Patch 30: Combat and boarding feedback

[Cmdr RideZ]

250m demasting. None of the limits should be defined on Focus limits (250m unlocked). Makes it too easy.

[HachiRoku]

42 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You're incoherent. I don't even know what you're arguing for or against here, since nowhere was I talking about trying to make good players not good.  

At the center of my argument is that above average players no longer have anything to fear about sailing first rates around whereas they used to.  New and casual players can't do the same because if they meet an above average player they will lose, with a ratio much less than 1:1.  Because of the cost of line ships you're thus locking them out of PvP, reducing action for everyone, because they can't afford to keep losing. Prior to the combat model rework those players could be effective in small frigate groups and afford to lose them every night. Now they can't be effective and they'll continue to lose without any positive feedback from a successful gank or two.. and quit.

Players still can be effective in small frigate groups...They just need to fight other small frigate groups. If their only content prior to the combat change was to go out in frigates and gank a solo SOL doing missions I cannot feel for them.  What else are a group of casual players in frigates going to kill? Casuals can only gank other casuals so someone will always be a victim. 

[HachiRoku]

 

45 minutes ago, Mr. Doran said:

The lower the required pen range is the more difficult it is to perform regular fire at lower sections because it almost begins to exponentially decrease your firing window. It is a good point that third rates and higher may have trouble pitching up against a lower section at 50 meters so the tables could be adjusted accordingly for that and it would not negatively effect the balance against smaller vessels as third rates and larger should be able to demast fourth rates and lower fire considerably longer ranges than the other way around. But 250 meters just pisses away so much of the skill and fun in demasting because the firing window is so long and in some cases constant. It is much more common for all of your gun-deck to be in range of an enemy lower section at 250 meters during a battle than it is to be at 50 meters. 

I think it should be around 100m for all ships and balance it with HP. It doesnt sound like alot but if an 18 pounder takes 9 hits to dismast an Endymion it can be a challenge especially if you are fighting someone that knows when to repair the mast. Those 9 can become 14 to even 17 hits if its a perfect repair. I kind of dislike the way masts go from 1%-100% the second you pop the rep.

[Mr. Doran]

Anything but 250 meters would be an improvement; a range between 50 and 100 meters is definitely where the zone lay. We must first strike down these 1000 times folded Kiritimati first though. 

[HachiRoku]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

How can you be so obtuse?  It's exactly those players that will now be food for roving "above average," speed fit first rates. You clearly just don't play the game enough outside of your arranged fights outside of Tortue to realize that the vast majority of PvP in this game is non-consensual. And while below-average players in frigates will always be food, at least under the old damage and sailing model those above average PvP'ers were at least soloing in frigates instead of first rates, offering up some kind of parity.

I know I'd much rather meet @--Privateer-- in an Indiaman instead of a Santi, but now he has no reason not to sail solo his Santi with impunity... lol.

 

 

I really don't see an issue with him killing 2 BAIT players in 1 santi. Looks like privateer was not doing so well in that battle and just pulled the 2nd rate and won since he had a crew advantage, boarding mods and fought people that don't pvp alot. There is nothing special about that screenshot mate. Don't show me screenshots of players I have played with because I am very aware of their skills. It is not the games fault privateer won that battle. 

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

The point is "mate" that people like Privateer, and the majority of us that will have docks filled with first rates, regardless of how expensive they are, shouldn't be sailing them around bashing anyone with a lower rated ship with impunity. It's bad for the game. Period.

And now that an aveage PvP'er like me can feel almost invincible against even a decent size group of equal or even slightly better PvP'ers in frigates... well.. it's game over if those players can't also afford to keep themselves in first rates.

What is so hard about this to understand?

 

how is he supposed to loose his first rates if he has the choice of when to sail it or not? How is he supposed to loose first rates with no RVR? How is he supposed to loose first rates if he as a player can set his ports to 3-6 and deny people attacking his ports like WO do? WO are so trash because they pick fights they can win. From what I know even @rediii with HAVOC trash smashed him. Its what sandbox is. If you have a solution to that please explain. How many hours does he have compared to a casual? It is mathematically impossible for a casual to have more ships since a casual plays 2 hours a day and an elite most likely 10. Elite can build 5 times more ships. If you consider yourself average in the naval action community you really do have no idea what you are talking about. If you know how the basics of PVP you are already in the to 10% of the player base. Your average naval action player watches a video of how to "manual sail" and thinks he can sail. Im sorry to say it but your average naval action player is complete trash and I always thought you were a decent player in the 2 battles we had. I am good at observing people. 

