No Reinforcement Zones!!!!

[Hullabaloo]

Sorry I know there was already a thread but it didn't have 'Reinforcement Zone' in the title and was difficult to find.

I have never liked Reinforcement Zones. They certainly don't suit my play style and they felt way too big and too numerous and it made it too easy for players to essentially perma PvE on the War server. I'm glad they have gone in their old format. Currently playing as Brit it is hilarious having an almost continuous war going on right outside your Capital.

But to get rid of them completely? We must remember that most of us on this forum are experienced players and the PvP focused amongst us easily the most numerous subset. So the Question I am asking is, is this really good for the well-being of the game and for balance and for new player retention? Here are some points/problems for discussion:

1. The way this was announced! There are 2 lines as a PS on the Patch Notes, that's all I can see. Where are the new RoE rules for capital zones even explained? Did I miss them? (defo possible) or are are we supposed to try and work them out? Why has Admin not made a pinned topic for it's discussion? Just seems odd the way it's been done.

2. Capitals mean nothing. New players need somewhere with at least some relative safety so they can find their feet and learn the game? NOt being able to play perma-safe PvE on the war server no. But not this baptism of fire surely?  They can leave the area entirely of course and set up somewhere else on the map yes. But this is counter intuitive to what a new player will expect when they start the game and the very place that will be their trade hub, where they are MADE to begin the game will be the most dangerous place on the map! Putting a permanent Patrol Zone directly outside a Capital would actually make it marginally safer!  We know that most new players simply don't do this. It's carnage outside KPR, they will die and they will quit.

3. Coast Guard won't happen in a way that adequately protects new players as it is. I like the idea that Nations would be responsible for protecting their own waters but in reality I doubt this is going to happen in a meaningful way that offers any effective protection. Currently playing as a Brit, it's just too time-consuming and frustrating explaining do's and don'ts, tagging rules, battle timers, BR balancing etc to new players over and over. Battles that do occur here are 'fair' but 'fair' will be too much of a drain on ships and resources over the long term to provide this 'service'. It's a lot of PvP yes, right on your doorstep, which is nice, but it's going to get a bit boring trying to defend the permanent siege on your capital day after day. Most clans I suspect will move (that's fine) but they will be leaving only the new players at KPR to be fed to the sharks. Come on guy's you really want open access all seal clubbing?

4. Great Britain 'Easy', Russia 'Hard' I believe it tells new players on the Nation choosing screen? Obviously that needs to be changed because quite clearly the exact opposite is true!

My suggestion would be this:

Bring back Reinforcement Zones but in this way:

Capital Zone. One Port (the Capital) has a reinforcement Zone of the full (old) size. In this zone home players are not taggable. If enemies are tagged, other enemies cannot join the battle unless they were dragged at tag. Home side can enter for 20 minutes. It should be still be dangerous to attack another Nation's Capital. I do it all the time and I wouldn't mind this. 

Reinforcement Zone. Two Ports (either side of the Capital) have a reinforcement Zone. In this Zone home players ARE taggable and Enemy players can reinforce for 2.5 Minutes, Home side can reinforce for 20 Minutes. 

No BR limits for either side.

LIMIT enemy AI in Capital/Reinforcement zones to Traders only and all 'Kill' Missions to spawn outside of zones. (This seems immersive to me and prevents players staying in zones to PVE grind all day)

This way an organised coast guard is at least viable and new players get offered a good level of protection (but not from AI which was crap).  They will still have to learn quickly how to survive though. Attacking a Capital is still viable for those who want to but it put's you at a disadvantage and you are likely to end up out-numbered (which seems reasonable to me). New players can at least visit neighbouring Ports without having to 'run the gauntlet' and get a feel for travel and trade and hauling goods. The concept of home (safer) waters will be palpable but no player is going to get very far by staying within them.

Just a suggestion there will almost certainly be better ones.

[Angus MacDuff]

Excellent suggestion and I can't imagine anyone would object to this.  New players MUST have at least a minor level of protection beyond the tiny Capitol zone.  Added to this, we need to see the "Welcome to the Caribbean" tutorial with some detailed suggestions to beginners.  I am sure there is a statistic that shows a bump in PVP because of this last patch, but it is not PVP that is healthy for the game long term.

[Simon Cadete]

It’s not a bad suggestion but the problem with it is that it gets abused regardless if the reinforcement area is 1 port or 100! Players won’t leave it and worst of all is that it will be rear admirals that have been playing this game for over a year. They refuse to join the pve server and are only interested in pvp when it’s 15 vs 1 or 2. 

