RNG-permits & pay-to-participate RvR

[Anolytic]

Despite multiple topics about it in this forum, not enough of us realises just how bad the current crafting and currency situation is in the game. Because ships have not been wiped, and because most clans are now indifferent to RvR, the enormous hurdles now placed on crafting almost any ships is hidden.

But REDS has been recruiting new players, as well as old and returning players, in recent times. Players who in both cases do not have tons of ships stored. And while we are able to cover their need of ships from our storage, it gives us a glimpse at just how expensive it now is to produce even frigates. Because of permits. And woods.

If DLCs are reportedly such a boost to PvP on the server because they are fast and easy to bring and to replace, why is the opposite principle now seemingly applied to all crafting of ships? Why does surprise need an extremely expensive permit, and why does the Niagara need one that only drops randomly from chests?

Because Russia still organises infrequent RvR in order to get good screening- and possible PB-fights, and because almost exclusively I am the one who initiates and organises this, I get another insight into the destructive nature of the current permit situation.

One of the guiding principles I use when planning Port Battles is avoiding the use of DLC-ships in my setups. @Captain Reverse, does the same, but I do not know his specific reasons for choosing to do so except to demonstrate that it is possible. My reason, however, is that while most players in my clan and that I play with, have some or all of the DLCs, I firmly believe that the game should be playable even without DLCs, and that buying them should be an individual decision and not something that myself or my clan should push on players by making it impossible for them to participate when they do not have DLCs.

By using DLC-ships in my setups, I would ensure that anyone who does not own DLCs knows that there is that much fewer places in the Port Battles where there might be room for them.

The huge problem that has arisen for every one of the last few port battles, is that with the changes to permits, choices are severely limited. The Surprise is a good alternative to Hercules in both Deep and Shallow port battles. But with the price for the Surprise Permit, if I did not craft them and hand them out myself, most players would not be able to afford the ship for the port battle, let alone have a Surprise that they could grind to open up slots on it.

Worse, by far in this regard, is the Le Requin. It is a difficult ship to begin with, to replace, being so specialised to kite and contest circles. In the past there was two non-DLC counters to Le Requin in RvR. But the Prince de Neufchatel and the Niagara now have permits that are ONLY obtainable through random drops from chests.

This means that only the most hardcore PvE-players are likely to have disposable permits for the ship to use in RvR, let alone for getting the slots and experience needed to use the Niagara or Prince effectively.

This means that we are left with the only option of using DLC-ships. Even the Pandora will be a ship used in port battles that any players who joined the game after release will not be able to bring. 

And these are the smallest ships. The ships needing the least crew. The only roles which new recruits can be put into to participate with the rest of us, except they cannot, because they may not have bought the DLCs yet and they have no Niagara to use.

DLCs in all Port Battles might work for hardcore clans, who recruit only hardcore players, and whose players all have the DLCs. But for those clans who try to expand this game, to bring up, train, and introduce more players to the endgame content, it is not sustainable, when the first thing new players always learn is that if they do not buy DLCs they cannot participate.

This is not just «Pay2Win». This is blocking off basic aspects of this game behind a paywall. Without changes being done to permits, so that all non-DLC ships are available to all of us to choose from, and easily replaceable and craftable, for RvR. RvR will be DLC-only and normal players coming after release, who are not like the hardcore powergamers that have stuck with us throughout the ups and downs of development, will not be able to play and enjoy this otherwise great game.

 

This is not just about DLCs, and not just about Niagara and Prince de Neufchatel. For all ships of all classes, that are hidden behind a RNG-drop permit or an exorbitantly expensive permit, the side that is lucky in RNG and can afford to use the most suitable ships in the most suitable roles for a port, will have an advantage to win that port battle.

[Angus MacDuff]

4 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

Despite multiple topics about it in this forum, not enough of us realises just how bad the current crafting and currency situation is in the game. Because ships have not been wiped, and because most clans are now indifferent to RvR, the enormous hurdles now placed on crafting almost any ships is hidden.