 

[huliotkd]

15 hours ago, Wraith said:

Prior to the combat model rework those players could be effective in small frigate groups and afford to lose them every night. Now they can't be effective and they'll continue to lose without any positive feedback from a successful gank or two.. and quit.

i sank a russian player inger with an essex sternacamping him a little...if you learn how to properly sail a ship, you still can sink a superior class ship.

so again, you must learn how to play correctly.  no more care-giving battles...

 

i also sank and ocean with a carros indef , but it was a mission bot...was really dangerous but with maybe 12-15 stern rake it died by water and less crew on pumps.  finally, it's all on tactics and good manouvers

[Tiedemann]

On 3/4/2019 at 10:31 AM, Intrepido said:

1. what about the penetration values of carros (which make them too good even at medium ranges)?

2. I also read somewhere that you were going to adjust the penetration of all guns due to angling tactic a bit useless atm. Wont be patched soon?

I belive your first post is connected directly to your 2. post. So for 5. rates and bellow with carronades it is extremely hard to angle, but this is a carronade issue. I tested mediums and you might have to angle a bit more than before, but it is still possible. All they need to do is nerf the carronades because they are very strong right now.  

It is currently possible to take out a Lo/wo L'Ocean with cartagena and navy structure and solo the 1. rate group missions, 100 thickness + angeling makes it EASY. So please do not buff angling or thickness any more.

Edit: Group missions for 1. rates got it's difficulty increased so I no longer stand behind that statement xD 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Tiedemann

[Slim McSauce]

21 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Nobody, should be hitting anything at 700m and even long guns should be lucky to hit at 400m.  If we are going to have accurate damage (which I like) we should also have accurate accuracy.  You cannot equate cannon fire accuracy on land with the accuracy achievable from a platform moving in 3 dimensions to a target moving in 3 dimensions.

Good argument for removing the gyro stabilization for aiming. It would take some real skill to hit a 400m. Not psuedo gunnery, some real rewarding gunnery to match the devastating DM. Actually I think this whole argument is centered around the cannon gyro, you guys are just dancing around the solution with things such as pen, range and whatever. Everything is using real world values EXCEPT for cannon aiming, well no shit there's your problem.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Angus MacDuff]

20 hours ago, Lieste said:

Do you know what the spars are? They are the upper portions of the mast above the cross trees and fighting platform. Being much lighter than the masts (the portion between keel and the cap above the fighting platform/crosstrees) they are vulnerable to hits from fewer and weaker shot.

Nope.  We may be having translation problems here.  Masts are vertical and hold the spars.  Spars are horizontal and hold the sails.  But yes, the higher masts (top Gallant masts etc), were thinner and more prone to damage from lucky (wildly inaccurate) ball. Because the higher masts and spars were much lighter, they could indeed be damaged by chain shot and brought down. 

 

20 hours ago, Lieste said:

Dispersion increases with distance, so more shots are needed to hit a point (or linear) target as range increases... but hitting a particular point is easiest when aiming *at* that point rather than trying to guess at a particular 'hold off'.

I stand by my statement that our accuracy is far too high.  The fact that you use the word "aiming" illustrates that you don't understand the nature of naval warfare in the late 18th century.  They did not "aim" their guns.  They got very, very close (pistol shot) and pointed them.  They did not have sights.  Moving a gun to try and "aim" it was too time consuming when rate of fire is what won battles, as the British proved on numerous occasions.  Yes, if a ship wanted to fire a broadside of chain at their enemy it would have an effect, because the area of the target (the entire rigging area of a ship is huge) was an easier target, but firing ball at mast and rigging was an incredible waste of a shot.  Especially since the best crews might get 3 shots off in 5 minutes. 

[angriff]

23 hours ago, Wraith said:

You’re seriously telling me that after 25 battles you didn’t once see sides melting off a lower gun weight ship as you were sinking them? Sigh.

You’re either being ignorant or obtuse just for the sake of grinding some axe towards people who actually test and think deeply about how these game changes interact with the systems it uses.

