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Posted (edited)
On 4/6/2019 at 5:12 AM, admin said:

Captains

We started pushing new philosophy into NPC combat.

Previous design: combat perfomance ok, sailing very good, no weak spots
New design: Weak spots, bad sailing combined with strong shooting. 

Previous combat was more boring. NPCs did not have weak spots, could not even rake the NPC ship if his rank was high. You either outDPS the npc or they outDPSed you. 

Now it will be better, we started to reduce turning and sailing abilities that give the opportunity to avoid the NPC shots. If you can avoid the NPC shooting you can destroy it by raking. You can further increase enemy weak spots by applying chain to sails. (slowing them down even more)

If you fight AI often - please report your findings and suggestions of further improvement the depth of combat against NPCs and their AI.

Elite NPCs will also come soon into the game. 

 

Please report your impressions on new NPC combat. 

Add more loot and make it interesting. If NPC can drop ship deeds, rare items and currency to obtain pvp only items (low %)  then system will work, otherwise it's obsolete. Making any changes will not make an old horse faster or better. 

Edited by Pirate78
  • Like 1
Posted

With all the Data you could make them like us,20% turn right,turn left.shoot don't shoot,the only time I have a hard time is when theyre beat with 6v1 and they don't even try to withdraw..It would be nice to have the save option,and law of AVG's remake a saved battle with a different outcome.

Posted (edited)

Didn't play for a while but i still want to contribute to this topic.

There should be some kind of a learning curve. Thing is, the game is beeing tested right now from ppl that have 1000+ hours playing time, with the release closing in there will hopefully be an influx of new players. If they constantly get hammered by npcs they will won't stay for long. As it was suggested by some other ppl on this topic i would like to see different skill levels of NPCs for example more low skilled npcs around the starting areas. The skill level has to be visible to players and could be done with ranks (ensign,commander,admiral...) Rewards should be dependant on the enemy skill level.

Edited by Otsego
  • Like 4
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Jan van Santen said:

From a PvE server PoV:

The problem is a combination of boosted ai, boosted SoL's, the current loot table and the reduced lo/wo availability

Result is fatal: No more challenge in the fight vs AI.

Don't risk a good lo/wo SoL in a challenging fight vs several ai SoL's, you wont be able to replace it.

Rather take a cheap SoL (a capped one will do, who needs crafting ?) and go sealclubbing ai frigates. No risk and the same golden chests.

Tldr: One more example of effort/reward not matching in NA.

 

Point is that the usual solution that was adopted in the past for similar situations of risk/effort unbalance (in war server) consisted in nerfing the reward of the easier activity instead of buffing the one of the more difficult.

If the same cure will be applied to PVE stuff, I fear that this is likely to create a "hardcore/austerity effect" (a.k.a. ... less players) also on the peace server. 

Edited by toblerone
  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

This AI change feels more like a serious AI "Buff". All AI regardless of wood now absorb damage as if they were Live Oak and White Oak with all the armor upgrades and books. And their guns hit as if they are always shooting Double Charge or Double Shot or both.

Going 1 V 1 against one AI of same rate is usually a win, but rough still. But going 1 v 1 against a higher rate is a serious gamble. Going 1 v 3 against even AI one rate lower and you better have plenty of repairs on board.

Almost got sunk in a Live Oak White Oak Pandora fighting 2 Mercs and a Navy Brig. Had to repair 4 times and when the last Merc went down I was taking on water.

Even being in a Live Oak / White Oak Pandora maneuvering and angling with them wasn't an issue. But 1 of the 3 usually had a pretty straight shot. And their reload rate were extremely fast. Almost twice as fast as mine.

As it is this AI "buff" may turn every fight into endless stern raking as the only sure means to victory and that is quite boring.

Perhaps the AI have been made inadvertently too strong in all other areas except those that were converted to "weak spots".

This change forces us to make more realistic choices when choosing what AI fleets to engage and which ones to avoid with the ship we are in.

And we like AI to be challenging.  

But GEEZ. Maybe dial it back a bit.

 

Edited by Saint George
  • Like 2
Posted (edited)

Keep AI this strog, but buff the amount of reals you get from the fight, is what i propose. If you get more reals you will be more happy even if you believe the enemy AIs were a bit too tough.

 

Edited by Ligatorswe
  • Like 2
Posted
2 minutes ago, Ligatorswe said:

Keep AI this stromg, but buff the amount of reals you get from the fight, is what i propose. If you get more reals you will be more happy even if you believe the enemy AIs were a bit too tough.
 

You can at times not even get enough reals to compensate the repairs of your ship, or just barely.

  • Like 1
Posted
9 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

In a way some NPC cheating can be excused by our ability to repair, opposite their disability; not to repair.

