Lack of R-Zone Makes Sovereign Territorial Waters a Sick Joke

[Hawkwood]

16 minutes ago, Socialism said:

If you think new players who have been in the game for a day or 2 are simply able to move to a “safer” port I’ve got some snake oil to sell ya.

If you think new players have a huge ship which, when being sunk after those 2 days on PVP SERVER, makes them quit, i´ll buy that snake oil.

Capitals are magnets for hunters. Don´t PVE at capitals and mostly you are fine.

[Vernon Merrill]

54 minutes ago, Socialism said:

Define elsewhere?  The peace server?  When you were a noob in the game for 2 days were you capable of packing up and moving from Charleston down to the Bahamas?  They get slaughtered there too.

Theres a distinct reason why this game has very few new players and even fewer new players turning into old players.  It doesn’t guide them or protect them properly.  You’ve seen the cries for help or the assault of questions in nation chat the same as I have.  Almost without exception those players asking for help won’t be there a week later.  The reason why NA population continues to flounder after every patch or release is we simply don’t have new players sticking around to replace the vets who leave.

Safe zones were a half measure and poorly implemented.... proper ROE and mechanics could of been utilized to protect new players within them without allowing vets to abuse them for safety.  The dev team didn’t have the will or ability to do this despite years worth of suggestions.  Most MMO games worth their salt have varied zones of protection to escort their new players to the sandbox to make sure they get hooked.  

If you think new players who have been in the game for a day or 2 are simply able to move to a “safer” port I’ve got some snake oil to sell ya.  

Says the guy in a tricked-out Bellona farming “noobs” on the dock in Charleston with 10 buddies.  

But I get it, you have to “ make a point...”. 

Did you hit the over/under number on how many “R Zone” threads were started here on the forums?

Who knows, maybe 2-3 could have went to KPR, 2-3 went to Morti and 2-3 went to Charleston?   Nah.  Gotta slap those same 8 guys around to prove a point.  

Well done.  

[p i t]

@Vernon Merrill do you ever shut up? Stop criticizing players on forums and provide real feedback for a conversation? 

 

 Socialism brings up a good point this game doesn’t guide new players. I was luckily joined a clan early and admin was right in trying to push new players to join clans. Safe zones don’t do that

[Vernon Merrill]

Are you triggered again, Pit?!

 Admin has provided his reason for removing the “safe zones”...

Whether or not I agree with it is besides the point.   But my bigger point was that instead of stating his case on the forums, he figures it would be far more fun to ruin the gameplay of others to try and prove his point there...,

And for the record, almost completely agree with what William Death posted.  

And also why I advocated for a second starting point port like other nations have.

Player behavior has just as much to do with retention as mechanics do, in my opinion.  Taunting noobs at Charleston, slaughtering them as they come out in inferior ships and then blaming devs has just as big as impact as the actual removal of imagined “safe zones”...

Now back to your gin.  

[p i t]

4 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

 

 Admin has provided his reason for removing the “safe zones”...

Whether or not I agree with it is besides the point.   But my bigger point was that instead of stating his case on the forums, he figures it would be far more fun to ruin the gameplay of others to try and prove his point there...,

And for the record, almost completely agree with what William Death posted.  

And also why I advocated for a second starting point port like other nations have.

Player behavior has just as much to do with retention as mechanics do, in my opinion.  Taunting noobs at Charleston, slaughtering them as they come out in inferior ships and then blaming devs has just as big as impact as the actual removal of imagined “safe zones”...

Now back to your gin.  

Much better response thank you

[Socialism]

1 hour ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Says the guy in a tricked-out Bellona farming “noobs” on the dock in Charleston with 10 buddies.  

But I get it, you have to “ make a point...”. 

Did you hit the over/under number on how many “R Zone” threads were started here on the forums?

Who knows, maybe 2-3 could have went to KPR, 2-3 went to Morti and 2-3 went to Charleston?   Nah.  Gotta slap those same 8 guys around to prove a point.  

