Change the ROE please.

[Angus MacDuff]

Just now, Wyy said:

wut? admin, an honest question, are you planning a game for 300 players peak time or 1500-2k players? its understandable with the 20 min timer because you rarely see players, but i can only imagine how many swords i will see with maybe 1000 battles around on the map

I would never initiate a combat

[HachiRoku]

1 hour ago, admin said:

That IS the roe yes.
20 mins is a lot if you have kids, or a job. 

And crafting ships doesn't take time? I mean I always defended the time people need to get things done since I always thought naval action was a hardcore simulation game. If you care so much about fast pvp you should bring back small battles. You are ruining the sandbox because you cannot achieve a "matchmaking" lobby based instances with this Roe. Somehow I have the feeling you are so afraid people will enjoy the lobby based battled more than the sandbox so you remove them from the game. There is no reason from a technical standpoint not to have the duel rooms and small battles back. I have been playing games for 20 Years now and I assure you that a game that trys to be to many things at once will fail. It's lobby or sandbox. I thought you made that choice 5 years ago. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Solo PvP zone should happen in a different area.

For example: normal patrol in La Mona while solo patrol is in Aves. Both change locations every day so everyone can enjoy them.

I know a way I would make a SOLO PvP Zone.

Move the Pirates capital to Nassua or better yet make them one of the hard core nations like they should be any way.  

Turn Mortimer Town and the area around it Neutral ports like the old PItt's and other ports.  Any one can use them any one can have outpost in them.   Than make a zone around them that is SOLO PvP only.  You can still run in there and do econ around the area, but you risk getting jumped but only by one ship.  It would turn the area into a central melting pot of PvP.  Cause even if you want to do group PvP you can meet and than go out side of the zone.  Other wise it's just you and the other guy.  I would say fleets are allowed though (so folks don't try to do the smuggle goods t hing).  Added thought this zone could allow all to use admiralty shop too so that even if hard core nations get ported they can still come back here and use the shops.  Maybe only in Mortimer Town.   The other three ports could be a flipped as neutral or captured able, but Mort needs to be neutral to all but not a true free town.

Since La Tort is close I would make that a captured port and move the Free town over to La Navasse as we kinda seem to have  a shortage of free towns in that area. 

[Mr. Doran]

3 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Dude, TDA is dead and has been dead for the better part of 2 years....  The difference is when the game's ROE changed, and became something where bigger was always better, regarding ships and group sizes, most decided it was against their idea of fun and drifted away instead of staying on the forums and raging.  

There's a few that still pop in every now and then (Pada, Hugh, DeRuyter...), but the big focus on RvR as core content in 2017 really did us in....

The  point isn't TDA. TDA is just an example of the type of mentality that makes me "think" they want this type of ganktastic ROE and how quickly that mentality can be flipped around once there are far bigger groups out there. Like I say in another post:

On 3/9/2019 at 4:46 PM, Mr. Doran said:

Yeah, five minute timers or what have you is all fun in games until those who support it get jumped by 15 guys they had no chance of seeing post tag. TDA will forever be the poster child example of this. Almost every single one of them called me insane for saying one/two minute timers is the only way you can possibly make it fair. So many of their members then, much like people do on the forum today, rationalizing how jumping an instance with people well beyond the render range is some logistical feat that can only be matched by the Allied invasion of Normandy. Always logistics and organization was the usual argument... until much larger clans like SLRN came along and started attacking them. Then they realized, their "logistics", their "planning", only ever applied to whoever could field the most amount of people on the OS. 

 

It's the same "reasons" people hide behind today. "Logistics", "planning", and "organization".

2 hours ago, admin said:

Thats a beautiful map
But it's also a game. This circles are irrelevant from the game perspective. To test the hypothesis you just need to take your idea to the extreme. Imagine the game with realistic speeds both on OW and in Instances. (Where it would take 2-3 hours to reach La Navasse from Port royal. It would be amazing for a solo player or any player DURING battles, but won't be great between those battles.

 

Well, now its currently just shit for anyone who is not fielding high numbers between or DURING battles. 

[DeRuyter]

1 hour ago, Mr. Doran said:

The  point isn't TDA. TDA is just an example of the type of mentality that makes me "think" they want this type of ganktastic ROE and how quickly that mentality can be flipped around once there are far bigger groups out there. Like I say in another post:

 

It's the same "reasons" people hide behind today. "Logistics", "planning", and "organization".

 

Well, now its currently just shit for anyone who is not fielding high numbers between or DURING battles. 

No TDA was with few exceptions always in favor of a more WYSIWYG ROE. That mentality didn't start or change because of bigger clans. We always had solo and small group players, many of which left because of the revenge gank fleets. Prater felt your 30 second ROE was too short but remember his diagram which has been since quoted a number of times? That when everyone thought 10 minutes was too long. Now we have 20 minutes. That said I think I think we are on the same page here. 

