Patch 30: Trading feedback

[Vizzini]

player harvested resources ( fir oak iron hemp etc ,not the rare stuff like teak Lo wo ) should never be dropped into a port by magic. If they were only available from players, then this could help the trading issues

 

right now it looks to me that by using my hours harvesting hemp i lose money. Its cheaper to wait until a port has it for sale. If it didn't appear by magic  (or if it doesnt ..oops didnt realise ) then that could provide a source of income to those willing to do it

 

the players whining about not having reals are forgetting dlc's. They are vendable every day ? for how much x 365 ?  It's a money tap and over time , extremely lucrative

 

but we are in desperate need of a gold sink. I'd propose an insurance bond , for your favourite gold ship or whatever with a very hefty price tag. to be kept for emergencies. Multiple millions

[Tom Farseer]

I personally like the new trading system. I found several relatively low risk routes with decent profit margins (~100-130k per filled Indiaman) at ranges of around 600k and others at half the profit on half the range, so overall profit per time sailed is roughly equal.
I also love the fact that there is no more empty runs back to your starting port. Chose the right route and you make profit on every leg of your journey.

[I Shot Got]

Sorry wrong in every way.

A casual player has a limited amount of time to play the game - say maybe two hours a day. To complete that trip would take five days - five days of logging in and doing nothing but watching your wake. They want to get on have some fun, bit of trade, a fight and go. They don't want to be locked into five two hour sessions of doing nothing. Also understand that run mostly had NO ports to stop at as it was long haul deep water run not a coastal how is the local tavern run. Not exactly what I would call engaging game play for the casual player.

I was testing time and profitability. It doesn't work for me. Sorry that's just how I feel about this trading update.

For those that say ohhh it's just PvE well calculate your chances of doing that run on PvP and surviving because I can tell you now you won't survive.

Once again it is a GAME not a JOB and it's meant to be FUN not a CHORE. If it follows this route you will loose the casual player and they are as much a part of the community as anyone else who plays this game.

Regards Shot (Spy).

[StuntPotato]

2 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

 

I strongly believe that AFK sailing is a mistake in game design. A game should be FUN and keep you in fornt of the screen.

 

I agree completely. Bad weather maybe? Sailors lost at sea or on an island? World of Tanks on alt-tab?

I am curious about your indiamen @Tom Farseer, why not fir/fir? And what guns do you choose for your traders?

[Sir Loorkon]

28 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

2.4 millions, in 11 hours. That's like... login/logoff 2 hour sessions ( hops from port to port ) across a week ( or two weeks of every other day playing NA) .

Not bad for a "bloody casual". Perfectly acceptable.

I do not think you get the point. I do not think this is "perfectly acceptable". This is - in my opinion - just a boring grind and waste of time. The only thing that would help are trade runs that can be initialized by a player to send his own trade ships as AI controlled transports. That would help to reduce the time waste. The risk to lose the transport would be there. The motivation to capture those player send AI transports would be there and OW trafic would increase. My guess is that only very few players will do trade runs with the mechanic we have atm. Not because they are dangerous but because they are boring. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Sir Loorkon

[LeBoiteux]

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

2.4 millions, in 11 hours. That's like... login/logoff 2 hour sessions ( hops from port to port ) across a week ( or two weeks of every other day playing NA) .

Not bad for a "bloody casual". Perfectly acceptable.

Not here to argue of course. 🙂

But I for one would not call casual someone who plays 11 hours a week or even each couple of weeks. But I guess everyone/game has his definition. 

Moreover, you are not a casual. You are a player who perfectly know each mechanism of the game, each update and hotfix and the best ways to make money. When one plays not so often, one doesn't know the game as well (even if he asks help on the chat).

Was it 11 hours of pure trading or were there some fights, exploring, waste of time in port in between as some casual would do ? I play much less than 11 hours a week (am I an ultratra casual ?) and I know I am far far far... from maximizing the ratio profit/time. 

"2.4 millions in 11 hours" sounds a bit like an advertising if you see what I mean.

Congrats however. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Sir Max Magic]

1 hour ago, I Shot Got said:

 

Ok I tested this trading and this is what I have found.

After the wipe I started with the 150.000 Reals plus sold some ships to bring my total to 800.000 Reals starting money.

I bought high value goods but sold them on a medium profit route which took two and a half hours to sail. I then bought high value items and some of the next highest items (to fill the holds) and sailed them even further and sold them also buying goods in that port. I worked under the premise of carrying the highest value cargo I could in four Indiaman with a total of 155 items allowing space for fish and the completely missing bottles of mythology. I eventually returned to Christiansted and at the end of 2475km and 11 hours sailing and had 3.2mil Reals in the bank.

