Lack of R-Zone Makes Sovereign Territorial Waters a Sick Joke

[Galt]

On 3/30/2019 at 10:40 AM, Bull Hull said:

Except that isn't what I'm saying at all.  Nice try with the distortion and misrepresentation.

Then please, direct me. It's always best to explain your position when someone doesn't seem to understand.

[Bull Hull]

 

On 3/30/2019 at 3:15 PM, William Death said:

No, I understand what you're saying, I think. You mean that the "Nation" (the entity that all players flying that flag "serve" in game) should provide some defense for itself. Ok, I get that if we assume that the "Nation" is bigger than the sum of its players. But its not. In game, the nation is made up of its players. Russia has X amount of players, therefore the Russian nation is X big (population). Same with Pirates. Same with GB. Same with USA. 

No, you don't understand what I'm saying.  The "Nation" is the entirety of the players flying that flag AND the NPCs flying that flag.  The "Nation" obviously has the resources through its Admiralty to have dozens if not hundreds of combat ships sailing throughout the entire map.  Yet the Admiralty cannot provide a possibly effective defense against invaders UNLESS the invader initiates the attack.  The "Nation" obviously has the resources through its Admiralty to have dozens of combat ships sailing within its core territorial waters giving the appearance of providing a Coast Guard defending core territorial waters from invaders.  Yet the Admiralty cannot provide a possibly effective defense against invaders UNLESS the invader initiates the attack.  Thus, sadly, that appearance is merely that, a hollow appearance that is a pathetic joke of what is simultaneously possible and impossible.

That effective defense is clearly possible because the resources are obviously there.  At any given time if we sail through the length of our territorial waters we can see up to dozens of a coast guard of Navy combat ships patrolling core territorial waters to defend those waters against invaders.  AND that effective defense (from the Admiralty) is effectively impossible much of the time because an arbitrary game mechanic magically limits any chance of the Admiralty providing a possibly effective defensive response to which player initiates the attack.  Consequently, the game arbitrarily and artificially limits any chance of any given nation's ability to effectively defend its core territorial waters UNLESS that "Nation" just happens to have a lot of players playing that nation AND that "Nation" just happens to have enough of those players logged on at the right time AND enough of those players just happen to be close enough to arrive in time AND a significant number of those who are logged on at the right time are not alts who are really playing for the other side/s. 

So, basically what I'm saying is that EVERY nation should be able to effectively defend its core territorial waters REGARDLESS of how many players choose to play that nation and REGARDLESS of how many players just happen to log on at any given time and REGARDLESS of how many of those players are alts playing for the other side/s and REGARDLESS of who initicates the attack.  That way there is a real incentive for players to play any/every nation because then the chances of surviving and even thriving are decent for every player in every nation REGARDLESS of how many other players choose to play that nation and REGARDLESS of how many other players in that nation choose to log on log on at any given time and REGARDLESS of how many of those other players are actually alts playing for the other side/s.  A player-nation of one, either as a function of the total players playing that nation or whether only one is logged on, should be able to defend core territorial waters by getting effective support from the Admiralty.  The Admiralty should provide effective support REGARDLESS of who initiates the attack.  Again, the resources are obviously there, but magically they only respond effectively some of the time but not others. Any Admiralty that incompetent should be fired.  But as things stand now the game design very strongly incentivizes players to concentrate into a few large countries with a few large clans.

When the defensive resources are so obviously available arbitrarily and magically limiting an effective defensive response to which side initiates the attack seems like a stupid and unrealistic limitation.  And again, any Admiralty that incompetent should be fired.  That arbitrary and unrealitistic limitation is also an example of how the developers are insulting our intelleigence and treating us like stupid children they need to manipulate into playing the game how they want us to play it instead of empowering us to play it in a wide variety of different ways.  The more the developers pander to one particular playing style, the more they refuse to understand anything about effective leadership and providing superior customer service, the more the game will appeal to a very small niche of a few hundred players who prefer that style or some who are willing to endure the blatant and insulting manipulation as they try to get by with playing how they want to play it only part of the time.

