Patch 30: General feedback

[OjK]

Just now, admin said:

Of course it is going to be an impossible mission if you use tactics described in your post
What you should do is focus fire and first gang up on the first rate, then on the second one, then finish the 3rd rates one by one. 

I know that, it was intentionally exaggerated.

You can't focus fire something like that with current build.
All 3 Agamemnon, currently strongest 4th rates in the game, have COMBINED damage of bit mor than 9000 ALL TOGETHER.

First rates armor STARTS from 20.000 HP! 

And there are 2 of them. And another three 3rd rates.

Please don't defend those missions, cause now they're absolutely not worth either time or effort.

[Angus MacDuff]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

Group missions are hard raids, that do not require long travels (unlike hunt or S&D missions)
 

I understand what you are trying to accomplish.  A hard mission with great rewards.  That is certainly the case here.  But what does the game receive for this?  Only the best players will be able to take 3 x 4th rates against 2 x 1st rates AND 3 x 3rd rates.  So only the best players can get these great rewards...making them better.  And disadvantaging average players (the majority of the player base) even more.  This is only content for elite players who will eat up these missions easily.  How about some achievable missions for average players that will give them the gold chests also.  We are going to be in the same 2 tier system that we were in before with a small minority who have all the stuff.  Average player retention should be the focus.

[OjK]

3 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

These group missions are like "Mini-Epics" and they are great.

These missions force the group that joins them to coordinate together to overcome the odds. I do think some of the NPC setups you have to fight are a little too strong, but you're right. If you decide to 1v1 each NPC you're doing it wrong.

In Epic Events we were fighting 50% more (6v9) of the same class ships.

Here, we're expected to fight almost double (3v5) with all ships beeing at least one rank above, and two of them even 3 rates above.

Seriously?

[OjK]

2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Only the best players will be able to take 3 x 4th rates against 2 x 1st rates AND 3 x 3rd rates. 

With proposed versions of missions, I see it hardly doable by anyone. 
You think so? I'd love to see any 3 players combined from the server and do THAT particular mission.

@Banished Privateer happy to take friends and stream the results?

Edited March 5, 2019 by OjK

[Neads O'Tune]

13 minutes ago, admin said:

Of course it is going to be an impossible mission if you use tactics described in your post
What you should do is focus fire and first gang up on the first rate, then on the second one, then finish the 3rd rates one by one. 
 

A broadside from that first 1st rate will reload shock you even if only half its broadside penetrates and take half a side of armour and at least 20% of your structure. Meaning that ship is out of the fight until it can repair because it cant afford to take a broadside from even the 3rd rates until it is at full health again.

And while you are focus firing that 1st rate, the other 1st rate and 3rd rates at single shooting the crap out of your crew and guns at angles that should not be possible

Let's not forget, it has been proven that AI "cheats" and is not subject to the same "laws" that us players are.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Neads O'Tune

[Zlatkowar]

3 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Average player retention should be the focus.

Amen to that.

[PG Monkey]

I think the final exam might be a bit too tough with the new damage model

[admin]

3 minutes ago, Neads O'Tune said:

 

Let's not forget, it has been proven that AI "cheats" and is not subject to the same "laws" that us players are.

it has not been proven and knowing that AI does not repair and cannot use rare upgrades this is just urban legend. If AI cheated the death rate of players to bots would be much higher (currently it is in the minuscule level of 800 ai deaths to for every player sinking to AI)

And ai does not cheat much. The only thing ai does better than average player is turn (use yard in best precise position at all times to maximize turn rate) this will be addressed (was already addressed on lower level bots) and unlimited chain (but ai does not use it in combat against combat ships)

[Neads O'Tune]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

it has not been proven and knowing that AI does not repair and cannot use rare upgrades this is just urban legend. If AI cheated the death rate of players to bots would be much higher (currently 800 ai to 1 player)

The only thing ai does better than average player is turn (use yard in best precise position at all times to maximize turn rate) this will be addressed (was already addressed on lower level bots)

BUT are they limited to the same number of upgrades on a ship at once like we are?

