Hethwill, the Red Duke Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 No 2 minute timer, immediate close, keep 20 minutes of reinforcing back and forth.
Angus MacDuff Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Hethwill said: No 2 minute timer, immediate close, keep 20 minutes of reinforcing back and forth. Does not solve the problem of ships being heavily damaged at 15 minutes when a fresh ship comes in. Makes it not worth initiating a battle. Just sail around looking for fight to join late.
manuva85 Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) On 3/24/2019 at 5:58 AM, admin said: sorry guys for off topic but this myth need to be debunked 1 There are 2 programmers (devs) on the project for the last 2.5 years, At its peak before release and some time after there were 3 programmers. 2 Naval Action was always an indie game done by 2 programmers, and compared to other indie games done by 2 programmers is already awesome. @admin but isnt size of development team your own decision? You did have intake of cash after Early Access, so i wouldnt use that excuse too much, bcs it isnt working. No one stopped you from investing incomes into the game. Consdiering how many ppl bought NA and compare it to other Indie games. Idk why you keep referring to yourself as small studio. Not with that experiance. Just so it isnt 100% off topic, ROE is wrong, but it is the same level of bad as repairs in combat (prelonging combat that should have ended way earlier). Edited March 25, 2019 by manuva85 2
Aerospace Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) 100% wrong ROE implementation. * You can tag higher BR ship, keep in battle until your buddy arrives. Attacker should not get reinforcements! Battle closes after 2 minutes for attacker. * Only defender side should get reinforcements if defender br is smaller. * Any reinforcements should spawn more futher away from battle as time passes. Them joining just inside battle is unrealistic, they should come from horizon to the battle. * Clear information of BRs, battle open for which side inside and outside the battle. Information about Br margin in calculations, 20 minutes also to be notified in battle. If these are implemented 20 minutes ROE can work. Btw all casuals already on PVE server Edited March 25, 2019 by Aerospace
jodgi Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said: This results in an easy (and unfair) kill It's working exactly as intended: The preliminary data is showing that people prefer to react to attacks and counter-gank with overwhelming force. An unfair kill is the best kind of kill, if you find yourself in a fair fight you're doing it wrong! Most of our players are based in KPR and Mortimer, right? Look how far they can reach when responding to "broken arrow" calls... It's pretty neat to sit in port but still be able to help a clanmate more than 12 hours away. We just have to keep feeding our ships to the coast-guard areas and all this will work out just fine. 1
Angus MacDuff Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, jodgi said: It's working exactly as intended: The preliminary data is showing that people prefer to react to attacks and counter-gank with overwhelming force. An unfair kill is the best kind of kill, if you find yourself in a fair fight you're doing it wrong! Most of our players are based in KPR and Mortimer, right? Look how far they can reach when responding to "broken arrow" calls... It's pretty neat to sit in port but still be able to help a clanmate more than 12 hours away. We just have to keep feeding our ships to the coast-guard areas and all this will work out just fine. lol
Vernon Merrill Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 On 3/24/2019 at 5:25 AM, Mr. Doran said: Gee wiz, if you count ganking as PVP activity then yeah I bet there has been a pretty decent stimulus to the PVP numbers. Do you want to know how many of my battles were EVER interrupted by people I did not want on MY team when we had two-minute timers? Absolutely zero. You want to know why? Because I could SEE who was around the instance when I started it. So your sarcastic answer is for me to pay for some DLC to "avoid" some nonsense that could otherwise be totally avoided to begin with if the system were designed logically? I like this guy more: \ Dude, TDA is dead and has been dead for the better part of 2 years.... The difference is when the game's ROE changed, and became something where bigger was always better, regarding ships and group sizes, most decided it was against their idea of fun and drifted away instead of staying on the forums and raging. There's a few that still pop in every now and then (Pada, Hugh, DeRuyter...), but the big focus on RvR as core content in 2017 really did us in.... 2
SS Minnow Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 What are the problems we are trying to solve and what monsters have we created in the process? It seems like we are losing track of the problems and objectives. If we want to examine this issue, we need to step back and define the objectives of the ROE. Good objectives generally have simple and direct solutions that make sense logically, naturally and historically. Example: Cutter shouldn't be able to attack L'Ocean. --> minimum BR required to attack a larger ship. Griefing and ganking exploits solved in 1 simple ROE. Bad objectives create new complexities that require illogical or artificial mechanics. Bad objectives may even be impossible to achieve. Example: Make all battles as "fair" as possible ---> 1.5 BR reinforcement limit on weaker side if defender, use 20 min. and 2 min. join timers. This artificial ROE is difficult to even describe. Players must do math, keep track of timers and make sure the right ships join to reinforce the defender. Why should all battles have such a rule? Would a couple of ships sailing around an enemy capital or stronghold be entitled to a "fair" as possible battle. Shouldn't the nation with the larger presence in the battle vicinity be entitled to join the battle as well. Why would you sail into an enemy stronghold area if you didn't have backup? Why not let battles escalate to 25 ships for both sides during the first 20 minutes? Given our open world speed is accelerated, wouldn't a 20 minute join timer for all and no BR limits be "fair". Wouldn't this also eliminate the Reinforcement zone problem (not needed)? This objective stems from Lobby arranged battles and seems inappropriate for open world encounters. 1