Well done.  

Did I start this thread?

I know you barely play, but if you could suggest an area that is busy during US server time when the pop is 130 I’d be glad to hear it.  KPR maybe?

Admin allows us to sail right up to the docks and join capital battles.  That’s what we did.  We even sunk a few people we don’t normally catch in our seal clubbing nets.  KoC is kind of a new though

Your personal and toxic comments derailing every thread grow tiring.  I wish you were a happier person IRL.

 @admin @Hethwill do only VCO members get moderated these days or will something be done about this guys toxicity ruining the forum? 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Socialism

[Bull Hull]

10 hours ago, Galt said:

This is a bit absurd to me, to say that a small number of players should be able to beat a large number of players, just because they are in a certain area is absurd. What I like about this game are the sandbox opportunities. The idea of "sovereign waters" shouldn't really exist in this game. I get why there are, having been single ported to KPR back in the day. IT is inconvenient but if we had deserved to own any more ports, we would have owned them. Play cohesively and you should be fine. To my knowledge, every nation in the game has managed to carve out a few of its own ports, even the yanks are making a bit of a comeback; but they suffer from too much new blood with too many bad leaders. If that's the case, I always steer people away from the US. 

Except that isn't what I'm saying at all.  Nice try with the distortion and misrepresentation.

[Bull Hull]

10 hours ago, Capsize More said:

Noobs and not so noobs ARE getting wrecked, and yes it IS time to blame admin.  If the game becomes less-to-not playable cause you're camped into a harbor, you're enjoyment is indeed "rekt" and its time to go play a different game.  Is it the fault of the hardcore guys that are constantly playing and love seal clubbing and always have a group of at least 4 or 5 ready to go?  No.  It IS admin.   

Actually, both deserve blame.  How to apportion that blame is another matter.  But yeah, I mostly blame the developers.  After all, they incentivize and pander to the hardcore PvP players.

And yep, that's exactly why I've been playing other games a lot more and why when I play this game I play mostly on the PvE server.  While the PvE server also doesn't fit my playing style, it is much less aggravating and far more satisfying than the PvP server.

[Bull Hull]

9 hours ago, William Death said:

You shouldn't. From the time I started playing NA in early 2016 till now, gameplay has always favored those with greater numbers and skill. Thats the way it should be. As Galt points out, it is ridiculous to think a small force should have no issues stopping a bigger force just because of where you are.

Too bad that isn't even close to what I'm saying.  Nice try with the distortion and misrepresentation.

It's ridiculous to think that an entire NATION can't respond effectively to an invasion ONLY because there are only a few or only one player available to defend that nation's core territorial waters.  This game is a tactical and strategic SIMULATION, among other things.  Having an effective R-zone is merely a simple way of SIMULATING how an entire nation can respond in effective force to an invasion of its core territorial waters.  It's ridiculous to think NPC's have to not care when hostiles are invading their territory.  It's ridiculous to think that PvPers will suffer greatly from a lack of PvP opportunities if a paltry percent or two of the map is too hostile for them.  If the developers are going to pander to the hardcore PvPers sooooooooooo much they might as well go all in and do away with R-zones entirely instead of making the whole concept of sovereign territory a pathetic joke.

[Vernon Merrill]

14 minutes ago, Socialism said:

Did I start this thread?

I know you barely play, but if you could suggest an area that is busy during US server time when the pop is 130 I’d be glad to hear it.  KPR maybe?

Admin allows us to sail right up to the docks and join capital battles.  That’s what we did.  We even sunk a few people we don’t normally catch in our seal clubbing nets.  KoC is kind of a new though

Your personal and toxic comments derailing every thread grow tiring.  I wish you were a happier person IRL.

 @admin @Hethwill do only VCO members get moderated these days or will something be done about this guys toxicity ruining the forum? 

Sooooo, yeah.  Basically you admitted that you were trying to prove a point.  

Got it. 