 

[manuva85]

29 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

No TDA was with few exceptions always in favor of a more WYSIWYG ROE. That mentality didn't start or change because of bigger clans. We always had solo and small group players, many of which left because of the revenge gank fleets. Prater felt your 30 second ROE was too short but remember his diagram which has been since quoted a number of times? That when everyone thought 10 minutes was too long. Now we have 20 minutes. That said I think I think we are on the same page here. 

 

I see this as solo hunter vs small group hunters argument, dont change the point that 2 minutes timers were the healthiest roe we ever tested. And we did test a lot, i think i might be missing admins point of view to test even more. What is the point if they are clearly missing the point, Maybe we might get premium roe dlc. 

[Mr. Doran]

2 hours ago, DeRuyter said:

No TDA was with few exceptions always in favor of a more WYSIWYG ROE. That mentality didn't start or change because of bigger clans. We always had solo and small group players, many of which left because of the revenge gank fleets. Prater felt your 30 second ROE was too short but remember his diagram which has been since quoted a number of times? That when everyone thought 10 minutes was too long. Now we have 20 minutes. That said I think I think we are on the same page here. 

 

Prater was vehemently opposed to any reasonable close timer along with most TDA who posted when we had NO close timer; i'd go did up posts but NW has the habit of deleting Prater's sperging. I still remember the lunatic arguments trying to equate real examples of force concentration to the type of ganking that could be pulled off. TDA was the largest clan at the time so it wasn't shocking. When the doors opened up and that no longer the case he and others did an about face pretty fast. It is not an attack on character but only an example to show people only want insane ROE when they are on the firing end of the power dynamic. 

[King of Crowns]

11 hours ago, admin said:

Thats a beautiful map
But it's also a game. This circles are irrelevant from the game perspective. To test the hypothesis you just need to take your idea to the extreme. Imagine the game with realistic speeds both on OW and in Instances. (Where it would take 2-3 hours to reach La Navasse from Port royal. It would be amazing for a solo player or any player DURING battles, but won't be great between those battles.

SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT WORLD. cut that map down to nothing but jamacia to morti get rid of instanced combat and call it a game. #dropanut

people already spend 8 hours sailing across the map anyways because its stupidly big for no reason. 

[Bull Hull]

10 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

We're talking about OW ROE.  I think it is different in the R-Zones

Except Teutonic explicitly mentions reinforcements in the context of a perk, and requesting reinforcements (which seems like a perk) is only available in the R-zone.  Teutonic does not specify getting reinforcements from other players, and this has nothing to do with any perk that I've heard of.

[Mr. Doran]

23 hours ago, Wyy said:

@admin

do you consider this good pvp and healthy for the game? maybe there is a reason people switch over to pve server other then the wipe?

Functioning as intended. 

[Angus MacDuff]

8 hours ago, Bull Hull said:

Except Teutonic explicitly mentions reinforcements in the context of a perk, and requesting reinforcements (which seems like a perk) is only available in the R-zone.  Teutonic does not specify getting reinforcements from other players, and this has nothing to do with any perk that I've heard of.

We might have a misunderstanding here.  Perk?  I think that was used out of context.  You request reinforcements on chat (radio teletype!!) or by TS/Discord (Satphone!!).  Then said reinforcements have 20 minutes to leave port and sail to your location, which, because of OW time compression would be more than a week's sailing in RL.  In game reality that can be from Jamaica to Haiti.  The ability to reinforce your mates in the R-Zone is not being attacked here and nobody wants to take that away.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Angus MacDuff

[Teutonic]

10 hours ago, Bull Hull said:

Except Teutonic explicitly mentions reinforcements in the context of a perk, and requesting reinforcements (which seems like a perk) is only available in the R-zone.  Teutonic does not specify getting reinforcements from other players, and this has nothing to do with any perk that I've heard of.

 

1 hour ago, Angus MacDuff said:

We might have a misunderstanding here.  Perk?  I think that was used out of context.  You request reinforcements on chat (radio teletype!!) or by TS/Discord (Satphone!!).  Then said reinforcements have 20 minutes to leave port and sail to your location, which, because of OW time compression would be more than a week's sailing in RL.  In game reality that can be from Jamaica to Haiti.  The ability to reinforce your mates in the R-Zone is not being attacked here and nobody wants to take that away.

I used the term perk poorly.

I meant in the context of RoE

The capital zones are what they are. I am talking about when someone attacks a player - the RoE should not have it so the attacker get's the reinforcement RoE if they have lower BR.

 

In the R and C zones it's entirely different and we are not talking about them. I just as well assumed we all meant battles outside the zone.

[DeRuyter]

19 hours ago, Mr. Doran said:

Prater was vehemently opposed to any reasonable close timer along with most TDA who posted when we had NO close timer; i'd go did up posts but NW has the habit of deleting Prater's sperging. I still remember the lunatic arguments trying to equate real examples of force concentration to the type of ganking that could be pulled off. TDA was the largest clan at the time so it wasn't shocking. When the doors opened up and that no longer the case he and others did an about face pretty fast. It is not an attack on character but only an example to show people only want insane ROE when they are on the firing end of the power dynamic. 

