Lack of R-Zone Makes Sovereign Territorial Waters a Sick Joke

[Bull Hull]

Pandering to the hardcore PvP players who want PvP and nothing but PvP has, once again, made the concept of sovereign national waters a pathetic joke.  Previously, the R-zone was a joke, but now that joke is pathetic.  A nation of one player should be able to defend ALL of that nation's foundational sovereign waters rather than only the capital - PERIOD.  Whether that one player is the attacker or the defender should be totally irrelevant.  When hostile foreign ships are sailing in hostile sovereign territorial waters every nation, regardless of how many players are in that nation, should be able to defend its territorial waters by being able to call for enough reinforcements to make such a defense feasible - PERIOD.  A nation of only a few players, or a nation with only a few players online, should be able to defend ALL of that nation's foundational sovereign waters and not only the capital - PERIOD.  Whether those few players are the attackers or the defenders, and whether they are defending their waters alone or as a group, should be totally irrelevant.  When hostile foreign ships are sailing in sovereign territorial waters every nation, regardless of how many players are in that nation or online at any given time, should be able to defend its territorial waters by being able to call for enough reinforcements to make such a defense feasible.  Limiting sovereign national waters to only the capital stupidly makes small nations and even medium or big nations with only a few players online untenable.  Making it difficult if not impossible for one or a few players to effectively defend territorial waters from invaders by attacking those invaders makes the concept of sovereign territorial waters a pathetic joke, and again makes small nations untenable.

If I'm the only player in my nation and I cannot defend my territorial waters against invaders why in the hell should I play that nation?  If I'm the only player in my nation online and I cannot defend my territorial waters against invaders why in the hell should I or anyone else play that nation?

The way the developers keep making it easy for hostile ships/navies to sail with impunity in foreign territorial waters, the way the developers keep pandering to hardcore PvP players, spits in the eyes of every other style of play other players might prefer.  HOW in the world does giving nations more than only a small area around its capital as fairly safe and defensible territory rationally qualify as giving countries with either a few players (i.e. small countries) or a lot of players (i.e. big countries) too much of an R-zone? HOW in the world does giving nations at least one or two counties worth of relatively safe and defensible coastline rationally qualify as giving countries with either a few players (i.e. small countries) or a lot of players (i.e. big countries) too much of an R-zone?  Having access to 96% of the map open for a PvP free-for-all is not enough?  Having access to 97% of the map open for a PvP free-for-all is not enough? Having access to 98% of the map open for a PvP free-for-all is not enough?  Having access to 99% of the map open for a PvP free-for-all is not enough?  The developers might as well give the hard core PvPers the entire map with no reinforcement zones and be done with it.

Unfortunately, the developers keep making it more and more clear that players who prefer a playing style somewhere in between the two extremes of hard core PvP or PvE are an after thought at best, IF they are even an after thought.  Naval Action had already devolved into Naval Gank Fest.  Now Naval Action is devolving into a worse Naval Gank Fest.  Other arbitrary, unnecessary, and sometimes irrational changes are turning Naval Action into Naval Fantasy Action, but those issues are topics for other discussions. This game used to have tremendous potential as a tactical war game simulator and a strategic war game simulator that could have broad appeal to players with a wide variety of playing styles.  Now, as the developers pander to hard core PvP players and thumb their nose at everyone else, it is a shadow of that glorious potential.  Sad

[Socialism]

I'm on your side bud.  thought the reinforcement zones should be expanded and 100% safe + a litany of other game mechanics that would require effort but organically encourage players to leave the zones.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Socialism

[cmdrbobcito]

When I joined this testing operation almost 4 years ago it was with the understanding  and stated intent of the Dev's  it was not going to be another failed contender for the wreckage crown of POTBS.  Looks like that intent has been set aside....good luck with sizing that crown Dudes...o7

[Beeekonda]

shortly about topic: Noobs getting rekt, time to blame Admin

[Galt]

This is a bit absurd to me, to say that a small number of players should be able to beat a large number of players, just because they are in a certain area is absurd. What I like about this game are the sandbox opportunities. The idea of "sovereign waters" shouldn't really exist in this game. I get why there are, having been single ported to KPR back in the day. IT is inconvenient but if we had deserved to own any more ports, we would have owned them. Play cohesively and you should be fine. To my knowledge, every nation in the game has managed to carve out a few of its own ports, even the yanks are making a bit of a comeback; but they suffer from too much new blood with too many bad leaders. If that's the case, I always steer people away from the US. 

[Capsize More]

Noobs and not so noobs ARE getting wrecked, and yes it IS time to blame admin.  If the game becomes less-to-not playable cause you're camped into a harbor, you're enjoyment is indeed "rekt" and its time to go play a different game.  Is it the fault of the hardcore guys that are constantly playing and love seal clubbing and always have a group of at least 4 or 5 ready to go?  No.  It IS admin.   

