not allow me to ever sail her.)

Edited April 17, 2019 by Ligatorswe

[van Veen]

This mess could be easily avoided by reducing the number of currencies. 4 currencies serve no purpose. 2 is more than enough!