[Bull Hull]

1 hour ago, Galt said:

Then please, direct me. It's always best to explain your position when someone doesn't seem to understand.

I DO explain it.  Just compare my words and the meaning of my words to your misrepresentation of my words.  What I say and the meaning of what I say isn't even close to your misrepresentation.  I explain in my OP and I expand on that explanation.

[Bull Hull]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:15 PM, William Death said:

You also speak of a "paltry percent or two of the map" ok, area-wise, yeah the old R-Zones weren't that big. But EVERYONE (almost) was inside them ALL THE TIME (almost). That was the issue. Everyone hiding in zones so there were few/no targets outside of R-Zones to hit. And I don't blame them. Why leave when everything you need is right there and you can even go exploit AI reinforcements to do your "PvP" for you.

Nice try with the lame stereotyping by essentially labeling everyone in the R-Zones as cowards who are "hiding" from PvP.  Nice try with the lame false dichotomy by implying that all players are either brave PvPers who leave their R-Zone or cowards who are hiding in their R-Zone.  Nice try with the lame stereotyping by saying anyone who calls for reinforcements to defend sovereign territorial waters is trying to get the ai to do all of their PvP for them.  Nice try with that lame red herring in which you imply every PvP opportunity with invaders is a fair fight between two opponents of relatively equal skill, sailing ships of relatively equal quality and class, and both players have fully unboxed and fully modded that particular ship so nobody should ever need any help from the ai.  Also, even if outgunned and outnumbered the player who wants to defend sovereign territorial waters should do so without hesitation and should not need any ai help because that player just happens to be playing a country that has a lot of players AND a lot of them just happen to be online at the right time AND they just happen to not be tied up in a battle themselves AND they just happen to be close enough to be able to provide help in time AND they just happen to be willing to help AND they just happen to not be alts playing for the other side/s AND even if there is only one invader that one invader doesn't have 3-6 buddies just out of sight ready to gank whoever tries to defend their territorial waters without any help from the Admiralty even though the Admiralty has dozens of ship that could help.  And finally of course that player who wants to defend sovereign territorial waters just happens be sailing in a disposable ship that is easy replace.

Leveling up ships by unboxing skill boxes is not "hiding" in the R-Zone.  That is prudent and NECESSARY training and development to prepare a ship for doing PvP in the OW after the ship and the player are ready.  Taking an unboxed ship into combat against what is likely a purple or gold quality enemy ship using four or five of the best mods and five of the best skills is foolish, not brave; especially if it is not possible to quickly and easily replace a lost ship. Not every player has disposable ships full of disposable mods they can afford to lose without hesitation.

Players leveling up the their own skill set by collecting decent skill books to put into skill boxes is not "hiding" in the R-Zone.  That is prudent and NECESSARY training and development to prepare for doing PvP in the OW after the player is ready.  Going into combat without a decent skill set against what is likely a purple or gold quality enemy using four or five of the best mods and five of the best skills is foolish, not brave; especially if it is not possible to quickly and easily replace a lost ship. Not every player has disposable ships full of disposable mods they can afford to lose without hesitation.

Players sailing together to learn effective squadron/fleet tactics and to develop effective teamwork is not "hiding" in the R-Zone.  That is prudent and NECESSARY training and development to prepare a team, not a group but a team, for doing PvP in the OW after the players are ready.  Taking an undertrained and underdeveloped group that can't fight effectively as a team into combat against what are likely purple or gold quality enemies using four or five of the best mods and five of the best skills when they are also likely an effective team is foolish, especially if it is not possible to quickly and easily replace a lost ship. Not every player has disposable ships full of disposable mods they can afford to lose without hesitation.