Good you say, well I'll be honest, it's not what I said. I'm not sure where 11 hours being glued to a screen watching the odd fish be caught and having to hit a button every 30 mins so I could keep sailing was fun. In fact it was flat out bloody boring. I am at a loss how this is an improvement to the game. Furthermore no way in hell could this run have been made on the PvP server without the loss of all 4 Indiaman used. Yes I tested it on PvE because as stated it would have been absolutely pointless as a lone player attempting this run on PvP.

Additionally I have an issue with having this 30 min time out - if players are going to be forced to make these mind numbing long distance trading runs please do me the favour of increasing it to 2 hours or even 3 hours so I can leave the computer and go and do something meaningful with my time while waiting for this travesty of a trade route to end. I don't run macros and I refuse to place items on, or jam, my keyboard so it negates this blasted timer. 

Add to the fact that clans can swamp short run routes with small profit margins at no risk in large numbers to make massive profits clearly defeats the point of money only being made from long runs . Alt accounts also defeat this system.

Simply put you won't stop players/clans becoming insanely rich on either PvP or PvE.

Regards Shot.

PS and how many bottles did you think I picked up over that 2475km and 11 hours of sailing.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

2.4 millions, in 11 hours. That's like... login/logoff 2 hour sessions ( hops from port to port ) across a week ( or two weeks of every other day playing NA) .

Not bad for a "bloody casual". Perfectly acceptable.

The initial post was not well structured  

Most of you may have overlooked that this Guy did this on PVE - SERVER  

The author himself stated that something like this wouldnt be possible on PvP - Server because your loss rate would be unacceptable... and unsustainable

 

So for me, this example shows much more how trading is bugged atm and gets much too less reward for the invested hours  

Again, couple this with ZERO reals we all will have in few weeks and NO ships and we can imagine how long it will take for all of us to recover from the complete wipe  

 

Again, we need MORE sources of income than just trading goods from A to B !

@admin, pls bring back the old mission rewards for Kill - Missions !! Thats the ones we will ALL have to level up again after release  

...and we need a steady income through those missions to recover from losses or repairs...

 

 

 

[I Shot Got]

It was one single round trip of 2475km starting in Christiansted and ending in Christiansted. The only stops made were to sell goods, buy goods. I vistited a total of 5 ports not including Christiansted - two of those ports had items stored that I need to pick up. One leg of almost 800k does not have any ports. I did no fighting and no exploring ( I know my way around the map already).

The reason I did it is to do what we are supposed to be doing - testing the economics but economics doesn't just include short hauls it includes longs hauls. It also includes the players who have plenty of time and those that don't.

Shot (Spy)

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

9 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

I do not think you get the point. I do not think this is "perfectly acceptable". This is - in my opinion - just a boring grind and waste of time. The only thing that would help are trade runs that can be initialized by a player to send his own trade ships as AI controlled transports. That would help to reduce the time waste. The risk to lose the transport would be there. The motivation to capture those player send AI transports would be there and OW trafic would increase. My guess is that only very few players will do trade runs with the mechanic we have atm. Not because they are dangerous but because they are boring. 

My comment was only aimed at quantity of money produced by trade in 11 hours of gameplay ( can be 1 session, can be 6 sessions... matters not). Nothing else.

Thank you for trying to read my mind. Don't do it again.

[Sir Max Magic]

26 minutes ago, I Shot Got said:

Sorry wrong in every way.

A casual player has a limited amount of time to play the game - say maybe two hours a day. To complete that trip would take five days - five days of logging in and doing nothing but watching your wake. They want to get on have some fun, bit of trade, a fight and go. They don't want to be locked into five two hour sessions of doing nothing. Also understand that run mostly had NO ports to stop at as it was long haul deep water run not a coastal how is the local tavern run. Not exactly what I would call engaging game play for the casual player.

I was testing time and profitability. It doesn't work for me. Sorry that's just how I feel about this trading update.

For those that say ohhh it's just PvE well calculate your chances of doing that run on PvP and surviving because I can tell you now you won't survive.

Once again it is a GAME not a JOB and it's meant to be FUN not a CHORE. If it follows this route you will loose the casual player and they are as much a part of the community as anyone else who plays this game.

Regards Shot (Spy).

...you should had add this to your initial post, mate  

Because many people will read just "made 3.2 Millions whilst" trading and missed that it was on PvE and completly missed your point that Trading gives too LESS profit  

...they just understood it the other way around...  

