Patch 30: Trading feedback

[Angus MacDuff]

2 minutes ago, rediii said:

Sorry to hurt you but I have doubts many people are sailing lynxes and fir fir princes around on the map to fight this money making mechanic that has NO other alternative.

Or where can you get 50k dubs or something like that with a timeinvestment of a few hours with no risk?

 

Smart people have a free outpost slot and just dock up in the next free for all/neutral/nationport to put it into the captainschest

Nuh-uh.  only 10k in the chest.  But of course you are correct...they can dump it in the warehouse and do the "Dub transfer ju-jitsue" of TP'ing back and forth to move it.

[victor]

7 minutes ago, rediii said:

Sorry to hurt you but I have doubts many people are sailing lynxes and fir fir princes around on the map to fight this money making mechanic that has NO other alternative.

Or where can you get 50k dubs or something like that with a timeinvestment of a few hours with no risk?

 

Smart people have a free outpost slot and just dock up in the next free for all/neutral/nationport to put it into the captainschest

You seem to consider only risk vs reward, but also time vs reward is a criteria used in games.

You state that ONLY risk vs reward shall be there because this is what you like: but designing a game in a balanced way implies that some activity are based on risk vs reward and some others on time vs reward, because some player like to risk and some others do not.

Edited March 6, 2019 by victor

[victor]

6 minutes ago, rediii said:

If you consider time vs reward you also have to keep in mind though that there would be no other way that matches the risk + time these missions have.

from 1-10

risk: 2

time: 10

reward: 10

 

Missions or other stuff:

risk: 6

time: 10

reward: 5

 

Hope you understand what I mean

I did. It's you that did not.

Your decided the numbers above on the basis of your taste (that is biased towards the risk vs reward).

Time for (profitable) delivery missions is far higher than time for other stuffs.

But that's ok, mate. I know how it works with people that are always right.

Edited March 6, 2019 by victor

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Borch said:

I can already see you sailing with 4 T lynxes to grind 70k dubloons. Are you going to do that? No? Why? Is it taking a lot of time and it's boring like crazy? It is indeed and not everyone is going to do that.

I do not think that you fully realize the problem. The time investment is minimal as it comes down to only being a single run in a trader lynx and the time required to trade the ship as it fills up with items. For example you are in a large clan and one of your main bases has a delivery mission worth 3k doubloons to a port about 1.5 hours sail on a T. Lynx, all you have to do is one person with the T.Lynx takes the mission then trades the ship with the mission item to another clan member who also takes the mission adding it to the ships hold, he then trades it to another clan member and so it goes on till the ship is full. Remember that this does not have to be done immediately, it can be done over the course of the day. Once the ship is full 1 person spends the time afk sailing to the delivery port to deliver all the items. The time investment of all the clan members is minimal but the rewards for 1 person doing the run are maximum, and if you have more than 24 people in the clan all you have to do is add a fleet ship to carry the goods and trade that. So theoretically your maximum slots using a T.Lynx is 96 using 3 fleet ships which could give a net return of around 2.8 million doubloons for a 1.5 hour run. 

There does not need to be any alts involved just friends and clan members and I can guarantee that for those sort of returns people will do it.

Regarding shipping the doubloons back, as someone has already pointed out all you have to do is get them to the nearest place you can open an outpost and do multiple teleports which will cost you 2% of your haul.

2 hours ago, admin said:

The question is simple. Should this item be capturable or should belong only to the quest taker. 
if it is capturable then it can be given to friends - which means one friend can spend his time to deliver it for you, then from the games perspective it does not matter who delivers as long as he sails the required route

(ps. reward and post weight is not final)

Keeping the item capturable is good, even though I doubt many people who capture it will deliver it unless it is to a port close by that is friendly, as they are likely to be in a warship and thus cannot enter an enemy port. But surely there is some way you can prevent trading of the item or make it so that duplicate of an item only count as one on hand in. The items cannot be directly traded so you obviously did not intend them to be tradeable, and thus the trading in the ships hold is an exploit.

I also think you need to be careful regarding the rewards adjustment. There was already a reduction of reward amounts from what was on the test server (doubloons are not as much and I have not found any with mission chests) and at some stage it will not be worth the effort to do these missions as currently without using the exploit you can make good returns but you have to put the time in so already many are put off doing them.

Regarding weights, maybe the weight of the item could be equivalent to the doubloon weight of the reward. If the weights become too restrictive it again reduces the incentive to do the missions.

These missions are only really worth doing in a T. Lynx as the chances of getting caught are minimal. On my travels I have seen many enemy players and most do not even try and intercept me as they already realize they have no chance of catching me. I did get tagged into battle once by another T. Lynx, but the tag was not good and he could only match my speed but not catch me and with no bow chasers could do nothing to slow me down. To catch me he would need a perfect tag and to take out my sails almost immediately.