And if by pointing out that player behavior might have an impact on population numbers is being “toxic”, then by all means report me and let them decide.  

There were a ton of small fleets in front of Mortimer as well as LT and KPR last night. Yet you decide to roll heavy into the US and club seals, and then complain about seals being able to be clubbed.  

Who’s the “toxic” one here?

Oh, and there’s also a “block” feature if you don’t want to venture outside your echo chamber of “admin man bad”...

[Bull Hull]

9 hours ago, William Death said:

Because under no circumstances should the game provide safe zones to max rank players who just want to farm AI all day with impunity. Not on the PvP server. 

Why not?  Why the frak do you care so much about how another player prefers to play?  Who the hell made you God to decide how other players should and should not be able to play?  HOW is such a choice infringing upon your choice to play how you want to play?  HOW is such a choice causing harm to you in any way?  MAYBE such players are only practicing to learn how to effectively sail a different or bigger ship? MAYBE such players are only training with each other to develop better teamwork.  MAYBE such players are only grinding their skill boxes.  Taking an unboxed ship out against probably gold and fully unboxes ships makes no sense.  MAYBE such players only want to sail together for the camaraderie and of sailing together?  Again, why the frak do you care so much how other people prefer to play?

Edited March 30, 2019 by Bull Hull

[Bull Hull]

1 hour ago, pit said:

@Vernon Merrill do you ever shut up? Stop criticizing players on forums and provide real feedback for a conversation? 

 

 Socialism brings up a good point this game doesn’t guide new players. I was luckily joined a clan early and admin was right in trying to push new players to join clans. Safe zones don’t do that

So the point of removing the R-zones is to manipulate players into joining clans?  WOW

The way the developers are constantly trying to manipulate us as if we are stupid children who need manipulation into playing how the developers want them to play is whole other can of worms.  Such manipulation is insulting.

[Greysteak]

As a not-so-noob, the only person I can blame for getting wrecked yesterday is me.  Sailing in the wrong ships at the wrong time in the wrong place.

I don't think removing the safe zones was a bad thing.  They weren't very useful to new players anyway.

If you're the only player in your nation and you can't defend your territorial waters, then don't.  Go to a free port and hunt from there, divert attention.  If it's not a hardcore nation, your home ports can't be captured and you generally don't need to be there anyway.  Don't be dumb like me yesterday, only trade in small fast ships around your home waters.

 

 

[p i t]

1 hour ago, Bull Hull said:

So the point of removing the R-zones is to manipulate players into joining clans?  WOW

The way the developers are constantly trying to manipulate us as if we are stupid children who need manipulation into playing how the developers want them to play is whole other can of worms.  Such manipulation is insulting.

Your missed my point, r-zones don’t teach you anything, they don’t make you a better player, they don’t keep retention rate of players. Veteran players helping new players do all these things. Aka joining a clan and learning how to play smartly together. It’s not manipulation if others help prevent you from dying a sad lonely noob death. Keep your r- zones and don’t heed other players advice, you will still die a sad lonely noob death right outside it.

Edited March 30, 2019 by pit

[Beeekonda]

How noobs see R-zone:

How Rear Admirals see it:

Noobs die because of Rear Admirals. They don't learn anything. They are not safe. 

[William Death]

3 hours ago, Bull Hull said:

Too bad that isn't even close to what I'm saying.  Nice try with the distortion and misrepresentation.

It's ridiculous to think that an entire NATION can't respond effectively to an invasion ONLY because there are only a few or only one player available to defend that nation's core territorial waters.  This game is a tactical and strategic SIMULATION, among other things.  Having an effective R-zone is merely a simple way of SIMULATING how an entire nation can respond in effective force to an invasion of its core territorial waters.  It's ridiculous to think NPC's have to not care when hostiles are invading their territory.  It's ridiculous to think that PvPers will suffer greatly from a lack of PvP opportunities if a paltry percent or two of the map is too hostile for them.  If the developers are going to pander to the hardcore PvPers sooooooooooo much they might as well go all in and do away with R-zones entirely instead of making the whole concept of sovereign territory a pathetic joke.