Edited March 8, 2019 by Sir Max Magic

[Sir Loorkon]

4 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

My comment was only aimed at quantity of money produced by trade in 11 hours of gameplay ( can be 1 session, can be 6 sessions... matters not). Nothing else.

Thank you for trying to read my mind. Don't do it again.

Sorry, I did not intend to read you mind so I can not do it again.

Without context to your post:

I suggest to give players the opportunity to send AI controlled trading ships. This would increase the OW traffic and decrease the time sink.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

16 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Not here to argue of course. 🙂

But I for one would not call casual someone who plays 11 hours a week or even each couple of weeks. But I guess everyone/game has his definition. 

Moreover, you are not a casual. You are a player who perfectly know each mechanism of the game, each update and hotfix and the best ways to make money. When one plays not so often, one doesn't know the game as well (even if he asks help on the chat).

Was it 11 hours of pure trading or were there some fights, exploring, waste of time in port in between as some casual would do ? I play much less than 11 hours a week (am I an ultratra casual ?) and I know I am far far far... from maximize the ratio profit/time. 

"2.4 millions in 11 hours" sounds a bit like an advertising if you see what I mean.

Congrats however. 

Good point.

There's indeed a gap between Focused gameplay and Casual gameplay and it has nothing to do with time spent.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

I do not think you get the point. I do not think this is "perfectly acceptable". This is - in my opinion - just a boring grind and waste of time. The only thing that would help are trade runs that can be initialized by a player to send his own trade ships as AI controlled transports. That would help to reduce the time waste. The risk to lose the transport would be there. The motivation to capture those player send AI transports would be there and OW trafic would increase. My guess is that only very few players will do trade runs with the mechanic we have atm. Not because they are dangerous but because they are boring. 

perfect solution and unfortunately been proposed so many times its redicilous. Imo you should be able to hire npc to do the delivery for you aswell as drawing the route they should be sailing, small details makes big difference in the big picture.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Guest

[Aerospace]

@Hethwill but in pvp server, you need to be very lucky to finish your 11 hours trip, without coming across an enemy player.

There should be common trade routes, it should not be random. There should be caribbean news like, "Bluefields needs urgent livestock and other food products, area has suffered from famine/drought". And not just one route but 4-5 of them, creating trade routes for 1-2 weeks real time, all around the map.

These should be very profitable trade runs, like 3x more profit, but also much risky. All the players will have ideas about this routes, so hunters will be roaming around. Will need group efforts to complete trade runs. This routes should be spawned according to server population. So keeping it risky. Not too many not too few of them.

This for example is a content. Creating pvp and trade runs. We can write down at least 100 ideas which can turn into great content for NA. But sadly we do not have much content like this idea.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Aerospace

[Sir Max Magic]

21 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

I do not think you get the point. I do not think this is "perfectly acceptable". This is - in my opinion - just a boring grind and waste of time. The only thing that would help are trade runs that can be initialized by a player to send his own trade ships as AI controlled transports. That would help to reduce the time waste. The risk to lose the transport would be there. The motivation to capture those player send AI transports would be there and OW trafic would increase. My guess is that only very few players will do trade runs with the mechanic we have atm. Not because they are dangerous but because they are boring. 

Agree...but then the economy will crash  

No to very few players do trade runs --> no reals in the economy --> noone will sell stuff via contracts --> noone will have reals to repair, replenish crew, craft, buy ships...etc.

 

Again, Players have to have income just through PLAYING the game !!!

Like it was with the old small and big mission system, which are now the Kill - Missions...atleast those have to generate Reals as rewards

Edited March 8, 2019 by Sir Max Magic

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Oh, I totally get you.

But the design is "focused", as i interpret it, as simply means to an end. A money making mechanic.

Money that will be turned into clans/solo players assets - ships, ports, books, modules, resources.

I won't deny a living world with dynamic trade would be ideal but entire design is aimed at - road to combat and conquest.

And this cannot be ignored, just avoided.

Some players simply like to pursue a sandbox-trader career. Very few, but there are.

[Angus MacDuff]

59 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

You forgot to add what happens AFTER release when noone of us has 800.000 Reals to his exposal  

Now add even more, when new players come fresh to the game, have no clue what to do and will quickly struggle to earn enough reals to keep their ships and crew seaworthy !

I started with my 50k and got it to 200k in an hour.  Soon I will be able to fill 2 Indiamen and run it up faster.  The choice is shorter distances for less profit but less time invested or do the long hauls that eat up all of your real time.  As long as the resources exist for the shorter runs then that's my choice.  What i'm not understanding is Devs dislike of people being able to make a ton of money quickly.  I need to make money to PVP.  I don't particularly enjoy trading.  Its just something I need to do to support my PVP habit.  Don't we want more PVP?