[Angus MacDuff]

@Archaos suggested the easy solution to the exploit.  You cannot have a duplicate in your hold.

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Conversely, if you’re successful at it and you become well known as a successful, fast delivery sailor then your rewards should go up for taking those missions.

^^This is a great way to buff your rewards without resorting to exploits.

[Howell Davis]

So my initial run has been focussed on my favourite past time - afk trading. I haven't delved into the delivery missions yet, tho I do have a fleet of tlynx' for the purpose.

Trading:

The changes to the trading routes isn't half bad but it still favors the already established players heavily. I have already made a bit more than 100k on half a route, and I've only been running for 10-15 minutes. The problem will arise when I can afford running 3x4 indiamans, I'll start buying up all the tradegoods i.e. leave little to no room for new players or players just starting out in trading. At some point the established players, especially those of us with alts, will simply vacuum the ports for decent tradegoods and new players will be left with no venue for trading, this ofc especially applies to the low value, high return goods that doesn't have to be traversed very far in order to net decent profits. Time spent afk sailing is time spent not trading as we all know. 

 

The best solution I can think of is to make trading goods craftable and make it playerdependent.

[Angus MacDuff]

2 minutes ago, Howell Davis said:

The changes to the trading routes isn't half bad but it still favors the already established players heavily. I have already made a bit more than 100k on half a route, and I've only been running for 10-15 minutes. The problem will arise when I can afford running 3x4 indiamans, I'll start buying up all the tradegoods i.e. leave little to no room for new players or players just starting out in trading. At some point the established players, especially those of us with alts, will simply vacuum the ports for decent tradegoods and new players will be left with no venue for trading, this ofc especially applies to the low value, high return goods that doesn't have to be traversed very far in order to net decent profits. Time spent afk sailing is time spent not trading as we all know.

This is exactly what will happen and the solution is very simple.  Take away the limit on trade goods.  Plenty of trade goods for everyone.  What we want to see is a lot of traders out there fully laden with goods.  The hunters will be thrilled and because there is a steady supply of goods, the traders will accept their loss rate and keep trading.  I especially adore the overly greedy trader with 4 Indiamen and no guns.  He begs...I laugh...

[Howell Davis]

Just now, Angus MacDuff said:

This is exactly what will happen and the solution is very simple.  Take away the limit on trade goods.  Plenty of trade goods for everyone.  What we want to see is a lot of traders out there fully laden with goods.  The hunters will be thrilled and because there is a steady supply of goods, the traders will accept their loss rate and keep trading.  I especially adore the overly greedy trader with 4 Indiamen and no guns.  He begs...I laugh...

Actually that is another possible solution, I prefer the player crafted tradegoods tho to limit the amount of profits any single account can generate in a day.. One issue plaguing NA from day one is the inflationary nature of item prices.. It's not that it's an issue per se, but for new players just starting out it's just demotivating to be priced out of everything simply due to not being able to compete. And even if they do get into trading, the inflation will mean there's a train they're trying to catch that will always be running in front of them.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Howell Davis said:

Actually that is another possible solution, I prefer the player crafted tradegoods tho to limit the amount of profits any single account can generate in a day.. One issue plaguing NA from day one is the inflationary nature of item prices.. It's not that it's an issue per se, but for new players just starting out it's just demotivating to be priced out of everything simply due to not being able to compete. And even if they do get into trading, the inflation will mean there's a train they're trying to catch that will always be running in front of them.

Inflation can become an issue, it's true.  But there are really only a handful of the exceptional traders that make the big profits.  Most of us trade when we have to (I think) and a lot are very poor at it and can be hunted.  Taking away the limit entirely may be too far to the left, but I feel we are far too limited on resources at the moment.  I do urge the (socialist) notion that plenty for all means more players in OW.

[Angus MacDuff]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

And what do you do about inflation?

Its the big flaw in my argument, isn't it?  I dunno...some form of control.  Lets be honest, in our old economy there were billionaires.  Was inflation an issue then? 

[Howell Davis]

Just now, Angus MacDuff said:

Inflation can become an issue, it's true.  But there are really only a handful of the exceptional traders that make the big profits.  Most of us trade when we have to (I think) and a lot are very poor at it and can be hunted.  Taking away the limit entirely may be too far to the left, but I feel we are far too limited on resources at the moment.  I do urge the (socialist) notion that plenty for all means more players in OW.

All RvR clans worth their salt has dedicated traders, running a fleet is expensive and I know a couple of players running 8 acc simultaneously to support their clans. This ofc isn't an issue but (8x4)x39k = 1,2m for a single run. With the current econ a run takes 30 mins. So if I took a day out trading with infinite ressources I'd prob be able to trade for 4-5 hours at least making 12-15m with little to no risk since I won't be doing it every day (to avoid taxes showing when and where I trade).