[Sir Texas Sir]

A big problem is not every one is on the forums or see patch notes.  They should be posted on the log in screen.  I bet a lot of those that got farmed today, but not all didn’t even know the zones where removed.

thoughb got to day combatneew was all over the place bout capital zone kills.

[William Death]

4 hours ago, Bull Hull said:

If I'm the only player in my nation and I cannot defend my territorial waters against invaders why in the hell should I play that nation?  If I'm the only player in my nation online and I cannot defend my territorial waters against invaders why in the hell should I or anyone else play that nation?

You shouldn't. From the time I started playing NA in early 2016 till now, gameplay has always favored those with greater numbers and skill. Thats the way it should be. As Galt points out, it is ridiculous to think a small force should have no issues stopping a bigger force just because of where you are.

Blackbeard blockaded Charleston with his ship(s). The colonists didn't get magical help from first rates because the pirates sailed to Charleston. Why should you? 
Thats the way multiplayer games work when RvR and PvP content is based on numbers.

Fleet up and get good or get wrecked. The good news? EVERY nation faces this issue. You might *think* its just the US that has this problem, but all the time pirates get sunk outside Mortimer, Brits outside KPR, Swedes, Dutch, Danes, French, etc. all suffer the same fate. Step 1: don't be a victim: "My capital is not my home, I should get as far away from my capital as soon as I can, and find my own spot to call home." Acknowledge that and you'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the noobs getting farmed every day in front of their capital.

 

 

But beyond that bit, I agree with some of the sentiment, new/learning players should have some excellent protection. But only those players. Rear Admirals grinding their SOLs for money or whatever deserve ZERO protection.

So, fixes:

• Have the capital zone expanded by 50% of what it currently is, and go back to old capital zone ROE (100% safety, no enemies can join or tag you).
• Remove all fleets from it larger than 3x 5th rates,
• Make all missions 5th rate and under spawn inside that zone. 
• Have the new player's ships automatically stop at the edge of their capital zone, a popup window with rules of engagement clearly explained that they must acknowledge before they leave the zone for the first time. 

...And thats it. 

New/learning players are protected, and veterans who want to do a bit of safe and quiet PvE have their spot to do it at. But if they choose to do PvE on the PvP server, and expect that 100% safety...then they'll be fighting, at most, 3x 5th rates at a time (or doing 5th rate missions). Because under no circumstances should the game provide safe zones to max rank players who just want to farm AI all day with impunity. Not on the PvP server. 

There is a perfectly functional (and now, as I'm told, populated) PvE server for those players who wish for 100% safety whilst shooting bots in ships of all sizes. On the PvP server, there should be a safety net for new players and players who just want to log in real quick for a battle or two. But I say again, no player should get a place where game mechanics protect them while they use their first rates to grind AI fleets. Or a place where they can trade with impunity. Or where they can exploit ROE to trap players in one-sided fights and rely on AI reinforcements to rake in the kills (see the "tactics" used by the usual suspects outside St. Marys that involved tagging then sailing into the R. Zone during the tag).

 

Do the above suggestions, and make ships more easily available again (all wood types growable in capturable ports, no ridiculously expensive permits, no massive grind required to afford said ships), and many of the game's problems concerning both PvP and population will be solved. 

[Capitalism]

Have to agree with the general sentiment... Is this good for the game?

https://i.gyazo.com/6883053f02fb1db335a421f2f54265d8.png

I doubt it.  There should be no-PvP zones for all of the non-hardcore nations, with limited, no ship-loss PvP zones for everyone to participate in, and nul-sec zones for the hardcore.  Anything else is just not healthy in my opinion.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Capitalism

[Barbancourt]

34 minutes ago, William Death said:

Step 1: don't be a victim: "My capital is not my home, I should get as far away from my capital as soon as I can, and find my own spot to call home." Acknowledge that and you'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the noobs getting farmed every day in front of their capital.

Nations that are unable to sail together die very quickly. The capital should be the place to do that, because it really isn't going to happen anywhere else.  People need a place to be able to do some basic group activities, or they just stop logging in. 

[Gringo69rus]

well online 300 Thursday and 378 Friday which i see but you need more salt and cry)))

P.S. - I got about 9 fights for 4 hours and the one who drowned got all the doubloons and good modules

[qw569😳]

31 minutes ago, Gringo69rus said:

well online 300 Thursday and 378 Friday which i see but you need more salt and cry)))

Are you sure that you played om PVP EU/Caribbean/War server?

[Gringo69rus]

14 минут назад qw569 сказал:

Вы уверены, что играли на сервере PVP EU / Caribbean / War?