No, I understand what you're saying, I think. You mean that the "Nation" (the entity that all players flying that flag "serve" in game) should provide some defense for itself. Ok, I get that if we assume that the "Nation" is bigger than the sum of its players. But its not. In game, the nation is made up of its players. Russia has X amount of players, therefore the Russian nation is X big (population). Same with Pirates. Same with GB. Same with USA. 

You also speak of a "paltry percent or two of the map" ok, area-wise, yeah the old R-Zones weren't that big. But EVERYONE (almost) was inside them ALL THE TIME (almost). That was the issue. Everyone hiding in zones so there were few/no targets outside of R-Zones to hit. And I don't blame them. Why leave when everything you need is right there and you can even go exploit AI reinforcements to do your "PvP" for you.

I spent a number of hours one day sailing from Tumbado along the coast to Great Corn. Got one or two PvP battles, neither of them "good," as my Connie was more than a match for the enemy. Same story on another trip from Tumbado, looped through the gulf and back to Tumbado again. And again from Aves to Coquibacoa and back again. Never say I didn't try to find PvP outside of R-Zones. Because I did, I tried harder than many players.

3 hours ago, Bull Hull said:

Why not?  Why the frak do you care so much about how another player prefers to play?  Who the hell made you God to decide how other players should and should not be able to play?  HOW is such a choice infringing upon your choice to play how you want to play?  HOW is such a choice causing harm to you in any way?  MAYBE such players are only practicing to learn how to effectively sail a different or bigger ship? MAYBE such players are only training with each other to develop better teamwork.  MAYBE such players are only grinding their skill boxes.  Taking an unboxed ship out against probably gold and fully unboxes ships makes no sense.  MAYBE such players only want to sail together for the camaraderie and of sailing together?  Again, why the frak do you care so much how other people prefer to play?

I could ask you the same childish questions regarding your original post. But I won't because the point of a forum of a game under development is to discuss our opinions of mechanics. If you don't like my opinions thats ok. I personally think a lot of your suggestions are half-baked and would be terrible for a PvP server; but you are 100% allowed to have and share those opinions with the developers on the forums. Just be glad I'm not a developer because my opinions would become hard coded mechanics of the game. Thats all I have to say to the first part of the rant there.  

Perhaps you also didn't notice the part of my post where I said there should be safe zones that are good for 5th rate missions or grinding 5th rate fleets of up to 3 ships. If a Rear Admiral chooses to do PvE on the PvP server, and if he chooses to want to do so with full protection from all enemies, then he can grab one of his frigates and PvE as much as he wants. Or he can even grab his first rate and club AI 5th rate fleets in the capital zone. There is nothing stopping him. But, if he wants to grind that first rate effectively (using larger fleets), he'll have to leave the capital zone to do so. Or choose to play on the PvE server, which is more suited to those who only want to PvE anyways.

There are a lot of choices in that above paragraph to accuse me of trying to force anyone to do any playstyle.

3 hours ago, Bull Hull said:

Taking an unboxed ship out against probably gold and fully unboxes ships makes no sense. 

This part here annoys the **** out of me. Where did I suggest a player should go PvP? I didn't. I merely said they *shouldn't* receive protection from magical AI while they PvE with impunity on a PvP server.

Ultimately, I don't care if you take your first rate to Swannsborough and wait for AI fleets to spawn and attack them. Or Truxillo. Or Bermuda. Or the Gulf. Never did I say a player should take their unboxed ship out and immediately PvP. I simply said that by the time you reach Rear Admiral and have some SOLs, you shouldn't rely on the game to hold your hand all the time. The game should train you some, then push you out into the world to make your way. 

There are places on the map that you know as well as I do are never visited by PvPers. Much of the gulf is dead, especially since the extra French safezone got removed, but plenty of targets. Much of the Spanish Main is quiet if you know where to go. Even parts of the US coast I haven't ventured to in months because I know few/no players are there. 