manuva85 Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said: Dude, TDA is dead and has been dead for the better part of 2 years.... The difference is when the game's ROE changed, and became something where bigger was always better, regarding ships and group sizes, most decided it was against their idea of fun and drifted away instead of staying on the forums and raging. There's a few that still pop in every now and then (Pada, Hugh, DeRuyter...), but the big focus on RvR as core content in 2017 really did us in.... Doran is 100% right though, how ever you put it. Players that liked to 1vs 1 in OW were hello kittyed when Early access went in bcs if terribble roe that allowed ppl streaming in. I was told multiple times that there is no place for fair fights in OW. + Trash eco and focus on crafting. We devolved from ppl looking for fights into this situation where pve server is closing on pop to pvp one. Edited March 25, 2019 by manuva85 1
Vernon Merrill Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, manuva85 said: Doran is 100% right though, how ever you put it. Players that liked to 1vs 1 in OW were hello kittyed when Early access went in bcs if terribble roe that allowed ppl streaming in. I was told multiple times that there is no place for fair fights in OW. + Trash eco and focus on crafting. We devolved from ppl looking for fights into this situation where pve server is closing on pop to pvp one. Absolutely. There has ALWAYS been, at least since I joined, the push/pull between the OW people and the Sea Trials people... Ultimately, I think its just a bridge too far to try and satisfy both.... at least with this pop.... Maybe when/if we get a similar population back from 2016, they can re-implement duel rooms... I know many people that would bring back. But it adds very little to what they've been developing the past few years. I'm sure Prater, AKD, Chustler etc, would come play duels, but I'm not sure they'd ever get back into the OW.... and that's fine.
Angus MacDuff Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said: Absolutely. There has ALWAYS been, at least since I joined, the push/pull between the OW people and the Sea Trials people... Ultimately, I think its just a bridge too far to try and satisfy both.... at least with this pop.... Maybe when/if we get a similar population back from 2016, they can re-implement duel rooms... I know many people that would bring back. But it adds very little to what they've been developing the past few years. I'm sure Prater, AKD, Chustler etc, would come play duels, but I'm not sure they'd ever get back into the OW.... and that's fine. Just move the Solo PVP zone out from the Patrol circle and you have duel rooms.
manuva85 Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, Angus MacDuff said: Just move the Solo PVP zone out from the Patrol circle and you have duel rooms. just add lobbies, i realy dont know how they were hurting state of the game by just being there to be used. I did enjoy weekly traffalgar (before rvr and durra loses killed it)
admin Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 34 minutes ago, jodgi said: It's working exactly as intended: The preliminary data is showing that people prefer to react to attacks and counter-gank with overwhelming force. An unfair kill is the best kind of kill, if you find yourself in a fair fight you're doing it wrong! Most of our players are based in KPR and Mortimer, right? Look how far they can reach when responding to "broken arrow" calls... It's pretty neat to sit in port but still be able to help a clanmate more than 12 hours away. We just have to keep feeding our ships to the coast-guard areas and all this will work out just fine. Thats a beautiful map But it's also a game. This circles are irrelevant from the game perspective. To test the hypothesis you just need to take your idea to the extreme. Imagine the game with realistic speeds both on OW and in Instances. (Where it would take 2-3 hours to reach La Navasse from Port royal. It would be amazing for a solo player or any player DURING battles, but won't be great between those battles.
Vernon Merrill Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said: Just move the Solo PVP zone out from the Patrol circle and you have duel rooms. I dont disagree.... But I'm not the devs. This is why I avoid the Patrol Zones at all costs... A) My ships aren't built for it b) I'm not a fan of joining battles (or mine being joined) when ships are half-destroyed. Its just lazy to me, but I understand not everyone has the same time availability, so its fine... 3
Angus MacDuff Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, admin said: Thats a beautiful map But it's also a game. This circles are irrelevant from the game perspective. To test the hypothesis you just need to take your idea to the extreme. Imagine the game with realistic speeds both on OW and in Instances. (Where it would take 2-3 hours to reach La Navasse from Port royal. It would be amazing for a solo player or any player DURING battles, but won't be great between those battles. That's exactly why the join timer should not be so long. We absolutely need compressed time in OW, therefore, the join timer should be shorter so that players cannot unrealistically join a battle from "Hours" or "Days" away. 3
Guest Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, admin said: Thats a beautiful map But it's also a game. This circles are irrelevant from the game perspective. To test the hypothesis you just need to take your idea to the extreme. Imagine the game with realistic speeds both on OW and in Instances. (Where it would take 2-3 hours to reach La Navasse from Port royal. It would be amazing for a solo player or any player DURING battles, but won't be great between those battles. as proposed a thousand times earlier, maybe you should add something that wouldnt make the sailing from A to B like a 20 min queue time?