Maybe I missed the Prater you are talking about, although I have been around since 2015 and talked with him on TS about join timers at the time. The long close timers certainly don't favor a solo hunter which is what he did more often than not (in a Lynx). That post about the 10 minute join timers and travel times was made fairly early on in the OW development after all. Despite what you may think about TDA most of us were on the realism/history end of the spectrum and favored a shorter join timer. 

Argument about TDA aside, my point is that we when through a long join timer test and now we have one that is double the open time. I realize you have been against this from the beginning and I agree. The ROE we have now favors the clan zerg over solo players or small groups. Factor in an increase in population on release and battles in some areas of the map will be uncertain and chaotic affairs. Here we have gameplay trumping a hardcore realism approach in a major way, while also having hardcore ship replacement and economy, unless you buy DLC ships. One does not go with the other. 

At least we now have the duel room except that you have to sail through a gank zone to get to it. Better if it was in a separate area, seems that would be simple to implement. 

[Angus MacDuff]

Realism v gameplay is at odds here.  With the damage model being quite realistic (or maybe even too real for some) and the join timer being incredibly unrealistic, what you get is fresh ships joining a battle in which the initiating ships can be heavily damaged. 

[Mr. Doran]

4 hours ago, DeRuyter said:

Maybe I missed the Prater you are talking about, although I have been around since 2015 and talked with him on TS about join timers at the time. The long close timers certainly don't favor a solo hunter which is what he did more often than not (in a Lynx). That post about the 10 minute join timers and travel times was made fairly early on in the OW development after all. Despite what you may think about TDA most of us were on the realism/history end of the spectrum and favored a shorter join timer. 

Argument about TDA aside, my point is that we when through a long join timer test and now we have one that is double the open time. I realize you have been against this from the beginning and I agree. The ROE we have now favors the clan zerg over solo players or small groups. Factor in an increase in population on release and battles in some areas of the map will be uncertain and chaotic affairs. Here we have gameplay trumping a hardcore realism approach in a major way, while also having hardcore ship replacement and economy, unless you buy DLC ships. One does not go with the other. 

At least we now have the duel room except that you have to sail through a gank zone to get to it. Better if it was in a separate area, seems that would be simple to implement. 

We don't disagree the ROE is cancer. It is obvious that doing anything other than ganking is pretty close to suicide at this point with survival chances of not being swarmed coming down to nothing but luck. As you say  and Jodgi usually puts it, it's like trying to shoe-horn in shitty match-making into an OW sandbox. And obviously, until revenge fleets are addressed, we could have two minute close timers and nothing else and it would still be a shit-show for anyone who wasn't ganking.  

 

 

It is surprising really that more people have not outright admitted to want option A. 

[Marquês do Bonfim]

You guys need to also balance the person's choice to join a already started battle to just gain an easy win. It's easy to just bash on a system that potentially could work in favour of average players, even though 20 minutes is just too much (I don't know why they even implemented), but if you balance out system + player, the player will always do everything that benefits himself. Even if that benefit hello kittys another players life, people don't really care about that. The new roe was implemented to help out average players and people trying to learn PVP, but does the overall player base actually undestand that? Do they even try to see the 'average player' struggle and avoid those 1v1 battles, simply because it wouldn't be fair to join in on a powerful ship and simply interrupt that battle?

When you see double-crossed swords in OW, do you even calculate the amount of BR displayed, check your own BR to kinda get an idea of which ships are battleing? Would you avoid getting into a 5th rate battle because fairness? No, y'all are bashing on a system, but some of you guys are the own hello kittying problem to the ROE, because one; you don't care, and 2; gotta get that gank, right? Gotta show other players that you're a baddass captain, sinks everyone, gotta get my name on the leaderboard and hello kitty everyone else. If y'all wanna change this game, then lose that mindset that you're the most powerful captain overseas and start giving some more interest in helping out those new players, average players, because they are the future of your own server.

 

Sure, 20 min ROE doesn't help anyone in the current game state, because people will always abuse it for their own benefit, and I get that the devs are not really trying to fix it, instead they always find excuses or look at data instead of player feedback, but that doesn't mean the devs are always the one to blame. And I'm pretty sure a lot of players will bash me for saying this and I don't really care, because in the end, y'all know I'm right. Would you put your nation before your clan? Would you put another player before yourself? That's the question.

Balance BR and give ROE a more sustainable and useful timeframe, 20 minutes is just too much. People can sail from reeaaally far ports to join your battle just to save your ass, and if there's players around sailing for minutes/hours, they will always join a ongoing battle no matter what, just to get into battle and get kills, this is killing PVP in a bigger picture, because by doing that, it becomes toxic.

[admin]

ROE Is fine
You can get reinforced
You can hold the the the enemy line and then get support and sink them all
You can get tagged and get help if you know how to survive. 

. We love it and people we trust love it too. It makes pvp accessible to everyone and of course there are some negatives and side effects (especially for solo players). But positives outweigh negatives. No plans to change ROE. It is the final Rule of Engagement.

Thanks for suggestions.

[admin]

Revenge ganking is another story though. As we dont want you to stay in battles forever.