They cannot be given anything because they’ll abuse it. Have a capital zone where new players can’t get tagged and get their missions spawn inside that zone ( up to 5th rate) so they can learn the game and be safe. Only traders should sail by the capital and for everything else you should have to move away from there and risk your stuff. It’s a war server afterall. 

I’m tired of seeing l’oceans doing pve all day and go hide in port if an enemy Bellona is sighted near the capital. To me those players are just about as bad to the game as the toxic elite veterans.

[Hullabaloo]

17 minutes ago, Simon Cadete said:

Only traders should sail by the capital and for everything else you should have to move away from there and risk your stuff. It’s a war server afterall. 

Agreed 100%

 

1 hour ago, Hullabaloo said:

LIMIT enemy AI in Capital/Reinforcement zones to Traders only and all 'Kill' Missions to spawn outside of zones. (This seems immersive to me and prevents players staying in zones to PVE grind all day)

[Hullabaloo]

19 minutes ago, Simon Cadete said:

get their missions spawn inside that zone ( up to 5th rate)

I wouldn't even give them that! lol But that would be ok

[Anne Wildcat]

How about only AI reinforcements inside the capital for players up to rank 3, whatever that rank is for your nation (first lieutenant according to the wiki)?

[Hullabaloo]

I think some kind of ranking system could work yes. That's not really been tried to my knowledge, but personally I think it's better to get away form AI reinforcements if possible.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 hour ago, Simon Cadete said:

It’s not a bad suggestion but the problem with it is that it gets abused regardless if the reinforcement area is 1 port or 100! Players won’t leave it and worst of all is that it will be rear admirals that have been playing this game for over a year. They refuse to join the pve server and are only interested in pvp when it’s 15 vs 1 or 2.

So what?  They can play their game any way they want.  Its not for me to try and force someone into a style of play.  Hulla's suggestion does everything to encourage others to get out into OW.  They'll come out eventually, because they need to make money and this OP gets that result.

[Sang Noir]

1 hour ago, Simon Cadete said:

I’m tired of seeing l’oceans doing pve all day and go hide in port if an enemy Bellona is sighted near the capital. To me those players are just about as bad to the game as the toxic elite veterans.

At least they are on the same server with you, maybe doing something for the economy, selling you a book once in a while, trading, crafting and maybe even switching from the Ocean to another ship to do some pvp and help you gank someone. Someone has to do something else in the wonderful OPEN SANDBOX world ...

Personally I think the idea of the safe zones was good the way they were first conceived with strong AI reinforcements, but there's no point in arguing for them. They were pretty much diluted after their inception anyways and speaking from my experience at Fort Royal didn't scare any raiders away one bit. It's been such a long discussion about R-Zones and how to make them better - let them go and be gone.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Jean de la Rochelle

[Sang Noir]

 

26 minutes ago, Routan said:

shitload of PvE content.

Agreed. The entire port battle / clan system pvp system took quite some time to refine and develop, it would be fair to put some focus on PVE  now (at least a historical map please?).

Make the War server as hardcore as possible (do you dare June 2017?).

[Angus MacDuff]

54 minutes ago, Routan said:

I think that they just should forget abouth R zones on war server. Finish port management, start focus on peace server. Make more PvE content and a bit of PvP.

- Pb against AI and plz some smart setup and tac from the Ai.

- Make a PvP area a day.

- shitload of PvE content.

Peace server will then be where most players are, a locomotive for the game, some hardcore on war ofc. New players will have a fun place to start, when they feel ready, they will try war.

This thread is about R Zones on the PVP server.  Could you preach your PVE gospel on another thread?

[Sento de Benimaclet]

25 minutes ago, Jean de la Rochelle said:

Make the War server as hardcore as possible

When you stay alone in the war server, then we will see who you sink. You only think of your interest, and your interest should be that more and more people are doing pvp and not less.

[Ligatorswe]

5 minutes ago, Graf Bernadotte said:

Implement coast guard missions, which gives players who defend home waters an extra amount of combat medals due to the damage they do in battle. But no mercy for nations which are unwilling to defend their empires.

As i proposed elsewhere it should be possible for a sailor that is attacked in these zones to call for help. Like the call for reinforcement today.

The call could be made public via the national chat and all that participates and make damage should get some kind of extra award.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Ligatorswe said:

As i proposed elsewhere it should be possible for a sailor that is attacked in these zones to call for help. Like the call for reinforcement today.