I wish they DID repair, and stopped allowing us to kite them, and properly tried to withdraw or be aggressive (particularly traders) in the appropriate situations.  It would make AI battles much better practice.  Take away the crutches and let them behave more normally. 

 

Posted
4 hours ago, Ligatorswe said:

Keep AI this stromg, but buff the amount of reals you get from the fight, is what i propose. If you get more reals you will be more happy even if you believe the enemy AIs were a bit too tough.

 

If you want Reals, do passenger deliveries.  The rewards are much better for a fraction of the risk and effort.  Even cargo deliveries pay better with less effort.  Just do them in the gulf where it is quieter.

I think you would do the grind of the ai for slots or for the mission chests. 

I grind to get the mods for pvp so for me the grind is a means to an end and looking to do the max in least time to get the chests.

Lastly, it is one thing to grind on the PVE server but try same thing on PVP with possibility of having an enemy join the battle or limping to port after with missing armor etc.

  • Like 1
Posted

Sometimes NPC ships can take damage as if my guns are a class lower than they are, sometimes I wonder how fast the AI ships armour is down. 

When the enemy is boarded, it looks like the damage he took is in no correlation with the wood the ship is build of.

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

Sometimes NPC ships can take damage as if my guns are a class lower than they are, sometimes I wonder how fast the AI ships armour is down. 

When the enemy is boarded, it looks like the damage he took is in no correlation with the wood the ship is build of.

With the penetration of the NPC-guns i have the same impression.

And i dont tell about double charge using, If that is the reason they must have unlimited double charges. And also not about the difference from medium to long guns.

... sometimes i think we have Q-ships in this game.

Edited by Holm Hansen
  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
On 4/6/2019 at 11:12 AM, admin said:

New design: Weak spots, bad sailing combined with strong shooting. 

Great design when you fight against an equal bot (Surprise vs Surprise...) or a bigger one : it is more skilled based (sail well, you will sink it ; sail badly, you'll get a punishment).

Yesterday I tested the Pandora against a AI Brig. The bot did not seem to use its only advantage on my ship : its maneuverability. So I could easily outturn/rake it and had a better hp/fire power, making it a very easy prey.

I don't know if it is possible to boost a bit the sailing of the bots when they meet a less maneuverable ship sailed by a human.

However, the focus on fighting equal or bigger bots than yours is fine with me.

Edited by LeBoiteux
Posted
16 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

...

Yesterday I tested the Pandora against a AI Brig. The bot did not seem to use its only advantage on my ship : its maneuverability. So I could easily outturn/rake it and had a better hp/fire power, making it a very easy prey.

...

Hmm ... a Brig.

Test it against a Snow, seems especially Trader Snow and you will see a big difference in shooting.

and thats my problem with "strong shooting", they use the same 6pdr

Posted
16 hours ago, Ligatorswe said:

Keep AI this strog, but buff the amount of reals you get from the fight, is what i propose. If you get more reals you will be more happy even if you believe the enemy AIs were a bit too tough.

 

Reals are easy to come by via fedex.

We already have again what devs tried to get rid off: a worthless currency. You can earn a million of reales within 2 or 3 hours

What we need is a real economy change and not what the last eco patches did: bring back the same old  hyperinflation within a few days.

  • Like 1
Posted
28 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said:

Hmm ... a Brig.

Test it against a Snow, seems especially Trader Snow and you will see a big difference in shooting.

and thats my problem with "strong shooting", they use the same 6pdr

All the same. A shallow frigate with 32-pdr carro vs a 6-pdr light ship.

Rake the T. snow.

🙂

Posted
10 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

All the same. A shallow frigate with 32-pdr carro vs a 6-pdr light ship.

Rake the T. snow.

🙂

That is not the problem. The problem is the difference in the penetration between brig and for example tsnow. Both 6pdr armed.

... and then translate it to 2nd or 1st rates ...
 
 
  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said:
That is not the problem. The problem is the difference in the penetration between brig and for example tsnow. Both 6pdr armed.

... and then translate it to 2nd or 1st rates ...
 
 

well... my point was about the maneuverability of the AI ships when they fight human players who are in less maneuverable ships.

If yours is about the 'difference in the penetration' among AI 6-pders and among each class (as you wrote), then time for you to elaborate on your point in this feedback thread without interacting with me.

Edited by LeBoiteux
Posted
10 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

well... my point was about the maneuverability of the AI ships when they fight human players who are in less maneuverable ships.

If yours is about the 'difference in the penetration' among AI 6-pders and among each class (as you wrote), then time for you to elaborate on your point in this feedback thread without interacting with me.

" New design: Weak spots, bad sailing combined with strong shooting."

We should see the entire package. But please excuse the disturbing.

  • Like 1
Posted

Is the shooting of the NPC ships changed or as strong when we add them as our fleet Ships?  Did our fleet ships behavior change or is it the same as before this patch? 