And

Are you REALLY going to tell us the AI DOESNT use charge in corronades?

Edited March 5, 2019 by Neads O'Tune

[admin]

1 minute ago, Neads O'Tune said:

Are you REALLY going to tell us the AI DOESNT use charge in corronades?

Can you please share the screens of combat ai ships that carry carronades on the broadsides?

[OjK]

1 minute ago, admin said:

currently it is in the minuscule level of 800 ai deaths to 1 player death

Probably because with AI everyone has free hand of they want and what they actually attack?
Most of people are picking easy targets, where they know they'll be 99% guaranteed win?

If I'd choose to play chess with kids from kindergarden, I'd probably loose one out of 800 games.

Not gonna happen if I'll try to fight on "equal terms" or with Kasparov (refering to discussed Group Mission)

[admin]

2 minutes ago, Borch said:

It's weird how you guys created great new content but then took it away from 80% of server population. Maybe intead of going into extremes (again) just introduce more difficulty levels when picking the mission that will also drop different loot?

 

On 2/28/2019 at 12:50 PM, admin said:

 

• Group missions added (enemy types and rewards are not yet fully balanced….)

 

 

[Neads O'Tune]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

Can you please share the screens of combat ai ships that carry carronades on the broadsides?

Nice little qualifier there  "on the broadsides"

Which means you know exactly what I am referring to.

[admin]

2 minutes ago, Neads O'Tune said:

Nice little qualifier there  "on the broadsides"

Which means you know exactly what I am referring to.

no screens no problem
we doubt stern guns cause a lot of trouble and are relevant in your example.
+ you can take up to 3 charges to every gun if you want to (using mods).
+ AI does not use knowledge books
+ AI only use 2-3 basic reload/hp or pen mods depending on rank

the only concern is smart turning. and i am sure you know how to handle it, by using chain and demasting.
 

[admin]

8 minutes ago, OjK said:

Probably because with AI everyone has free hand of they want and what they actually attack?
Most of people are picking easy targets, where they know they'll be 99% guaranteed win?

If I'd choose to play chess with kids from kindergarden, I'd probably loose one out of 800 games.

Not gonna happen if I'll try to fight on "equal terms" or with Kasparov (refering to discussed Group Mission)

group missions are hard raids (but they are doable) we monitor success rates in data and will update the rewards and or mission complexity going forward. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, admin said:

US Super frigates were built so tough so they could be considered third rates - we finally came to peace to this (US players will remember heated discussions about it). Superfrigates = third rates
Indefatigable has such high DPM and HP so it does not make ANY sense to be called a 5th rate. It's not a 5th rate. 
 

IMO the build quality should be determined by the thickness of the ship an the rate should be balanced around hp.

Does this suggestion make sense or am i completely out of my mind, there is a reason why agamemnon fought in a line while connie ran away from british sols

[Zlatkowar]

I am curious to know how extensively this new mission setup has been tested and what the results look like in terms of K/D with average players. 

Things will be interesting at release, that's for sure.

[OjK]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

group missions are hard raids (but they are doable) we monitor success rates in data and will update the rewards and or mission complexity going forward. 

Can You please provide a video of completing this mission we were talking about?
Cause even if we take a "best random roll" and we get 2 Victories and 3 Wasa, we are talking about total of 70.000 Armor and 50.000 Structure.

With Agamemnon having single salvo damage of 3.000, it would require ONLY 40 full broadsides.
Wonder how You want to survive that long. 

I bet my 5/5 L'Ocean, that it's not doable

But please, prove me wrong!

3x 4th vs 2x 1st, 3x3rd

 

 

@Zlatkowar It's pointless, cause almost noone even going to attempt those missions. So the stats will be again biased on the missions selected by players - which again, will be only missions that are "quite confident" to win without loosing ship.

Edited March 5, 2019 by OjK

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I understand what you are trying to accomplish.  A hard mission with great rewards.  That is certainly the case here.  But what does the game receive for this?  Only the best players will be able to take 3 x 4th rates against 2 x 1st rates AND 3 x 3rd rates.  So only the best players can get these great rewards...making them better.  And disadvantaging average players (the majority of the player base) even more.  This is only content for elite players who will eat up these missions easily.  How about some achievable missions for average players that will give them the gold chests also.  We are going to be in the same 2 tier system that we were in before with a small minority who have all the stuff.  Average player retention should be the focus.