The call could be made public via the national chat and all that participates and make damage should get some kind of extra award.

Nothing I love more than an age of sail game with radio teletype...

[Dibbler (Retired)]

6 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Nothing I love more than an age of sail game with radio teletype...

 

"Carrier pidgeon" 

[Socialism]

To quote admin, this game is for "hardcore m'fers" only.  Which is probably why only 500 people play it.

[Hullabaloo]

19 minutes ago, Sento de Benimaclet said:

more people are doing pvp and not less

Yes, but not just ANY PvP.  Slaughtering new players is lame and a capital zone that is MORE dangerous than venturing out just doesn't make sense from an mmo pov. It's back to the same old argument about trying to turn the openworld game into Legends again. 

2 minutes ago, Graf Bernadotte said:

But no mercy for nations which are unwilling to defend their empires

That's easy for you to say mate but It's a very different experience being in Brit or Pirate Nation than in Russian 'winners'. KPR and MT are just hunting grounds because they are full of noobs and it's in the middle of the map. The attacks are constant, it's not Bermuda!   Brit noobs pile into the battle in little ships and take up slots and BR, they enter battles and then leave if someone shoots at them! and that's the better ones!  Most of them don't have the sense to do that! There' s little coordination, few on voice comms, it's like herding cats! Brits have numbers yes but you cant build ships fast enough to defend KPR and even if you had a big well-organised clan prepared to do it, there would be no time to do anything else! EXILE did it for a while tbf and others have made an effort (FENIX did it for a month or two in Pirates) but they all get fed up in the end. I've been in clans that tried to do it in Pirates and now Brits, it's impossible to maintain. If you don't believe me get REDS to join Brits and try it out? lol

[Dibbler (Retired)]

22 minutes ago, Graf Bernadotte said:

You describe exactly the problem of Britain and the Pirates. But be honest. It's a problem of players who are unwilling to play the game how it has to be played. If you wanna protect British newbies from reality of this game, when do you wanna start to tell them the truth?

I started this game in Sweden surrounded by Danes and French. Ok, we had a non agression pact for the Antilles back then. But pirates were sailing every day from Hat Island right through Swedish waters to Plymouth and back. I got ganked so many times right next to Gustavia I can show you all of the places still today. But Sweden was organized, we made fleet missions together with experienced players. Even Sveno joined. And we fought enemy players without mercy.

Nothing happens in Britain. Experienced players don't care about the destiny of the nation and about the offspring. Might be that there are too many people in your nation who wanna have a say without having a clue. That makes good players emigrate to other nations or just into solo game play.  Britain doesn't work. Seal clubbing in front of your capital is just one of the results of this failed state. It's not the reason.

There must have been other times in Britain. When I started the game it was the strongest power on server.

 

 Join GB for a while and see the constant steam of new guys shouting out in nation chat,  sorry to say but you become oblivious to it after a few weeks.

 Like most computer games players will do what they want to, which believe it or not is not showing up to try to defend lost causes. At KPR there is no teamspeak/coms 95% of time,  new guys joining battle will be in crew space ships, they often won't know how to sail and work in group,  and no surprise that older players just watch as multiple nations park up outside kpr in their L33T ships. 

 

Why defend something that is of not importance, KPR can't be taken, has no importance is just a new player spawn so naturally attracts "spawn campers".  If you want to provoke PvP perhaps not better to start flipping a port perhaps?

 In short players are doing whatever they are doing, not PvP prostitutes to come when you call and do a trick .  Sometimes some in nation will react if they want to but isn't a job like raiders seem to think it is (I parked outside KPR in my UB3R ship so players must come and attax me).

 I do find it funny that there can be 3 or more national groups at KPR but don't fight each other lol but thats life .

 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Dibbler

[Hullabaloo]

6 minutes ago, Graf Bernadotte said:

You describe exactly the problem of Britain and the Pirates. But be honest. It's a problem of players who are unwilling to play the game how it has to be played. If you wanna protect British newbies from reality of this game, when do you wanna start to tell them the truth?

I started this game in Sweden surrounded by Danes and French. Ok, we had a non agression pact for the Antilles back then. But pirates were sailing every day from Hat Island right through Swedish waters to Plymouth and back. I got ganked so many times right next to Gustavia I can show you all of the places still today. But Sweden was organized, we made fleet missions together with experienced players. Even Sveno joined. And we fought enemy players without mercy.