Another good article and all true.  I highlight the above, because it's really something that @admin should consider.  Maybe he has already made the decision, but we really need a FULL wipe (or at the very least, ships and xp) soonest in order to test all of these changes without the artificial bonus of having all of our stored ships.  What we are testing now is false and cannot be considered when compiling statistics.

[shunt]

The problem will be magnified when the game is  wiped and released .... it is hard to craft ships now when we have access to reals and doubloons rng drops from misions that comes from pve grind with larger ships ..... after the final wipe we wont have reals or doubloons we will have to grind these in 6 and 7 th rates .with the new damage model ... it will be a massive grind just to be able to afford a shipyard .. never mind having to sail around and collect all ship building materials  permits and combat medals

meanwhile the dlc rattvisan owner once having completed the tutorial will find it much easier  and quicker to grind ... they will win all port battles

putting it simply if you dont buy the 4th rate dlc on release your going to get left so far behind it will take months to recover ... i predict some will find themselves so uncompetitive they will leave the game

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by shunt

[Tiedemann]

21 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Another good article and all true.  I highlight the above, because it's really something that @admin should consider.  Maybe he has already made the decision, but we really need a FULL wipe (or at the very least, ships and xp) soonest in order to test all of these changes without the artificial bonus of having all of our stored ships.  What we are testing now is false and cannot be considered when compiling statistics.

This is true, but oh shit I'm not looking forward to that. I fear player numbers will drop immediately and most ships in OW will be DLC.

[Snoopy]

I don't understand which function the permit gating serves (I can half understand - though not agree with - the special wood shortage).

The game would be ready for release without it.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Tiedemann said:

This is true, but oh shit I'm not looking forward to that. I fear player numbers will drop immediately and most ships in OW will be DLC.

Player numbers would drop because many will just decide to wait it out until release.  But this is something that really should be tested.  I agree with you that the OW would be full of DLC and that is the point.  @admin can't observe the actual statistics on crafting vs DLC while we are living in this wonderland of stored ships and RNG driven crafting.

[admin]

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan
 

[Angus MacDuff]

Just now, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. There must be good counters available.
 

Rare is okay sometimes.  Finding the sweet spot between common and too rare is the problem.  A tough job!

[shunt]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan
 

if you just left those 4 ships as permit only i think it would be a good balance

all you need to do now is reduce the amount of doubloons to purchace rare woods in clan missions .. so that the wanderingt forests actually start to wander and we will be getting somewhere

😊

[AeRoTR]

1 minute ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. There must be good counters available.
 

You really give us big pain :), and then some painkillers.

1st rates are used in PB, but please no rng permits for them. Make them even more costly but please no rng. 

6th and 5th rates make them easy craft, we wanna craft them, pvp and sink them. 

Please reduce difference between woods, give oak some love or make sabicu/cag/mah common woods again. 

[Socialism]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan
 

Not sure about the niagra.  Why would you consider this rare?  Assuming DLC ships will be entering PBs, the cerb/surprise/herc/pandora can all mount 32lb carros.  

If anything the niagra is in danger of not having a place (as is most shallow ships) in the game.  Now if you'd make shallows great again by removing 5th rates from them I'd love you long time.

#NoDLCsInPBsEver

 

[Teutonic]

While I and my clan aren't as active as REDS i second with @Anolytic.

We liked the shallows and play a lot.

But there is no alternative to the requin for port battles in the shallows without paying a heavy permit price.

The surprise costing 15 medals is insanity for shallow waters and the alternatives are cerb (lol) or dlc ships.

I've been consistant in saying that we need a ship wipe to see the permit wall troubles. 

I am absolutely fine with lineships costing permits - but they should cost victory marks (and 3rd rate being a doubloon permit).

6th rates should not be behind permits - or at the very least only 1-3 of them should be.

Shallow water 5th rates - there are 2 dlc shallow 5ths against 3 craftable ones. Of which 2 are behind a permit - with 1 being rng...