Players sailing together in a group because they are comrades or maybe even friends who simply want to sail together to have some fun and share some camaraderie in relative peace and quite purely for the sake of having some fun together may or may be temporarily hiding in the R-Zone some of the time.  So, friggin, what?  All of the players I know who do that some of the time ALSO go out into the OW for PvP at other times.  Why do YOU care soooooooo bloody much about how other players wish to have fun at least some of the time, or maybe even all of the time if that's how THEY want to have fun playing the game?

[Bull Hull]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:15 PM, William Death said:

I could ask you the same childish questions regarding your original post. But I won't because the point of a forum of a game under development is to discuss our opinions of mechanics. If you don't like my opinions thats ok. I personally think a lot of your suggestions are half-baked and would be terrible for a PvP server; but you are 100% allowed to have and share those opinions with the developers on the forums. Just be glad I'm not a developer because my opinions would become hard coded mechanics of the game. Thats all I have to say to the first part of the rant there.  

The only childish person posting childish comments or question is the person who is resorting to the pathetic tactic of making a childish ad hominem attack, even if that attack is covert rather than over.

So, EXACTLY how is my question childish?  Your RATIONAL explanation for how my comment is a rant is? ? ?  Your RATIONAL explanation for how my question is childish is? ? ?

I personally think a lot of your suggestions are worse than half-baked because of poor reasoning and are terrible for appealing to a wide variety of playing styles that CAN coexist quite well on a PvP server.  And you are 100% allowed to rationalize those half-baked ideas however you wish to rationalize them.

[Bull Hull]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:15 PM, William Death said:

Perhaps you also didn't notice the part of my post where I said there should be safe zones that are good for 5th rate missions or grinding 5th rate fleets of up to 3 ships. If a Rear Admiral chooses to do PvE on the PvP server, and if he chooses to want to do so with full protection from all enemies, then he can grab one of his frigates and PvE as much as he wants. Or he can even grab his first rate and club AI 5th rate fleets in the capital zone. There is nothing stopping him. But, if he wants to grind that first rate effectively (using larger fleets), he'll have to leave the capital zone to do so. Or choose to play on the PvE server, which is more suited to those who only want to PvE anyways.

There are a lot of choices in that above paragraph to accuse me of trying to force anyone to do any playstyle.

Why only 5th Rates?  What about people who need to fully unbox their 4th Rates, and 3rd Rates, and 2nd Rates, and 1st Rates?  Taking unboxed ships into the OW where they are subject to PvP against enemies who are likely in purple or gold quality ships that are fully modded with the best mods and using five of the best skills is foolish, especially if the ships and mods are not disposable and easy to quickly replace.  Unboxed ships in the OW outside of an R-Zone are nothing more than targets to skippers in purple or gold quality ships that are fully modded with the best mods and using five of the best skills.

Why only three ships?  What about groups of more than three who want and need to sail together as a group so they can fully develop their squadron and fleet tactics to become a fully functional and effective TEAM instead of a bunch of individuals sailing together as a group?  The former has a decent chance to prevail.  The latter will usually die pointlessly.  Making it impossible for all practical purposes for TEAMS of more than three people to effectively and safely train together REGARDLES of the class of ship they are sailing is grossly unreasonable.  What you suggest is merely a way to manipulate people in bigger ships into becoming targets, especially unprepared people sailing unprepared ships. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of prohibiting college and professional football teams from having team practices because they got all of the team practice they needed before and during HS.

Before a US Navy ship is assigned to any non-training mission or operation that ship and crew must fully train and qualify for that type of mission BEFORE it is eligible to get the assignment.  So, for example, before a US Navy ship can be given an NGFS mission (i.e. Naval Gunfire Support) it must first qualify at naval gunfire.  Or, before being given a mission to perform ASW (Anti Submarine Warfare) duties it must first qualify.  Then, before a US Navy ship gets assigned to a Battle Group for a Readiness exercise it must be fully qualified in all operations and missions to participate with other ships for that exercise, unless the purpose of the exercise is for training and qualifications to do a particular type of mission. Finally, before a US Navy Battle Group (BG) deploys every ship/crew must fully qualify for EVERY kind of operation and mission that BG can get while deployed, and that includes passing a Readiness Exercise together as a BG.  US Navy ships don't deploy so they can train.  They train and qualify so they can deploy.