Well I am trading player so noticing that small detail when I mostly board is not something I noticed. it was in playing with a squadmate in the main server that it was noticeable.  His method of fighting is much different than my approach with long cannons.  I certainly looked at the 25 grind as chore but had to do it for the rewards because my 1 hour and 2 hour test trips on long trades for letter delivery, passenger delivery and local product rewards were definitely not to your liking test-wise.   

I can appreciate your vitriol attitude it is all the rage these days for those being like Trump for a player that doesn't play like you maybe not so much.  Really you should spend some time looking at how players are different and the game they like then maybe you could enjoy it more.  That way you could spend less time thinking you are so wonderful and thoughtful while doing more about how to make the game grow.  I am sure you like more to a game than just a small room circle of death battle royale, but then maybe not.  

Edited March 5, 2019 by angriff

[angriff]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You certainly haven’t been paying attention over the last three years if you think I’m the kind of player who doesn’t think about play styles other than my own. Perhaps you should take some time away from your preconceived notions and actually do some reading and thinking of your own?

It sounds to me like you don’t actually test the game systems, you’re just here to play your game. That’s fine, but don’t expect to have your ignorance of the other parts of the game go unchallenged when you are clearly off base.

Don't worry I reported your bitterness

[Sir Max Magic]

5 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Good argument for removing the gyro stabilization for aiming. It would take some real skill to hit a 400m. Not psuedo gunnery, some real rewarding gunnery to match the devastating DM. Actually I think this whole argument is centered around the cannon gyro, you guys are just dancing around the solution with things such as pen, range and whatever. Everything is using real world values EXCEPT for cannon aiming, well no shit there's your problem.

Okay...Longs may be too accurate when compared to History, but...

...dont forget, if you take away accuracy even for Longs, you make long range engagments impossible and we will end up ALL in brawl fights, in which Carros are the only choice  

So this would mean, Goodbye to all tactical diversity...be careful what you wish for  

 

No, i say make distinctive differences between different Gun types if something has to get changed at all:

1. LONGS:

BUFF accuracy and long range penetration but NERF overall damage as dimishing return

2. CARROS:

NERF penetration values AND accuracy above 100 - 150 meters alot, making Carros nearly impossible to penetrate anything above 250 meters

3. MEDIUMS:

NERF accuracy and penetration (especially above 500 meters) but BUFF overall damge !!! Place mediums in the middle between LONGS and CARROS with MUCH worser accuracy and penetration than LONGS but better damage (not like it is now that Longs and Mediums are very similar)

 

Effect:

We would end up with something like Rock, Paper, Scissor in which Longs dominate long range fights but lacks the punch at close range and Carros dominate Brawls...Mediums something in between !!!

Currently the Gun Types are too similar except that Carros outshine everything in damage but lacking massive dimishing returns

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Sir Max Magic

[Rook]

Suggestions.

Damage model:

 - Minor increase for armor values of some ships, especially Light frigates, to bring balance to the Force (Hint: Not the Hercules/Requin)

 - Crank up structure survivability across the board. 

Goal: Ships can survive (not sink) for longer periods of time and continue fighting. However, the loss of armor will result in higher crew casualties and more cannons knocked out. Could double this up with a tweak to crew casualty rate (soften the rate a little to account for changes). Shift importance to the ship's crew and cannons, over the ship's "hitpoints".

 

Additional (but probably more of wish list)

Cannons/Gunnery:

- Very minor reductions to accuracy of all cannons and shot-types. If possible, additional reduction to the accuracy of chain-shot for long guns.

- Introduce press-and-hold function to the "Single-fire"/"Range" button (Spacebar). Press-and-hold would function similar to the Fire button. While the Spacebar is held your guns will start to fire a normal volley, releasing the spacebar will cease fire. Good for "fire as they bare", while retaining the normal fire button for other circumstances.

• As an aside: Introducing this could allow for additional rates of fire. Normal "Fire" could be a more rapid volley, while "Fire as they bare" could have a slightly reduced, or "normal" fire rate. 

Repairs:

 - Hull repair  = armor repair only (moderate speed) (( Fills in large gaps in planking to provide some cover/protection, but not much. ))

• If cannon replacement remains part of this repair, suggest to make it a % of the cannons lossed. Say, 50% of the lost cannons can be put back in action. To prevent excessive cannonball sponge.