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

How gathering 3 million Real in a day is required ?  You choose to do so, if you don't enjoy it don't do it, i don't understand the problem. You got a good profit, if that was not your goal, why did you do it ?  

If you discover today that naval action offer nothing to do appart sightseeing during navigation (+stress of pvp encounter on war server ofc) it's been discussed since years, people asked for minigames/managements/stuff to do while sailing, and we got a pray button, auto fishing, dice game, two of those having been removed. 

 If the problem is that you expect to make a same profit in less time / less distance and this possibility have been removed, what can i tell, do shorter run, get less profit, but profit still..

[Sir Loorkon]

On 3/8/2019 at 12:22 PM, Hethwill said:

 

Oh, I totally get you.

But the design is "focused", as i interpret it, as simply means to an end. A money making mechanic.

Money that will be turned into clans/solo players assets - ships, ports, books, modules, resources.

I won't deny a living world with dynamic trade would be ideal but entire design is aimed at - road to combat and conquest.

And this cannot be ignored, just avoided.

Some players simply like to pursue a sandbox-trader career. Very few, but there are.

 

Would player sent AI traders alter that? In my opinion trade ships sailed by players would have a bigger chance to finish a trade run than player sent AI transports. So a player could decide to take more risk with less time to invest ore less risk with a lot time to invest.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Sir Loorkon

[Sir Max Magic]

5 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I started with my 50k and got it to 200k in an hour.  Soon I will be able to fill 2 Indiamen and run it up faster.  The choice is shorter distances for less profit but less time invested or do the long hauls that eat up all of your real time.  As long as the resources exist for the shorter runs then that's my choice.  What i'm not understanding is Devs dislike of people being able to make a ton of money quickly.  I need to make money to PVP.  I don't particularly enjoy trading.  Its just something I need to do to support my PVP habit.  Don't we want more PVP?

Agree

Me too dont understand this because economy needs a steady influx of cash/reals...because all other ersources, Dubs, Combat Medals, are related to some point to reals and have to get exchanged via contracts into reals to sustain your living in NA 

 

[mikawa]

This game has one big problem -- it is designed with fear in mind that one could gather too much goods / money / ships. And that is the main fault from the very beginning of this development. Instead of asking what to do to *restrict* players and *force* players into boring actions, the game should ask what to do to bring *fun* to the players and to *make* gameplay rich on features.

Give the players more options let them freely choose what to do next and we get 1000 players back, I'll promise. But not by aiming at players who can spend 30+ hours per week. And is this really a game worth playing if I have to spend 30+ hours and have no fun or even be bored by stupid time consuming jobs? In my opinion, no.

[Sir Max Magic]

2 minutes ago, mikawa said:

This game has one big problem -- it is designed with fear in mind that one could gather too much goods / money / ships. And that is the main fault from the very beginning of this development. Instead of asking what to do to *restrict* players and *force* players into boring actions, the game should ask what to do to bring *fun* to the players and to *make* gameplay rich on features.

This +1

[Wilhelm von Seydlitz]

40 minutes ago, StuntPotato said:

I agree completely. Bad weather maybe? Sailors lost at sea or on an island? World of Tanks on alt-tab?

Afk Tradesailing and playing Civilisation 6 with Alt-Tab it works 🙂
But that can not be the sense in a game.

37 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

 The only thing that would help are trade runs that can be initialized by a player to send his own trade ships as AI controlled transports. That would help to reduce the time waste. The risk to lose the transport would be there. The motivation to capture those player send AI transports would be there and OW trafic would increase.

+1

[Israel Hands]

A simple solution could be to make all ships DLC ships, that way ppl that don't want to throw more money at GameLabs can craft the ships they want and do all the afk sailing they want and the ppl that just logs in for a couple of hours can still play the game without the afk sailing.

 

The current trading system just keeps the inflation up, in a while 3m won't matter because a ship with the right woods, the right modules and the books to complete the set will net you far more than this. 

[Vizzini]

Some of you seem to think that what you find boring...everybody else must be mad if they don't feel the same way

 

If there was no trading on the pvp server. The pve server would get larger and the pvp server would get smaller, I'd say that would be a fairly accurate guess as to what would happen

 

Forcing people to pvp or pve is madness.They have to want to do it. If trading gets them the currency they want to purchase the ship they want and play how they want... it's all good

Some of the players only want to turn up and pvp , then let them dlc it up... it's good for them, then it will be good for the game. Some want to finance their own ships through trade and are willing to accept the risks. the rest are on the pve server. Don't force more to move there