Стрим Реверса посмотри там виден онлайн игроков

Edited March 30, 2019 by Gringo69rus

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, qw569 said:

Are you sure that you played om PVP EU/Caribbean/War server?

Last night before I left for work it was 9pm my time and US prime time.  Only 160 online and 5 of those where mine.  So let’s think how many more alts and it’s kore like 100.  I haven seen EU prime go over 400 in ages and that is bad number a for a time that normally has 500-600 players on a weekend easly.

[Angus MacDuff]

4 hours ago, Capsize More said:

Noobs and not so noobs ARE getting wrecked, and yes it IS time to blame admin.  If the game becomes less-to-not playable cause you're camped into a harbor, you're enjoyment is indeed "rekt" and its time to go play a different game.  Is it the fault of the hardcore guys that are constantly playing and love seal clubbing and always have a group of at least 4 or 5 ready to go?  No.  It IS admin.   

If the wolves are camped around capitols, then there are a multitude of ports available to turn into a base of operations.  There is no need to go to your capitol now with the trade missions and consuming ports around the map.  If 12 Russians are camped at KPR in 1st rates, they are not looking for noobs to crush.  They are waiting for the biggest nation in the game to come out and fight.

[Angus MacDuff]

3 hours ago, William Death said:

Because under no circumstances should the game provide safe zones to max rank players who just want to farm AI all day with impunity. Not on the PvP server.

@William Death, I agree with your entire post above and applaud it for clear and common sense thinking....except this bit that I've quoted.  I simply don't see a down side if a high ranked player wants to use a safe area to farm ai.  I feel like a lot of players will not switch back and forth between servers and if they are forced to the PVE, they may not come back very often.  Let em stay on PVP and have their carebear time.  They'll eventually come out with all that AI killing experience....

[Chieftain]

Ok,R-zones removed,new player comes on to explore,practice,learn = insta gank by elitest vets(with an ego the size of a small african nation  ) Result,new guy sunk,ship gone,monies gone,didn't know what hit him,he may try again,same result,logs off and goe's play something else.The newbie may have come from pve server thinking yeah i can do the same on war server with the added pvp content,he thinks he knows how to sail,trade and fight,but reality is ,its a whole new ball game on war server!If the new guy can't achieve anything then he gonna leave and this game NEEDS more new guys because if they don't stay,then who are the pvpers gonna sink? If they have no-one to sink,then eventually they gonna leave and find another game to play.The game needs to retain new guys so that they can be the new pvpers but they need some sort of protection to at least mid rank.

So ,if the Devs don't want r-zones along with some players then how about a reinforcement perk for lower mid rank players? So if the new guy is sailing along in OW and gets jumped,he can call in his reinforcement ship,rate equivelent to the attacker.this will give the new guy some protection and security to think he can achieve something,also it will give more of a challenge to the attacker,should i stay or should i go now? (burst into song) I dunno,its just an idea, it may have been brought up before and dismissed, it may be good, may be crap,do-able or not,i just think we need to retain new guys on the war server,give them a fighting chance.

[Steele OooOoOOoOOOooooOOOO]

How about full epic BR f8 reinforcement .Atleast or first rate rienforcements,then the new players can test their skills on raking the sterns,the AI go right into the Capitol Harbors ,so theres really no shortage on safety unless you brave the fair winds outside the R zone..

[Teutonic]

Taking the reinforcement zone out was a bad choice.

[Sven Silberbart]

Yesterday, we sailed in a group of 4 to the french "Sovereign Territorial Waters". We played as a wolfpack and spotted a lone trader in an indiaman. It is a war and he was saiing without escort. Great target, so we started the attack. It was Deep in French Waters and the trader captain was clever enough to use the fort for himself. After some attacks we had to cancel because of heavily damage from the fort. That was absolutely enough protection to keep the traders captain alive. The captains should learn to sail clever routes and use their lookout intead of calling for magic rf zones! 

After that battle the captain was attacked a second time, because he did not dock to nearby port, instead he was sailing away. This time he was a bit more far away form fort. After 5 minutes or something his reinforments joined. Two lineships very close to us. We were heavily in danger. The hunters becomes the hunted ones. One or two ships more and I think our whole hunting group would have sunk. In that constillation we needed to play as best as we can. Yes we managed to sink the trader and escaped all ships, but that was because of some mistakes of our enemies.

As you can see, to be a hunter isnt easy mode if the enemies do well and wise

@admin : This is the game i want to see. Removing the RF Zones was a great decision and i am very lucky about that.

In Addition: protecting newbees could be better. they should not be the Targets all the time. But how to differ from a real newbee and the 10th alt account of a Veteran?