Posted

I did not like the changes involving firepower of npc. 

* Their sailing seems more natural. That is good, no fix needed.

* Their firepower seems insane. I unloaded double shot into ingermanland without missing any from very close range, he responded to me like doubling my inflicted damage back to me. This is wrong, what did he shoot at me ? Double double shot ? I was missing my side armour after 2 broadsides from him. Funny thing my Agamemnon was teak/wo and his ship was fir/crew space :):) I can not imagine having a fir ship against that fir ship. Needs fixing and balancing.

* They still have insane firing angels, looks weird, it is like they can rotate cannons double the range of player. Needs fixing.

* I can deal with it, but it means you can not fight more than one ship of equal rate.

  • Like 6
Posted

Update - 

Testing goes on with the RattV and while that's not the focus of this thread, the behaviour of the AI is. 

I'm finding the total effect of the new AI to be excellent. Numerous one-on-ones vs. Class 3 ships have given me a strong appreciation for the individual skills of AI Captains; and HOW they apply their protocols dependent on ship type. 

For example, the 3rd Rate is slow, awkward and trends to downwind tactics - its captain undoubtedly knows that going into the wind is not helpful with such a lumbering vessel. She hits HARD though, and WILL try to suck the player into close-range action where it can pump a broadside into your hull. I was caught by surprise when it suckered me into following him into a downwind parallel; I lost quite a bot of armour before gaining separation - and gave up a ton of structure through the stern. Terrifying in the moment - an excellent tactic for the 3rd Rate.

The Bellona is of course always a tough fight, and unlike all other Class 3's is largely impossible to kill without at least one rep - for me anyway. They're using a mix of upwind and downwind tactics and can be extremely canny when it comes to forcing the player into a potential head-to-wind stall - while maintaining the inertia to capitalize on it, either with a broadside or boarding. They haven't managed to complete the trap yet; in the first case I managed to squeak past at 4.1kts, thanking Poseidon that the RattV accelerates well. :D They hit hard AND accurately, targeting your ship for maximum damage. They'll also hold fire if you're angling off, and blast when you round to fire. BLOODY tough. While they have wide firing arcs, I don't see a particular increase in firepower - which is good, since they're already nightmares at the broadside. I haven't lost to one yet but it's been DAMN close.

0AEEFEAA287CC5874AB69E4EB1C8C9F0FE9F5B7E

Like...THAT close. :D

Wasas are the dogfighters of the Class 3's; again a unique set of tactics emphasizing their maneuverability and quick firing. Very canny, VERY frustrating when attacking from upwind. They'll round up, spoiling your hit on his sides. They'll 3-point, giving you both broadsides in double-quick time. They'll sucker you in, trap you, force you into unneeded damage. One thing I've noticed with them: they can get rattled. Last fight, my enemy was tough, crisp and accurate, until I blasted him down to 1/2 armour, gave him a solid stern rake and his broadside bounced off. Then he seemed to become uncertain, firing wildly, keeping his distance, making mistakes. It didn't last long, but it really seemed that his cool was blown for a few minutes.

Connies are...well...Connies. Upwind-fighting, evil, sneaky insta-boarding bastards that have perfected the upwind ram as much as an AI possibly can. Staying upwind on these buggers is critical, but they're fully capable of rounding up, closing the gap FAST and forcing you into the wind where they WILL take you - every time. I lost a beautiful Gold Indef to one; I'm no beginner at boarding but it took me down - I need to take defensive boarding lessons from Tenet; he's a bloody master at it. So far I haven't lost a RattV; its manoeuverability and high-fighting ability trumps the Connie's excellent upwind fighting and trapping skills.

Results: I am LOVING the new AI. The same old boring 'Steer-him-off, broadside-then-rake' predictable AI are gone; replaced by a much cannier, complex AI that is still predictable, but takes much greater advantage of ship-types. While I DO see that all ships have wider firing arcs, they're not nearly as wide as some people fear. Also, I still see no indication at all of increased firepower or accuracy. If there IS any change, it's minimal, to maximize an individual ship type's advantage against the player.

So far, I give the new AI 4 out of 5 stars - there's always room for improvement but it's pretty excellent.

Cheers!

  • Like 9
Posted

We love how reduced turning skills became the magic button and actually increased complexity and tactical depth (allowing you to make choices when fighting Bots).

We do feel that turning debuffs for lower level ships can go even lower. As even pro players could not rake NPCs consistently. (Now you can)

Additionally we plan to add more defined roles AND adding elite NPCs with epic loot. 
+ will address the wide horizontal shooting ark as it seems to be an annoying factor for many. 

  • Like 21
Posted
23 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Could the ai damage be tuned down slightly?

the problem is they use unlimited double ball and charge aswell as medium cannons, so the damage feels higher, but its actually not.

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