Balancing of Damage and Ships overall

[Tom Farseer]

9 hours ago, Wyy said:

Reduce gun damage overall by 20% No it will make light frigates able to soak damage from sols

No it won't. Not in any way.

Example:
Teak/White Oak L'Hermione, medium sized frigate, currently has 6763 Armor HP and 6057 Structure HP.
A 3rd Rate carrying 28x 32pd long guns, 28x 18pd long guns and 18x 32pd carros does at current level 4658 dmg on a perfect broadside.
So two broadsides and L'Hermiones hull is gone. Three will kill it.

With 20% damage reduction one broadside will do 3726 dmg. 3 x 3726 = 11179. That is still almost the complete HP of L'Hermione (12820 total).

-20% damage on all guns will change almost nothing in SOL vs Frigate encounters! It is aimed at making battles between ships of the same rate last longer only!

Edited March 10, 2019 by Tom Farseer
corrected numbers

[Aerospace]

18 hours ago, Bodye said:

carros would be fine with dmg reduction

indef should stay as 4th rate because its ruining pvp zones (and thats why they moved it)

connies should go back to 4th rates 

cerberus could be 6th rate

aga is fine as 4th rate

speed decrease would be really welcome as mentioned above because frigates should be much faster then bellona

 

 

 

I disagree with all carronade ships. Is there examples of all carro ships, how widely they have been used? 

Realistic approach is to limit carronade to upperdecks only, as well as limiting small ships to 18 or 24 pounder carronades, preventing absurdity of Niagra and Le Required having double broadside weight compared to remaining 6th rates. 

Using mixture of cannons and carronades complicates using them together thus more skill is needed for more firepower, instead of hitting a mouse button for simple devastating all carro damage. 

[SirValer]

@Tom Farseer I agree with you.

Damage reduction make battle more long without others differences. And another way to do it and increase the realism, for me is reduciton all cannon accuracy, we have sniper rifles now.

 

[Tom Farseer]

After some nice constructive discussion (thanks everyone for that!), I think the edited original post has a lot of merit...
@admin what do you think? Any chance to get another week or two on testbed with the changes mentioned in the original post?

[LeBoiteux]

50 minutes ago, Aerospace said:

I disagree with all carronade ships. Is there examples of all carro ships, how widely they have been used? 

Realistic approach is to limit carronade to upperdecks only, as well as limiting small ships to 18 or 24 pounder carronades, preventing absurdity of Niagra and Le Required having double broadside weight compared to remaining 6th rates. 

Using mixture of cannons and carronades complicates using them together thus more skill is needed for more firepower, instead of hitting a mouse button for simple devastating all carro damage. 

Devs chose to give all NA ships full carronades. That's non historical but a choice of gameplay.

On this basis, giving LRQ and USS Niagara 32-pdr carronades is not an absurdity while the other '6th Rates' have between 12 to 24 pdr caronades.

IRL, LRQ carried 9-pdr guns and USS Niagara 32-pdr carronades. They both deserve 32-pdr carronades in the game while the others that carried 4 to 6-pdr guns deserve 12 to 24 carronades.

What could be irrelevant is using here the British rate system, grouping all the ships from the 6-pdr Lynx to the 9-pdr LRQ in the same group.

If you use for small ships a system based on the caliber of guns as I suggested here, the problem is solved. We have :

• Group 1 (ships carrying (4 to) 6-pdr guns or 12 to 24-pdr carro) : Cutter, Lynx, Pickle, Privateer, Brig, Navy Brig, Snow, Rattlesnake, Prince.
• Group 2  (ships carrying 9-pdr guns or 32-pdr carro) : Niagara, LRQ, Hercule, HMS Cerberus, Pandora, Surprise, La Renommée.
• etc.

48 minutes ago, SirValer said:

@Tom Farseer I agree with you.

Damage reduction make battle more long without others differences. And another way to do it and increase the realism, for me is reduciton all cannon accuracy, we have sniper rifles now.

I for one like shorter battles. Matter of taste. 🙂

Edited March 10, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Tom Farseer]

Shorter than 60-90 minutes gladly. But 3 minutes is a bit too short for my taste

[Tom Farseer]

Edited OP. wrong carro damage in number example.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

No it won't. Not in any way.