Or, the player who wants to grind AI can get smart, and do it safely wherever they go. Want to know where I grind AI on the rare occasion I feel like it? St. Marys or Key West. I hop out in my ship, wait to see a fleet sail by that has a higher BR than me (BR really should be displayed in OW). I go out, get ready to tag, have a good look around. If nobody is in sight, I make a good tag where I have the wind. I sail away for the first 2 minutes of the battle. If nobody joins, then I know I'm safely alone in that battle. Nobody can join the enemy side after 2 minutes because the AI have a higher BR than me. Simple. Effective.

And on the last note about gold ships: I have the same RNG chances as you and hate that RNG decides anything in crafting. I begged and pleaded for RNG to stay out of crafting....but I didn't get my way and it looks like RNG is here to stay. Oh well. Get used to the fact that someone pretty much *always* has a better ship than you. Good news is that skill can overcome any fancy ship, if the skill gap is high enough between the skippers.

3 hours ago, Bull Hull said:

Again, why the frak do you care so much how other people prefer to play?

Because this is my favorite game. Its the only age of sail combat game that is anything close to "realistic." It allows me to sail with friends, alone, do highly-coordinated operations, or just shoot some bots and look at the beautiful ships. I care about how people play the game because I care about the game and want it to succeed. When I see mechanics implemented that I think will impede its success, I speak out.

I ultimately want to see a Naval Action where ships aren't so expensive to replace, so that if a player loses his ship, he simply goes to port and grabs another to get right back at it. It shouldn't take weeks of grinding to afford a single ship that is lost so easily in a gank. But at the same time, there needs to be some risk, some reward for players who PvP.

So the game needs to provide areas for new players to get started, learn to sail their ships, fight bots, figure out how basic crafting and trading is going to work, and get an idea of how PvP is going to work. Then the game should encourage them to go out into the world and put their skills to use. Like pushing the young birds out of the nest when they're ready. The safezone is always there for them to fall back on, even as Rear Admirals....but they'll never see as much rewards (at the max levels) inside the zone as they would if they venture out into the world and carve out an existence somewhere. 

Does that sound so bad?

[William Death]

9 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

@William Death, I agree with your entire post above and applaud it for clear and common sense thinking....except this bit that I've quoted.  I simply don't see a down side if a high ranked player wants to use a safe area to farm ai.  I feel like a lot of players will not switch back and forth between servers and if they are forced to the PVE, they may not come back very often.  Let em stay on PVP and have their carebear time.  They'll eventually come out with all that AI killing experience....

Oh I agree, the high ranked players should have a safe spot to farm AI. But they'll have to do it in frigates, or be content fighting small frigate fleets with their SOLs. The game should reward those who leave the zone. If my suggestions were implemented, the rewards for leaving the zones would be more and larger fleets to grind, less competition for those fleets, etc. See:

2 minutes ago, William Death said:

the part of my post where I said there should be safe zones that are good for 5th rate missions or grinding 5th rate fleets of up to 3 ships. If a Rear Admiral chooses to do PvE on the PvP server, and if he chooses to want to do so with full protection from all enemies, then he can grab one of his frigates and PvE as much as he wants. Or he can even grab his first rate and club AI 5th rate fleets in the capital zone. There is nothing stopping him. But, if he wants to grind that first rate effectively (using larger fleets), he'll have to leave the capital zone to do so. Or choose to play on the PvE server, which is more suited to those who only want to PvE anyways.

Also, maybe XP should be linked between the servers again? I never saw an issue with it before....but maybe I haven't thought that through all the way.... I never really bothered because I didn't want the hassle of maintaining ship and cannon and funding supply on both servers. 

[Sang Noir]

4 hours ago, Bull Hull said:

So the point of removing the R-zones is to manipulate players into joining clans?  WOW 

The way the developers are constantly trying to manipulate us as if we are stupid children who need manipulation into playing how the developers want them to play is whole other can of worms.  Such manipulation is insulting.