 - Sail repair = In-battle: Each sail is removed individually, causing an initial reduction in speed (obviously with less reduction if the sail was already heavily damaged), before being replaced by a fresh sail. The speed of repair could be a decent rate, not faster than it is now, but each damaged sail must be replaced. 

• Decrease accuracy of chain-shot.
• Progressively more damage per hit as the sails become damaged. A healthy sail won't be as affected by the hole a 9pdr makes, but a sail with a hole is more likely to split as its integrity is compromised. Would be nice if, eventually, sails tear completely and become useless tatters that still have to be removed and replaced.

 

Boarding:

Instead of rounds, boarding combat is a constant action. 

Player who grapples is the Attacker, player who is grappled is the Defender. During combat, damage is performed at a constant rate dependent upon stats and modifiers. Boarding combat can be lengthy and is determined, chiefly, by crew morale. If not prepared, boarding combat is winnable but might be extremely costly for an attacker/rage-boarder.

Major stats: Crew size, Crew Morale, Attacker, Defender

Minor stats: Ship size, Marines, Weapons?, Training/Books

During boarding you can devote more or less crew to certain roles: More sword and pike, more muskets/sharpshooters(capped by number of muskets on ship), more gunners for cannons (capped by maximum cannon crew), more crew to rigging (capped at max. rigging crew). Crew shift time is used for this mechanic.

Roles: All roles are affected by modifiers (Morale, ship size, etc.) 

Sword and Pike = Primary combat. Crew and morale damage is determined mostly by the balance of attacker vs defenders melee infantry. If these forces are balanced, standard damage will be applied. Any imbalance will quickly start to erode the morale and fighting strength of the opposing side causing a cascade effect. If you only have enough crew for one job, this is where they should be sent, otherwise the ship will be overrun and captured.

Muskets/Sharpshooters = Secondary combat. Captain can focus their fire on opposing sharpshooters, gunners, melee, or rigging (risk hitting friendlies with melee and rigging). Musket kills are crew losses more than morale hits, but will eventually affect the final outcome of the battle if they are left unchecked. 

Gunners = Tertiary combat, player controlled broadsides. Able to "Stop reload" for different sides of the ship to limit max crew and focus them on the boarding action.

Rigging = Grappling/Minor combat. In order to START a disengage, you must outmatch your opponent's rigging crew by (enter reasonable # here)%. Think of this as upper Yardsmen tying the ships together vs crew working to free the ship.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Rook

[admin]

18 minutes ago, Rook said:

Would be nice if, eventually, sails tear completely and become useless tatters that still have to be removed and replaced.

We found this to be not true. 
The damaged sail retains a good amount of driving power even if teared completely. (in game this parameter is set at 30%) 
Not only that. Rig itself with NO SAILS and/or hull with no rig has a lot of driving power and leeway power that it alone can move the ship to the side in very strong wind (but without direction of course). 

[HachiRoku]

45 minutes ago, Rook said:

Decrease accuracy of chain-shot

Chain is already nerfed to an all time low. It's only 4 broadsides vs as many sail repairs as you want. It's so easy to angle yards and hide sail area. Chains also have a huge range damage drop-off so it's either that or lower accuracy. 

[Rook]

1 hour ago, admin said:

We found this to be not true. 
The damaged sail retains a good amount of driving power even if teared completely. (in game this parameter is set at 30%) 
Not only that. Rig itself with NO SAILS and/or hull with no rig has a lot of driving power and leeway power that it alone can move the ship to the side in very strong wind (but without direction of course). 

Right o. Can you comment on this one?

1 hour ago, Rook said:

- Introduce press-and-hold function to the "Single-fire"/"Range" button (Spacebar). Press-and-hold would function similar to the Fire button. While the Spacebar is held your guns will start to fire a normal volley, releasing the spacebar will cease fire. Good for "fire as they bare", while retaining the normal fire button for other circumstances.

Any hope for additional gunnery controls?

o7

Edited March 6, 2019 by Rook

[HachiRoku]

52 minutes ago, Wraith said:

And honestly, why bother with chain when a single well-timed broadside of carros will take at least one mast?  

Depends on the ship in all fairness. It was also the case before the patch. Dismasting has not changed much to be fair. Bigger ships can dismast small ones faster but equal ships are the same. 

[Aquillas]

How are the combat medals working now? 