Edited March 30, 2019 by Sven Silberbart

[Hawkwood]

8 minutes ago, Sven Silberbart said:

Yesterday, we sailed in a group of 4 to the french "Sovereign Territorial Waters". We played as a wolfpack and spotted a lone trader in an indiaman. It is a war and he was saiing without escort. Great target, so we started the attack. It was Deep in French Waters and the trader captain was clever enough to use the fort for himself. After some attacks we had to cancel because of heavily damage form fort. That was absolutely enough protection to keep the traders captain alive. The captains should learn to sail clever routes and use their lookout intead of calling for magic rf zones! 

After that battle the captain was attacked a second time, because he did not dock to nearby port, instead he was sailing away. This time he was a bit more far away form fort. After 5 minutes or something his reinforments joined. Two lineships very close to us. We were heavily in danger. The hunters becomes the hunted ones. One or two ships more an i think our whole hunting group would have sunk. In that constillation we needed to Play as best as we can. Yes we managed to sink the trader and escaped all ships, but that was because of some mistakes of our enemies.

As you can see, to be a hunter isnt easy mode if the enemies do well and wise

@admin : This is the game i want to see. Removing the RF Zones was a great decision and i am very lucky about that.

In Addition: protecting newbees could be better. they should not be the Targets all the time. But how to differ from a real newbee and the 10th alt account of a Veteran?

Very nice description. Thanks for sharing.

[Vizzini]

13 minutes ago, Sven Silberbart said:

Yesterday, we sailed in a group of 4 to the french "Sovereign Territorial Waters". We played as a wolfpack and spotted a lone trader in an indiaman. It is a war and he was saiing without escort. Great target, so we started the attack. It was Deep in French Waters and the trader captain was clever enough to use the fort for himself. After some attacks we had to cancel because of heavily damage from the fort. That was absolutely enough protection to keep the traders captain alive. The captains should learn to sail clever routes and use their lookout intead of calling for magic rf zones! 

After that battle the captain was attacked a second time, because he did not dock to nearby port, instead he was sailing away. This time he was a bit more far away form fort. After 5 minutes or something his reinforments joined. Two lineships very close to us. We were heavily in danger. The hunters becomes the hunted ones. One or two ships more an i think our whole hunting group would have sunk. In that constillation we needed to Play as best as we can. Yes we managed to sink the trader and escaped all ships, but that was because of some mistakes of our enemies.

As you can see, to be a hunter isnt easy mode if the enemies do well and wise

@admin : This is the game i want to see. Removing the RF Zones was a great decision and i am very lucky about that.

In Addition: protecting newbees could be better. they should not be the Targets all the time. But how to differ from a real newbee and the 10th alt account of a Veteran?

Yeah as one of those called out to help and fight, it's all good. Most of us have played with no help zones before and will be quicker to adapt than those who haven't had to contend with no help or being able to trade and farm ai all day every day

We made some mistakes and were slower or you wouldn't have been so lucky. The recent trials and tribulations of the French nation will force those left to learn their Darwin.

 

I play the game as admin intends until i no longer find it fun. I just wish you sunk the spies as often as you sink my clan mates :P

 

 

[Hawkwood]

37 minutes ago, Sven Silberbart said:

In Addition: protecting newbees could be better. they should not be the Targets all the time. But how to differ from a real newbee and the 10th alt account of a Veteran?

For this additional sentence, my previous like was removed.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Hawkwood

[Hawkwood]

45 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Taking the reinforcement zone out was a bad choice.

It wasn´t. If "noobs" don´t feel safe at their capital, let them go elsewhere and do PVE.That´s the whole point of removing them.

[Socialism]

59 minutes ago, Hawkwood said:

It wasn´t. If "noobs" don´t feel safe at their capital, let them go elsewhere and do PVE.That´s the whole point of removing them.

Define elsewhere?  The peace server?  When you were a noob in the game for 2 days were you capable of packing up and moving from Charleston down to the Bahamas?  They get slaughtered there too.

Theres a distinct reason why this game has very few new players and even fewer new players turning into old players.  It doesn’t guide them or protect them properly.  You’ve seen the cries for help or the assault of questions in nation chat the same as I have.  Almost without exception those players asking for help won’t be there a week later.  The reason why NA population continues to flounder after every patch or release is we simply don’t have new players sticking around to replace the vets who leave.

Safe zones were a half measure and poorly implemented.... proper ROE and mechanics could of been utilized to protect new players within them without allowing vets to abuse them for safety.  The dev team didn’t have the will or ability to do this despite years worth of suggestions.  Most MMO games worth their salt have varied zones of protection to escort their new players to the sandbox to make sure they get hooked.  

If you think new players who have been in the game for a day or 2 are simply able to move to a “safer” port I’ve got some snake oil to sell ya.