[Angus MacDuff]

5 minutes ago, Howell Davis said:

All RvR clans worth their salt has dedicated traders, running a fleet is expensive and I know a couple of players running 8 acc simultaneously to support their clans. This ofc isn't an issue but (8x4)x39k = 1,2m for a single run. With the current econ a run takes 30 mins. So if I took a day out trading with infinite ressources I'd prob be able to trade for 4-5 hours at least making 12-15m with little to no risk since I won't be doing it every day (to avoid taxes showing when and where I trade).

And i'm speaking as a solo player who trades when I need to.  Where's the balance.  Does your enormous profit hurt the game?  If not, then you're welcome to it.  I just want to make money when I need it and if the ports are vacuumed clean by the big traders (as you correctly pointed out they will be) that's a problem for those like me.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Angus MacDuff

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

You don’t remember the compass wood and tobacco contract farming days do you? Where port clickers (I was one of them) were cornering the market, making hundreds of millions and the costs of even average ships were in the tens of millions?

A new player in that system was hopelessly behind forever (and probably quit the game forever).

This is exactly why the econ in an MMO has to be rock solid before you even start to lay the foundation of any other game system. And it’s why 100% player driven/crafted economies are the best as long as you have enough content to make the econ, gathering and trading interesting. Which is why Naval Action’s econ suffers so bad: we have developers who haven’t cared to get it right until just before release and keep reinventing the wheel, and we’ve not enough content to appeal to all of the crafting and econ folks who’ve long since left.

Yeah, i'm too new for that.  I'm not saying that I have the solution here but I hope to clarify the problem for all types of players.  Then you experts can work it out.  One of the biggest issues I find in this game (after a bit more than a year) is the inability for a player like me (average skill, mostly solo) to acquire the best stuff.  I'm not the only one to notice that there are no trade resources available when I want to trade.  It used to be a lot easier, so i'm not sure we've improved, but now is the time to find out with this new wipe.  I will of course test and critique, but I continue to feel that more for everyone is better for the game overall.  I see your point that there has to be limits.....we just need to find the happy medium

[Suppenkelle]

2 hours ago, rediii said:

If you consider time vs reward you also have to keep in mind though that there would be no other way that matches the risk + time these missions have.

from 1-10

risk: 2

time: 10

reward: 10

 

Missions or other stuff:

risk: 6

time: 10

reward: 5

 

Hope you understand what I mean

If what @admin states is correct, namely that for every 800 sunken AI vessels there is 1 player at the bottom of the sea I seriously doubt that the risk for PvE is 6. Special heroes like @Palatinose exempted.

I guess the risk in delivery missions is not much less than in taking PvE missions. And you CAN catch and sink a T-Lynx in OW. Even I managed several times.

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Borch said:

So forbid mission item trading in any way. Inceasing the weight is not the way to do it.

From what I read into Admin's reply this is not so straightforward as it would mean that items could not be captured either, which would make it not worthwhile trying to intercept traders.

I agree increasing the weight too much is a negative step, but some way has to be found to negate item trading while still leaving the items able to be captured.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Suppenkelle said:

I guess the risk in delivery missions is not much less than in taking PvE missions. And you CAN catch and sink a T-Lynx in OW. Even I managed several times.

Although it is possible to catch T.Lynxes, you need a ship specially equipped to do so and if you have such a ship you need to lucky that one comes along as such a ship will not be very good at anything else but catching T.Lynxes.

I crafted a gold fast fir/fir T.Lynx last night and equipped it with all speed mods so it was at speed cap even with cannons and repairs and I went out to see if I could find anyone in a T. Lynx. I found none but I did a couple of battles against AI and found it was easier to take down an LGV with it than a T. Brig. The T. Brig was reload shocking me almost every time with his stern guns while with the LGV I was okay stern camping him as he has no stern guns.

[Suppenkelle]

12 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Although it is possible to catch T.Lynxes, you need a ship specially equipped to do so and if you have such a ship you need to lucky that one comes along as such a ship will not be very good at anything else but catching T.Lynxes.

I crafted a gold fast fir/fir T.Lynx last night and equipped it with all speed mods so it was at speed cap even with cannons and repairs and I went out to see if I could find anyone in a T. Lynx. I found none but I did a couple of battles against AI and found it was easier to take down an LGV with it than a T. Brig. The T. Brig was reload shocking me almost every time with his stern guns while with the LGV I was okay stern camping him as he has no stern guns.

You’re right in that. When we had the basic cutter challenge to take down LGV with BC, I took a T-Lynx. Worked beautifully, took a bit longer than in BC, though.Thing is, as soon as there is decent money to earn with T-Lynxes there will be sufficient numbers in OW. Comes prey, comes hunter. 