Example:
Teak/White Oak L'Hermione, medium sized frigate, currently has 6763 Armor HP and 6057 Structure HP.
A 3rd Rate carrying 28x 32pd long guns, 28x 18pd long guns and 18x 32pd carros does at current level 4658 dmg on a perfect broadside.
So two broadsides and L'Hermiones hull is gone. Three will kill it.

With 20% damage reduction one broadside will do 3726 dmg. 3 x 3726 = 11179. That is still almost the complete HP of L'Hermione (12820 total).

-20% damage on all guns will change almost nothing in SOL vs Frigate encounters! It is aimed at making battles between ships of the same rate last longer only!

but you dont get the point... a frigate able to soak a ships of the line broadside never happened, if we reduce it by 20% they are able to soak damage, go out and repair and come back in, like the same problem we had before.

Besides, battles are long if you know how to play you should adjust you playstyle around the new damage model, not adjust the damage model based on your playstyle

Edited March 10, 2019 by Guest

[Tom Farseer]

14 minutes ago, Wyy said:

but you dont get the point... a frigate able to soak a ships of the line broadside never happened, if we reduce it by 20% they are able to soak damage, go out and repair and come back in, like the same problem we had before.

dude..
I literally just showed you numbers that clearly demonstrate your statement to be wrong!
Whether it takes three or three and a half broadsides to sink a frigate with a SOL makes no practical difference. After three good hits the structure will be so low that the frigate cannot get away. It only affects battles of evenly matched ships as they both can last longer.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Tom Farseer

[huliotkd]

4 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

No it won't. Not in any way.

Example:
Teak/White Oak L'Hermione, medium sized frigate, currently has 6763 Armor HP and 6057 Structure HP.
A 3rd Rate carrying 28x 32pd long guns, 28x 18pd long guns and 18x 32pd carros does at current level 4658 dmg on a perfect broadside.
So two broadsides and L'Hermiones hull is gone. Three will kill it.

With 20% damage reduction one broadside will do 3726 dmg. 3 x 3726 = 11179. That is still almost the complete HP of L'Hermione (12820 total).

-20% damage on all guns will change almost nothing in SOL vs Frigate encounters! It is aimed at making battles between ships of the same rate last longer only!

NO, a 5th rate must die in 1 or 1.5 broadside of a 3rd rate...damages must be massive. 3 broadside to kill a 5th is too much to recover from mistakes for Hermione.

knowing i can resist 3 broadsides, i can go side by side to you, take a broadside, closing to you still going full speed and killing you with my superior dps or boarding. NOPE

if you go side by side with a superior rate, you must die istant...a 4th rate can kill a 5th in maybe 2 - 2.5 broadsides but a 3rd is 1 - 1.5 broadside to wipe 5th rate out

[Tom Farseer]

4 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

killing you with my superior dps

dps of smaller guns is no longer superior! that was the whole idea of the last pach mate...

[huliotkd]

7 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

dps of smaller guns is no longer superior! that was the whole idea of the last pach mate...

yeah but it doesn't worked. i can still side by side with you in niagara full 32pdr or 24pdr and kill you cause your decks are too much higher than my hull. so you must be protected with your ability to kill me with 1 broadsides while i'm closing to you, or you will die.

so again, damages must be massive for all ships.

[Hawkwood]

11 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

yeah but it doesn't worked. i can still side by side with you in niagara full 32pdr or 24pdr and kill you cause your decks are too much higher than my hull. so you must be protected with your ability to kill me with 1 broadsides while i'm closing to you, or you will die.

so again, damages must be massive for all ships.

Upwind sailing and board you. You are dead

[huliotkd]

Just now, Hawkwood said:

Upwind sailing and board you. You are dead

if i let you to board me

 

[Hawkwood]

Just now, huliotkd said:

if i let you to board me

 

If you hug me you will get boarded, if you sail away you will loose your structure.

[Teutonic]

7 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

No it won't. Not in any way.

Example:
Teak/White Oak L'Hermione, medium sized frigate, currently has 6763 Armor HP and 6057 Structure HP.
A 3rd Rate carrying 28x 32pd long guns, 28x 18pd long guns and 18x 32pd carros does at current level 4658 dmg on a perfect broadside.
So two broadsides and L'Hermiones hull is gone. Three will kill it.