Nothing happens in Britain. Experienced players don't care about the destiny of the nation and about the offspring. Might be that there are too many people in your nation who wanna have a say without having a clue. That makes good players emigrate to other nations or just into solo game play.  Britain doesn't work. Seal clubbing in front of your capital is just one of the results of this failed state. It's not the reason.

There must have been other times in Britain. When I started the game it was the strongest power on server.

You are talking in terms of some kind of nation 'pride' so you are talking to the wrong person. I have clan loyalty not nation loyalty. Brit is not 'my' nation anymore than Pirates or Russians were. (although I have started to like the Russian nation least ONLY, because it appears to be where certain clans are now flocking so they can 'win' ). You seem to think that there are differences between the 'quality' of the experienced players in different nations? That's not been my experience at all. It's just that Pirates and Brits are for whatever reason the most popular first choice for new players and their capitals are in the centre of the map. That's it! That's the only difference, so the 'problem' of noobs getting slaughtered has always been felt more acutely there.

[Dibbler (Retired)]

17 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

You are talking in terms of some kind of nation 'pride' so you are talking to the wrong person. I have clan loyalty not nation loyalty. Brit is not 'my' nation anymore than Pirates or Russians were. (although I have started to like the Russian nation least ONLY, because it appears to be where certain clans are now flocking so they can 'win' ). You seem to think that there are differences between the 'quality' of the experienced players in different nations? That's not been my experience at all. It's just that Pirates and Brits are for whatever reason the most popular first choice for new players and their capitals are in the centre of the map. That's it! That's the only difference, so the 'problem' of noobs getting slaughtered has always been felt more acutely there.

 

   It seems to be that crowds of experienced players will often all move to the same nations around the same period of time,  like what happened in GB last year with the whole AHOY thing and bad blood in nation.  Just seemed all the experienced players left and then started attacking all the new guys at KPR/Belize,  same happened in US when Raxius and co left there,  and probably same over all nations at some point.

 Also many times the better/older players will not attack each other even when in opposing nations,  sat outside Mortimer/KPR complaining to each other about lack of "good" PvP... oh the irony lol.

 It all does make me chuckle .

 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Dibbler

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

So what?  They can play their game any way they want.  Its not for me to try and force someone into a style of play.  Hulla's suggestion does everything to encourage others to get out into OW.  They'll come out eventually, because they need to make money and this OP gets that result.

I really don' t get the guys that hate so much on the Causals, RPers and guys that just want to level up on the side and PvP when they feel like it.  They aren't effecting there game other than maybe not giving them so many easy targets. Sooner or later they stop playing, the game numbers drop and there is no more sheep to hunt.  Than you got the same hard core guys bitching about the dead servers and lack of RvR/PvP.  Maybe if they stop farming the crap out of the casuals or let them grow a bit they would have more targets than we have now.  Hell maybe if they actually fought each other once in a while they get some good fights, but no they just want to seal club the newbs and crappy RA players that aren't good at the game but still enjoy playing it even if that just means killing AI. 

Why should I have to go to peace server when I want to enjoy all parts of the game?  

 

41 minutes ago, Socialism said:

To quote admin, this game is for "hardcore m'fers" only.  Which is probably why only 500 people play it.

Don't you mean more like 300 people, well 200 and there alts is more like it.  Hell when was the last time we broke 400 on the server?  Isn't this prime time EU right now and there is only 225 online.   Well more like 175 if you take away the alts.

12 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 

 Join GB for a while and see the constant steam of new guys shouting out in nation chat,  sorry to say but you become oblivious to it after a few weeks.

 Like most computer games players will do what they want to, which believe it or not is not showing up to try to defend lost causes. At KPR there is no teamspeak/coms 95% of time,  new guys joining battle will be in crew space ships, they often won't know how to sail and work in group,  and no surprise that older players just watch as multiple nations park up outside kpr in their L33T ships.

 In short players are doing whatever they are doing, not PvP prostitutes to come when you call and do a trick .

 I do find it funny that there can be 3 or more national groups at KPR but don't fight each other lol but thats life .

 

You pretty much summed up how US coast line is too, except we don't have ports any more spread out that you can go away from capital area and hide.  Half the server made sure of that by pretyt much one porting the US (well as close as you can get to one porting these days).  It still cracks me up when you see 2-3 nations out side a US port and none of them attacking each other most the time just waiting for that perfect gank.  Than they cry there is no PvP.  Well go flip Cart, Little Harbour or Nassau or any other important port that is owned by a big clan and I promise you get PvP.  They just don't want hard PvP, they want easy kills.  Hell I been there back when I was on Global in BLACK.  It got old after a while and wasn't fun so I tried to help out the other side....but I get so much shit all the time by guys that are toxic and seem to hate on others.   