I wasn’t able to catch you in your T-Lynx the other day, though. Bad tag.

[Suppenkelle]

4 minutes ago, rediii said:

for pve missions you have to sail in the OW and get dragged into pvp in your valueable ship. Thats why it is more risky than sailing around in a tlynx filled with goods you got from accepting a mission

Never was I ever dragged into PvP battle while on my way to PvE. Do you really think that is risky? 

[van Veen]

4 hours ago, admin said:

maybe those passengers should come with baggage indeed

Good point! And some very important passangers might have a big entourage as well requiring a larger ship than a traders lynx? 

[Howell Davis]

1 hour ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Yeah, i'm too new for that.  I'm not saying that I have the solution here but I hope to clarify the problem for all types of players.  Then you experts can work it out.  One of the biggest issues I find in this game (after a bit more than a year) is the inability for a player like me (average skill, mostly solo) to acquire the best stuff.  I'm not the only one to notice that there are no trade resources available when I want to trade.  It used to be a lot easier, so i'm not sure we've improved, but now is the time to find out with this new wipe.  I will of course test and critique, but I continue to feel that more for everyone is better for the game overall.  I see your point that there has to be limits.....we just need to find the happy medium

If trading goods were player crafted everyone would have access to atleast a minimal amount.. And players unwilling to trade? - they could basically harvest basic ressources for tradegoods and sell them to more dedicated traders i.e. create a loop where one players minimal effort saves another player labour hours for crafting higher reward items for sale in consumer ports. Basically what we need is a loop where larger conglomerates can function without killing off the smaller casual playerbase. Atm we don't have that, I've already vacuumed much of the gulf region, the virgin islands, puerto rico and the lesser antilles for trading goods worth a short sail. For a dedicated trader it's too ez to make reals, for a casual player I'll be strangling their ability to actually play the game.

[Greysteak]

On 2/28/2019 at 3:27 PM, Greysteak said:

The rewards for the econ missions into enemy territory could use a buff.  I haven't seen any mission chests or silver and gold chests as rewards for any of the econ missions.  Chests would be more of an incentive to do any of these, especially the long ones.  As it is, I see little point in doing any of them.

Yes, I was wrong.  Disregard the above post.  It's too easy in a t-lynx and the rewards don't need buffing.  I like the idea for more baggage requiring bigger ships.

[Howell Davis]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

If the re-spawn on barter goods is high enough then this will eliminate this bottleneck, however.  But if it isn't, and given that US players get no benefit from the server reset drops and by our primetime all trade goods are gone because of players like you... Well, call me skeptical that this system isn't still well and truly broken.

It remains to be seen if the barter mechanic actually works as it could to keep the econ system balanced across time zones.

Well if it can ease your mind I'll stop playing.. The recent spat of juvenile forum bans from admin along with a patch that adresse zero of the fundamental flaws in the econ system whilst making crafting even more exclusive for players like me (players with alts).. I just don't believe in the game anymore.

[Archaos]

7 hours ago, admin said:

The question is simple. Should this item be capturable or should belong only to the quest taker. 
if it is capturable then it can be given to friends - which means one friend can spend his time to deliver it for you, then from the games perspective it does not matter who delivers as long as he sails the required route

(ps. reward and post weight is not final)

The question is, do you consider the trading of delivery items in a ships hold so that multiple of the same mission can be handed in by one person, as an exploit or not?

The reason I ask is that if it is not considered an exploit, then I can freely do it so when you monitor it you can see the true scale of the problem. I have held back so far because I believe it is an exploit and will cause the market to be flooded with doubloons.

 

[Jan van Santen]

Main problem in current trading: profit is in long hauls with a large and expensive cargo only.

For that one requires a few 100K reales to start however. so:

a) the wipe was to harsh. 500K instead of 50  would fit the current trading requirements much better.

b) we need more opportunities to build up a decent starting pile with  short trade routes/cheaper cargo.

As to passenger/fedex weight...I made that suggestion a few weeks ago in testbed feedback  already

 

 

[angriff]

4 hours ago, Jan van Santen said:

Main problem in current trading: profit is in long hauls with a large and expensive cargo only.

For that one requires a few 100K reales to start however. so:

a) the wipe was to harsh. 500K instead of 50  would fit the current trading requirements much better.

b) we need more opportunities to build up a decent starting pile with  short trade routes/cheaper cargo.

As to passenger/fedex weight...I made that suggestion a few weeks ago in testbed feedback  already

 

 

Just wondering why you hate traders getting doubloons?  This is great way for traders not having to churn AI.  Makes it fun to visit different ports along the way.  Doubloons are all but worthless now if you don't want to sell them for Reals.   You need Victory Marks (port battles) and Combat Medals (PVP combat wins) to build big ships.. and if you dont want to play that route then let people get doubloons.