It's been going on like this for the past almost 2 years that I joined. There's one group of - let's call them - 'excessive players' who are trying to come up with new ways to torture casual players and a dev team that is basically siding with them. Alongside a culture that established itself with players who are not 'tough enough' being called derogatory names.

 

3 hours ago, pit said:

Veteran players helping new players do all these things. Aka joining a clan and learning how to play smartly together.

Well, that's actually like manipulating grown up independent adults into joining your cult.

 

 

[Snoopy]

Sealclubbing hapless captains inside of capitals isn't PvP. There are no risks. You might as well cap an AI ship. A duellist wants risks in the fight, slaughtering noobs has none of that.

Worse still, it will make a terrible impression on new players and the last thing we need is fewer of those. Capital protections were introduced for a reason, and it seems those reasons are still valid.

[Sir Texas Sir]

On 3/30/2019 at 8:19 AM, Hawkwood said:

Capitals are magnets for hunters. Don´t PVE at capitals and mostly you are fine.

You prob don't deal with new players much do you?  Every time we tell them to leave the capital waters and come to some other area or just move north we hear things like:  Your a coward, why not fight them?  This is your capital they shouldn't be in our waters.   etc etc....some just won't leave or understand the concept that you can't just jump into every fight and win.  Most the time they never win and many of us vets get tired of trying to save them from ganks that we don't come out to help.  That and many of us don't even have capitals as a port any more so we couldn't if we wanted too.  

So yah I'm going to take it your not in a clan that deals with a lot of recruitment of new players?

[Meraun]

On 3/30/2019 at 11:17 AM, Angus MacDuff said:

  If 12 Russians are camped at KPR in 1st rates, they are not looking for noobs to crush.  They are waiting for the biggest nation in the game to come out and fight.

But the biggest Nation didnt anyway...

[Vernon Merrill]

I'll never understand why people think they can roll out in 10 SOL's and actually expect to get consistent fights.....   I keep hearing about all these mythical "Trafalgar" battles that everyone supposedly wants....   and yet, they never really happen.  

 

[Angus MacDuff]

35 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Most the time they never win and many of us vets get tired of trying to save them from ganks that we don't come out to help. 

 

24 minutes ago, Meraun said:

But the biggest Nation didnt anyway...

This is something that hasn't really been covered and its important to the whole noob protection, R zone conversation.  Players simply don't choose to come out and protect capitol/national waters.  When the big groups show up on the doorstep, the experienced players know that unless you have an equally balanced group with good comms, you're dead.  The big capitol battles that I have seen are swarming with inexperienced players, getting in each other's way and providing targets for the invaders.  Many vets avoid capitol battles like the plague.  

[van Veen]

The problem is that the game rewards kills, no matter what. No matter if you kill a noob, no matter if you kill a superior force. It's just the kill that counts. So everybody just wants to kill anyone, no matter what. 

Simple solution, proposed many times over and over again: Renown is the meta currency that should be in the game. Combat medals and victory marks should be merged to renown. Renown reward is variable. Kill someone with higher renown and you should get more renown yourself. Fight a battle vs higher BR and you should receive renown, higher even if you survive. 

 

[Socialism]

26 minutes ago, van Veen said:

The problem is that the game rewards kills, no matter what. No matter if you kill a noob, no matter if you kill a superior force. It's just the kill that counts. So everybody just wants to kill anyone, no matter what. 

Simple solution, proposed many times over and over again: Renown is the meta currency that should be in the game. Combat medals and victory marks should be merged to renown. Renown reward is variable. Kill someone with higher renown and you should get more renown yourself. Fight a battle vs higher BR and you should receive renown, higher even if you survive. 

 

Rewards should be the ship and whatever it's got on it.  I've disliked rewarding players for PVP kills with shiny marks or gold coins since the very start.  All it did is turn PVP into a yet another grind to get more and more marks.