[Barbarosa]

Designate small part of the map as a starter area.

Starter area should be 100% safe zone, with an option to duel on OW.

Make the economy 1/4 of normal area. Less/no strategic woods or resources.

Let new joiners experience and learn the game in their own speed.

Let them decide when to risk and join the more rewarding economy zone with pvp.

Let them choose the nation in the process. 

Create an enjoyable story line.

That simple. Very easy to solve as many other problems we have here. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 

   It seems to be that crowds of experienced players will often all move to the same nations around the same period of time,  like what happened in GB last year with the whole AHOY thing and bad blood in nation.  Just seemed all the experienced players left and then started attacking all the new guys at KPR/Belize,  same happened in US when Raxius and co left there,  and probably same over all nations at some point.

 Also many times the better/older players will not attack each other even when in opposing nations,  sat outside Mortimer/KPR complaining to each other about lack of "good" PvP... oh the irony lol.

 It all does make me chuckle .

 

 

I never got the reason why folks hate so much on there old nations.  I seen it over and over when guys leave their nations cause they get sick on tired of loosing to other clans/nations.  Only to join those nations/clans to make them even stronger but they dont' go after big targets or strong nations/clans.  They instead join in on picking on the weaker old nations like they have some vendeta against that nation cause some one touched there "NO NO" spot or something once a upon a time.

1 minute ago, Barbarosa said:

Designate small part of the map as a starter area.

Starter area should be 100% safe zone, with an option to duel on OW.

Make the economy 1/4 of normal area. Less/no strategic woods or resources.

Let new joiners experience and learn the game in their own speed.

Let them decide when to risk and join the more rewarding economy zone with pvp.

Let them choose the nation in the process. 

Create an enjoyable story line.

That simple. Very easy to solve as many other problems we have here. 

The problem is this dev team doens't know how to make Rookie zones or even reienforecement zones balanced by what we seen in the past.   Even if they did this than the same hard core PvPers will bitch cause they don't have enough easy targets until it will get removed again.

[Barbarosa]

9 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

The problem is this dev team doens't know how to make Rookie zones or even reienforecement zones balanced by what we seen in the past.   Even if they did this than the same hard core PvPers will bitch cause they don't have enough easy targets until it will get removed again. 

The bitch will be combing her hair when the street is on fire.

[Anolytic]

38 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

You are talking in terms of some kind of nation 'pride' so you are talking to the wrong person. I have clan loyalty not nation loyalty.

Then recruit the new players in Brit chat into your clan so you can teach them what to do and where to go to be moderately safe.

38 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

Brit is not 'my' nation anymore than Pirates or Russians were.

REDS is a nation unto its own. Other Russian clans, BF, RUS, NN, etc are our allies. 

38 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

(although I have started to like the Russian nation least ONLY, because it appears to be where certain clans are now flocking so they can 'win' )

Lol. Funny how perspective change (and blinders go on) based on where in the boat you sit. Russia got, what, one single clan that moved to our nation in the last 6 months or so, a clan that was leaving their previous nation regardless, and who (parts of) REDS have had a close relationship and friendship with since a year before Russia was even added to the game. Meanwhile, how many different clans joined Brits since HAVOC started winning PBs for them? I could start counting, but I want to finish this post today.

Russia has recruited almost exclusively players and clans that we have played with before and wanted to play with again. How many of the new British clans since last September had a relationship beforehand?

------------

Back on topic:

I wouldn't mind if there was a reinfocement zone of some sort near national capitals. But brits have survived in the past without Capital Area protection and will survive again if they have clans that are willing to recruit players and teach them how to survive in the harsh world that lies outside of their comfy and uncaptureable ports.

Russia is "Hard" because there you have to build everything from scratch yourself. You have to work together, regardless of differences and language barriers. Britain is easy because a small empire is already there at the start, and expansion is easy in any direction. Just because Russians have learned to see past our own clans and collaborate, doesn't make anything easy. Only possible.

-----------

1 hour ago, Hullabaloo said:

If you don't believe me get REDS to join Brits and try it out?

You wish. No thanks.

38 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

so the 'problem' of noobs getting slaughtered has always been felt more acutely there.

If clans had the view of new players as potential assets rather than liabilities, like clans in nations with less easy recruitment does, then maybe the problem would be less.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Anolytic