Tbh i dont think its possible to do such a hard group mission, has to take so much i to consideration, build, crew difference, speed, broadside weight etc etc

[admin]

people will try to do those missions due to significant changes to ship distribution tomorrow during the wipe.
And with practice will learn to do them and later shine in pvp because of all that focus fire training (that is important in pvp fights).
 

[Neads O'Tune]

36 minutes ago, admin said:

+ you can take up to 3 charges to every gun if you want to (using mods).

 

Can you explain what you mean by this please? To me it sounds like you are saying that with mods you can load all charge types (double ball, double charge)into ANY gun (including carros) if you use mods.

But I'm sure i'm misinterpreting that.

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Neads O'Tune

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, admin said:

Can you please share the screens of combat ai ships that carry carronades on the broadsides?

You know whats funny? If you have ai with carronades in fleet the ai loads Double charge

[Tom Farseer]

11 minutes ago, admin said:

people will try to do those missions due to significant changes to ship distribution tomorrow during the wipe.
And with practice will learn to do them and later shine in pvp because of all that focus fire training (that is important in pvp fights).

I am not a top-of-the-line duellist. But from the fact that I am in a highly elitist and selective clan (SNOW) and repeatedly got asked by other high level clans (e.g. HAVOC) to join their PB fleets over other people who were already there with ship and everything else readied, tells me I must be a fair bit above average.
I also did epic events with 5 players total, could see myself doing them with 4 good men total as well.

I see absolutely no way of succeeding in the mission against 2 1sts and 3 3rds in three 4th rate ships. Not with the current damage model. Period.
I'll gladly try it once I get my hands on a decent 4th rate again (rarely sailed 4ths in general), but I am very very sceptical about the results.

[Neads O'Tune]

2 minutes ago, Wyy said:

You know whats funny? If you have ai with carronades in fleet the ai loads Double charge

I thought about mentioning that but, I figured the response I'd get would be something like: "that's different from mission AI and irrelevant to the point"

[Roadkill]

1 hour ago, Tom Farseer said:

I am not a top-of-the-line duellist. But from the fact that I am in a highly elitist and selective clan (SNOW) and repeatedly got asked by other high level clans (e.g. HAVOC) to join their PB fleets over other people who were already there with ship and everything else readied, tells me I must be a fair bit above average.
I also did epic events with 5 players total, could see myself doing them with 4 good men total as well.

I see absolutely no way of succeeding in the mission against 2 1sts and 3 3rds in three 4th rate ships. Not with the current damage model. Period.
I'll gladly try it once I get my hands on a decent 4th rate again (rarely sailed 4ths in general), but I am very very sceptical about the results.

Thanks for your honesty Tom, especially knowing you to be an excellent player even if you are too modest to say it.  For average players like myself who sometimes do ok, and probably form the bulk of the players, the change in the group missions is a shame.  Talk in our clan has been about the changes as a whole including the wipe and many of us feel a bit deflated at the moment but play the game because we enjoy each other's company.  We have spent the last few days trying to work out ways of playing the game going forward that will ensure that the casual players amongst us (players who may only have a couple of hours a day to play) can still sail together whilst possibly earning the ships that will allow us to get involved in RVR and PVP.  We all thought the group missions were a great idea (although tweaking to allow any number between 3 and 6 would be ideal) but with these changes we have lost another option for enjoyment pre-full wipe.  These missions would have been tough but potentially possible (albeit mainly for experienced players) prior to the changes to damage model but now they are impossible.  Your suggestion that players will learn to do it is already open to ridicule from some very good players but the other reason that may not work is simply down to the fact that instead of an avenue to earn ship notes it is now just another potential ship graveyard for casual players who will not want to risk their ships in there.

I am genuinely concerned we are now going to lose the players in our clan who have commitments in the real world but who have been a mainstay of this game.