I made some PvP and won from times to times, being granted of some 100 doubloons and points in the PvP leaderboard. But I never received a single combat medal...

Are these rewards granted in the dedicated patrol area only?

Edited March 6, 2019 by Eleazar de Damas

[Cmdr RideZ]

On 3/4/2019 at 5:12 PM, Mr. Doran said:

What balances out the potency of raking fire when it is actually deadly is the relative difficulty of doing it compared to hull bashing. It is much harder to fight for the position necessary to  perform a rake than it is to force a pass on the enemy's broadside.

I wish old tutorial were still available but the new one is there. That is not exactly PvP situation but takes us to the right direction.

Test it. You will see that hull bashing is the most difficult way to win. You can wait that devs make it easier. You will see that admin by purpose makes it so that with tricks it is easy to win. The previous tutorial was made so that with tricks every nub was able to do it. The same nubs were not able to do it with hull bashing.

So far admin has probably never evaluated how much skill it needs and base effectiviness on somewhat around that. Ships were even more agile than now. Cannons are really accurate.

Masts for example. There has been always players who win multiple enemies by dismasting and boarding. Because by purpose this was made so damn easy. If you don't have the gear or didn't know that this was defined to be the fotm, sucks to be you.

How can you hide your masts? How can you defend your masts with skill? There are maybe some very minor things you can do but pretty much nothing that you can do. Except one lazy way called gear. Gear or repair kits seem to be the answer to all broken combat features.

It is not about balanced options in combat, it is more like what admin thinks is going to be the meta for today. The combat model was in much better balance but the predefined metas has pretty much destroyed it. admins way is more like how efficient different things should be in his opinion, instead of trying to find balance.

 

@admin I am also really sorry to say that. I am not sure if you ever even wanted to balance the game and give us good PvP. I have no idea if you ever wanted to have another tournament or esports. Examples?

If you actually and honestly try to find balance and then you introduce Kirimati masts and Poods? How can you even remotely think that you can find a balance with these?

Repair kits? When one players has kits and another does not, how can you balance this? Oh, it was never meant to be in balance, you lose if you don't have kits? You have enough space to take kits for one even fight or go ganking.

Don't take it on just these two, it is full of your FOTM.

 

@Mr. Doran Admin pretty much indirectly kicked PvP players out by saying that this game is not for them. That is his final answer. After that the circus has been going on.

[Rabman]

6 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

Depends on the ship in all fairness. It was also the case before the patch. Dismasting has not changed much to be fair. Bigger ships can dismast small ones faster but equal ships are the same. 

with the exception that you can land a well timed rake and gut all of the structure on a healthy ship to speeds like being at 50% sails, with ball with one rake against a comparable ship.

[Zlatkowar]

On 2/28/2019 at 11:39 AM, admin said:

Rewards for participation will be provided in form of redeemables next week (4th-8th March). 
Everyone who accumulated 25 kills (including 5 boarding wins) will receive a rare ship Santa Cecilia and 5 paint chests.

At some point I understood that this would come along with economy wipe. Any news on this part?

[Aquillas]

11 minutes ago, rediii said:

you need to accept the pvp missions first

Thanks @rediii

@admin So we have to resign the PVE missions we took before (most of them uncompleted because this is a long term accomplishment), to have room to take these PvP ones (I guess very specific for the ship type, rate or location), keeping in mind that some room could be required for hostility missions?...

I know that this game is still in development and that every thing will be wiped far before all missions will be completed, but this very discouraging and denying value to tester activity... I am normally always positive, and don't post negative messages, but here is a point were disappointment overreaches my patience capability.

I really don't known if I'll test that...

Edited March 6, 2019 by Eleazar de Damas

[Aquillas]

Or we should need dedicated slots to PVE missions, dedicated slots to PvP missions, and dedicated slots to hostility missions...

[Mr. Doran]

3 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

 

How can you hide your masts? How can you defend your masts with skill? There are maybe some very minor things you can do but pretty much nothing that you can do. Except one lazy way called gear. Gear or repair kits seem to be the answer to all broken combat features.

 

If demasting was limited to very close range IE 50-75 meters for most frigates you would be able to defend your mast with sailing and sailing alone. If you do not enter demasting range you will not be demasted. In order to make such an implementation a reality gear needs to be addressed. The current gear situation around masts is lunacy and no high-skill cap model for demasting can be had with it.