My guess is that you never served in the military nor played a team sport because you clearly have no understanding or appreciation for how important it is for people, and especially for TEAMS, to FULLY train and develop BEFORE they deploy or play in a game against another team.  This game, even on the PvP server, is not fundamentally much different from.

Here is an axiom I learned in the Army, and then again in the Navy - Proper Prior Planning & Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.  For this game proper preparation at the individual level necessarily includes leveling up ships to fully unbox them BEFORE taking them into PvP combat.  For this game proper preparation at the group level of a squadron or fleet necessarily includes a group of players sailing together enough so they can become a fully functional team BEFORE taking them into PvP combat against another squadron or fleet.  Going into combat against other players without proper preparation is foolish.

The choices in your above paragraph are grossly inadequate.  And if you don't understand how your choices are in fact/reality trying to force/manipulate players into a particular paradigm then your willful blindness is incurable.

[van der Clam]

On 3/30/2019 at 6:31 AM, Chieftain said:

Ok,R-zones removed,new player comes on to explore,practice,learn = insta gank by elitest vets(with an ego the size of a small african nation  ) Result,new guy sunk,ship gone,monies gone,didn't know what hit him,he may try again,same result,logs off and goe's play something else.The newbie may have come from pve server thinking yeah i can do the same on war server with the added pvp content,he thinks he knows how to sail,trade and fight,but reality is ,its a whole new ball game on war server!If the new guy can't achieve anything then he gonna leave and this game NEEDS more new guys because if they don't stay,then who are the pvpers gonna sink? If they have no-one to sink,then eventually they gonna leave and find another game to play.The game needs to retain new guys so that they can be the new pvpers but they need some sort of protection to at least mid rank.

So ,if the Devs don't want r-zones along with some players then how about a reinforcement perk for lower mid rank players? So if the new guy is sailing along in OW and gets jumped,he can call in his reinforcement ship,rate equivelent to the attacker.this will give the new guy some protection and security to think he can achieve something,also it will give more of a challenge to the attacker,should i stay or should i go now? (burst into song) I dunno,its just an idea, it may have been brought up before and dismissed, it may be good, may be crap,do-able or not,i just think we need to retain new guys on the war server,give them a fighting chance.

Definitely something needs done to help new players. I'd like to see lower ranked captains having a perk or something that puts a beacon on the map for reinforcement IF he is attacked. And I like @William Death suggestion for a warning to pop up for lower rank players once they reach the edge of safety. Maybe it doesn't need to stop the player and force them to acknowledge, but perhaps a popup just explaining the RoE change.

On 3/30/2019 at 4:06 AM, qw569 said:

Are you sure that you played om PVP EU/Caribbean/War server?

I can attest that gringo was on the PvP server, as his Rat Wasa and his Russian friends sank a handful of us Dutch just NW of Willemstad..or maybe that was another night.

[Bull Hull]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:15 PM, William Death said:

Because this is my favorite game. Its the only age of sail combat game that is anything close to "realistic." It allows me to sail with friends, alone, do highly-coordinated operations, or just shoot some bots and look at the beautiful ships. I care about how people play the game because I care about the game and want it to succeed. When I see mechanics implemented that I think will impede its success, I speak out.

This used to be my favorite game.  For years this was my favorite game.  And then the developers started pandering to the hardcore PvPers, then the developers began trying to manipulate everyone into playing as a hardcore PvPer.  I find that manipulation insulting and totally unnecessary.  Instead of narrowing the paradigm by restricting the appeal to a very narrow playing style preference the developers could be broadening that paradigm by appealing to a wide variety of playing styles.  Instead they are focusing on the two extremes of PvE and only PvE all the time or PvP most of the time with little room in between for a mix of preferences.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Obvisouly ran its course because the discussion changed from subject to subject. From mechanic to devs.

Locked.