Aerospace Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, admin said: Thats a beautiful map But it's also a game. This circles are irrelevant from the game perspective. To test the hypothesis you just need to take your idea to the extreme. Imagine the game with realistic speeds both on OW and in Instances. (Where it would take 2-3 hours to reach La Navasse from Port royal. It would be amazing for a solo player or any player DURING battles, but won't be great between those battles. Are you kidding us, THAT IS your new ROE! Those circles are your 20 min. join ROE range. It takes 7-10 hours to sail that distance with battle instance speed.
Tom Farseer Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 53 minutes ago, jodgi said: The preliminary data is showing that people prefer to react to attacks and counter-gank with overwhelming force. Sad but possibly true... short of arranged engagements it is near impossible to get a hard, even and closely fought fight lately.... 1
admin Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Aerospace said: Are you kidding us, THAT IS your new ROE! Those circles are your 20 min. join ROE range. It takes 7-10 hours to sail that distance with battle instance speed. That IS the roe yes. 20 mins is a lot if you have kids, or a job. 3
Aerospace Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 So 20 minutes is really arcadish and unrealistic unless reinforcement spawns furher away with time passing. That makes join timer 5-10 min. cause otherwise reinforcement needs to spawn very far away, can not reach battle in 45 minutes or so. Anyway rowing against stong current, just waste of time and energy.
manuva85 Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 But didnt we already did that Roe talk like 20 times? 2 minute timers are the best (you fight what you see). Why so close to finishing are you again trying long time roe? 3
jodgi Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 28 minutes ago, admin said: Thats a beautiful map Siggi map = best map 28 minutes ago, admin said: But it's also a game Sure! 28 minutes ago, admin said: This circles are irrelevant from the game perspective Not so sure! 28 minutes ago, admin said: To test the hypothesis you just need to take your idea to the extreme. Imagine the game with realistic speeds both on OW and in Instances. (Where it would take 2-3 hours to reach La Navasse from Port royal. It would be amazing for a solo player or any player DURING battles, but won't be great between those battles. No, I don't dream of a persistent 1:1 scale super tiny OW. I can full well see the seemingly insurmountable difficulties that "perfect" world presents. The gameplay devolved into cheap tricks and traps when last we had universal 20 min timers. I expect similar things to happen this time around despite the good intentions and revised 20 min RoE. We'll all know a bit further down the line. 2
Bull Hull Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 On 3/23/2019 at 9:56 AM, Teutonic said: I've said it before. Attacker should not get the reinforcement RoE perk. Why the hell shouldn't an attacker who is DEFENDING national waters from an invader be able to call for reinforcements? Not permitting someone who is trying to DEFEND their sovereign national territory is a stupidly and grossly unrealistic arbitrary mechanic. All ships that are DEFENDING sovereign national territory from a hostile invader should be able to get reinforcements - period. Without being able to effectively defend national waters from invaders REGARDLESS of who initiates the attack that effectively makes the borders for territorial waters - aka the R-zone - a laughable arbitrary joke that arbitrarily permits invaders to sail enemy waters with impunity as long as they don't attack any defenders. According to the poor logic of that arbitrary mechanic US ships in US coastal waters during the War of 1812 could signal for help IF and ONLY if British ships attacked them first. But as long as the British ships attacked them first they could signal for and get help. According to the poor logic of that arbitrary mechanic British ships in British coastal waters in the Channel or North Sea during any of its wars with France could signal for help IF and ONLY if French ships attacked them first. But as long as the French ships attacked them first they could signal for and get help. According to the poor logic of that arbitrary mechanic US ships in US coastal waters during WWI and WWII could signal for help IF and ONLY if Japanese and German ships attacked them first. But as long as the Japanese or German ships attacked them first they could signal for and get help. According to the poor logic of that arbitrary mechanic British ships in British territorial waters in the Channel or North Sea during WWI and WWII could signal for help IF and ONLY if German ships attacked them first. But as long as the German ships attacked them first they could signal for and get help. Either territorial waters actually mean something significant ALL the time regardless of who initiates an attack or territorial waters are a pathetic joke that don't mean a damn thing to anyone who wants to defend their national waters but can't because of an arbitrary mechanic. 1
Angus MacDuff Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Bull Hull said: Why the hell shouldn't an attacker who is DEFENDING national waters from an invader be able to call for reinforcements? We're talking about OW ROE. I think it is different in the R-Zones 1
Guest Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 47 minutes ago, admin said: That IS the roe yes. 20 mins is a lot if you have kids, or a job. wut? admin, an honest question, are you planning a game for 300 players peak time or 1500-2k players? its understandable with the 20 min timer because you rarely see players, but i can only imagine how many swords i will see with maybe 1000 battles around on the map
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