 

[Teutonic]

Again - Victory marks should be used for all 2nd and 1st rates.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Socialism said:

If anything the niagra is in danger of not having a place (as is most shallow ships) in the game.  Now if you'd make shallows great again by removing 5th rates from them I'd love you long time.

Niagara would be the Queen of the 6th rates if that damned Req was made a 5th.  Solo PVP zone for 6th rates would be more fun.

[Tom Farseer]

I mostly concur with the OP.
However, I see one recurring theme with the permit discussions lately: The fact that craftable non-permit ships are generally not accepted as an alternative at all.

Take the Herc vs Surprise example from @Anolytic's post:
The natural non-permit alternative I see is the Cerberus. Directly comparing the base stats of each ship shows that while generally lacking in firepower, the Cerberus is remarkably similar to the Hercules in most aspects. Yet it seems to be out of the question for a lot of people. I often set up preliminary ship lists for GBs portbattles and am guilty of forgetting those ships myself. Old habits, I guess...

So while permit-based ships tend to be the best possible choice for RvR-Setups, better in general than their DLC-Counterparts (except our dear Le Requiem ), they will not be completely neccessary in the long run because permit-locked ships will become so much rarer once a complete asset wipe happens. And if after some time those rare ships become more abuundant to people in powerful clans I'd say that is an earned advantage and the nature of MMO's with a competitive aspect.

The more important problem in my opinion is that of basic crafting resources and the amount of gametime that uses up (hopefully balanced by the next patch) and most importantly the fine woods problem, which Anolytic very nicely sums up in is other post:

 

Generally speaking though, I think all permits should be accessible in a non-RNG related way, but that is just personal preference...

[Meraun]

12 minutes ago, admin said:

all good points
will be done. Only rare ships (that we want to be rare like Christian, Endymion or Niagara or Santisima) should stay with permits. The permits as sinks are detrimental and counterproductive. There must be good counters freely available like Agamemnon vs Rattvisan
 

Thank god, looking forward to it

[Hawkwood]

When 50 people here on forum adress the same thing nobody reacts..Wenn Anolytic does, voila, changes applied.

Thank you for trusting us. "The others."

[Tom Farseer]

Then we better be glad, that Anolytic makes a damn good job of adressing those issues in well constructed posts

[Corona Lisa]

1 minute ago, Hawkwood said:

When 50 people here on forum adress the same thing nobody reacts..Wenn Anolytic does, voila, changes applied.

Thank you for trusting us. "The others."

Can you link your topic to that matter? Anolytic has like 10 topics about that....

[Angus MacDuff]

5 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

Then we better be glad, that Anolytic makes a damn good job of adressing those issues in well constructed posts

A well constructed and respectful argument gets listened to??  That can't be right....

Edited April 16, 2019 by Angus MacDuff

[Hawkwood]

3 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

Then we better be glad, that Anolytic makes a damn good job of adressing those issues in well constructed posts

Shows only how much your or mine posts are considered in this matter.

[admin]

3 minutes ago, Hawkwood said:

Shows only how much your or mine posts are considered in this matter.

it takes many drops of rum to fill the barrel

[Tom Farseer]

4 minutes ago, Hawkwood said:

Shows only how much your or mine posts are considered in this matter.

I agree that it took quite some poking of our dear @admin (even with PMs) to get a reply to some of my Ideas. But let's try and keep this discussion On-Topic, shall we?

Edited April 16, 2019 by Tom Farseer
spelling (or rather my inability of it)

[shunt]

1 minute ago, admin said:

it takes many drops of rum to fill the barrel

its hard to tell which barrel is full and which is empty until you look inside

[Meraun]

12 minutes ago, Hawkwood said:

When 50 people here on forum adress the same thing nobody reacts..Wenn Anolytic does, voila, changes applied.

Thank you for trusting us. "The others."

Anolytic is very good in bringing it to the Point in a Construcive Matter