With 20% damage reduction one broadside will do 3726 dmg. 3 x 3726 = 11179. That is still almost the complete HP of L'Hermione (12820 total).

-20% damage on all guns will change almost nothing in SOL vs Frigate encounters! It is aimed at making battles between ships of the same rate last longer only!

yeah, I'm in agreement here.

4 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

dude..
I literally just showed you numbers that clearly demonstrate your statement to be wrong!
Whether it takes three or three and a half broadsides to sink a frigate with a SOL makes no practical difference. After three good hits the structure will be so low that the frigate cannot get away. It only affects battles of evenly matched ships as they both can last longer.

 

It's funny because even with all that broadside damage currently. a 5th rate can still disengage and repair. there IS STILL THE CHOICE. it just means you have to take more time to repair.

[Tom Farseer]

With current mast stats I'm pretty sure most 5ths will lose at least a top or topgallant while disengaging or get sternraked to oblivion
Maybe decent 5th captains can survive a fight with a SoL and get out. Top of the line PvPers might take on a signle 3rd rate with two 5ths and win. But other than that best a 5th can do is survive while getting the hell out. Sinking a 3rd with a 5th though? Only if it's captain is completely inept/AFK...

[Tom Farseer]

Soooooo.... @admin any chance to get at least some feedback?
Maybe somethig along the line of "Will/won't get tested because of __________"
Any answer? at all?

[Tom Farseer]

hellooooo..... helloooo... helloooo.... hellooo....
 

[Lovec1990]

In my view a good broadside from SOL should render a 5th rate a floating wreck. A frigate attacking a SOL should be extremly dangreous and winning said battle should be great achivement not mondane thing.

 

[Carlos_Condell]

@admin ... Are you alive? 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Carlos_Condell

[Lovec1990]

On 3/9/2019 at 4:50 PM, Tom Farseer said:

The following suggestions should in conjunction with each other streamline the current ship list a bit:

On damage:

• Reduce gun damage overall by 20%
• Increase carronade dispersion by 20 to 30%
• EDIT: Drastically increase stern chaser dispersion (at least 50%)

On ship rates:

• Reclass USS Constituion and USS United States as 4th rates (acts as buff via rate-specific books and upgrades)
• Reclass HMS Indefatigable as a 5th rate (no gameplay effect except for mission choice and historical accuracy)
• Reclass Cerberus as a 6th rate (acts as buff via rate-specific books and upgrades, also historically accurate)
• Exception on this is the HMS Agamemnon, being a 3rd rate historically but a 4th rate in game. Not sure how to go about that one. I'd keep it as a 4th as 74s are just that much stronger...

On ship speeds:

• Decrease speed of all 4th rates by 0.5 knots
• Decrease speed of all 3rd and 2nd rates by 1 knot
• Decrease speed of all 1st rates by 1.5 knots
• EDIT: Turnrates should be slightly nerfed for all rates above 5th as well.

Desired effects:

1. Find a sweet spot in ship survivability vs satisfying broadside effects. With the numbers stated above SoLs will still smoke 6ths and light 5ths. But battles between evenly classed ships should end up being a bit more interesting and longer.
    
2. Counter the Speed-SoL-Problem by adjusting speeds overall.
    
3. Sort out the ship rates to better fit the british rating system.
    

Personally I'd love to see a test-bed round with those changes (and only those changes) applied. Exact numbers can then be tweaked afterwards.

 

EDIT: Number example to clarify effect of damage nerf: (EDIT-EDIT corrected carro numbers)

I just realised that the example above uses old 32 pd carronade damage of 152. The post of @Felix Victor  (https://www.diffchecker.com/ZhVTfhlF) suggests a current value of 108.
That will result in Broadside damage of 4262 for 3rd rate. Three broadsides at -20% damage then are 10228. I would argue the point is still valid though.
 

Discuss! 😀

 

I disagree on cannons damage meybe 32pd and bigger cannons should gain some damage buff,  becouse Frigate reciving a broadside from SOL should be really devestating and frigate should run from enemy SOL not fight her.

I would actualy limit ship speeds so mods and wood choices would not produce overly fast ships that should not be this speeds are my idea so :

7th, 6th 15,5kn

5th rate 14,5kn

4th rate 13,5kn

3rd rate 12,5kn

1st and 2nd 11,5kn