Patch 30: Combat and boarding feedback

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

12 hours ago, --Privateer-- said:

Most people just call it kiting, this play style should not be catered to. When one or both sides of the battle are too afraid of losing their ship to ever actually engage, it's boring. I've done some 1v1s where I could out repair any damage the enemy was doing, not because of any repair mods, but because they never got close enough to do any real damage.

I don't say getting close and dealing maximum damages should not be the most efficient way to go, i just say carronades in this situation is superior by a huge margin (and they probably should be (appart for accurate mast sniping)), but as they are as easily accessible as any other long cannon, the later dissapeared, same for ships not able to use carro for main deck.

 

The fact you can outrepair damages dealt from distance is also symptomatic of something broken.

 Kiting is boring but what to do when closing in vs a carro ship is suicide ?

Edited April 18, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

my two cents on the mechanics: First, the repair system is too much arcade style. there could be thresholds introduced. a severely damaged vessel shouldn't be able to repair that much in battle. demasting is too arcade as well. how about demasting only possible after a certain amount of saildamage? Best wishes, Gene

[Vernon Merrill]

13 hours ago, --Privateer-- said:

Most people just call it kiting, this play style should not be catered to. When one or both sides of the battle are too afraid of losing their ship to ever actually engage, it's boring. I've done some 1v1s where I could out repair any damage the enemy was doing, not because of any repair mods, but because they never got close enough to do any real damage.

 

That’s because some players have the attention span of a flea.   Just because the meta is speed/carros doesn’t mean I have to adhere to it.  I’ll be damned if I get into a pure DPS fight.  Sailing parallel to each other and exchanging broadsides may be fun for some, but all it really does is show who was able to find the best mods and woods.  

I may not win every battle, but I’ll be damned if I let my ship be taken based purely on statistics.  

#dontbeavictimofmeta

[Beeekonda]

2 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

With long guns I want to be able to shoot ships equipped with carronades from the distance without recieving shots myself. What else is the purpose of long guns? This must be a working tactic, although due to the high ships speeds it is quite difficult to use.

I therefore understand why many players use carronades and close quite aggressively to fight in short range. It is the much easier way to fight the enemy. 

2. The one who takes a lot of hull damage due to his bad tactics, can, when his sails are still ok, run for some time and repair a lot of damage, then return and fight on. The amount of repairs depends on mods.

 I have experienced it several times, usually I was not able to repair the same amount of hull damage and finally lost the battle. Today this is a valid tactic and I cannot blame the players to use it, but it is not what I understand as (semi)historical naval battles. 

It would be ok for me, if the player discontinues the fight and runs before sinking (a captain should save his ship in the first line), I just hate that repairing of nearly full hitpoints of the hull during battle. It shouldn't be more than plugging holes. For the rig, I would allow some repairs that were somehow from a historical point of view plausible.

1. To be able to have advantage over carronade armament you need to stay on 300+ distance. Your opponent realizes that you don't want to close up and just hits the best course and runs

2. Whatever damage you do on that distance is neglected by his repair.

I've done many 1v1s in which player who pops hull repair first loses. 

2 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

You are correct. Long range gunnery is not possible in this game, one side needs to get close, or other runs away. 

Repairs should be limited, able to repair up to 7 times in battle instance, is stupid. After 2-3 repairs back to where battle started. Start over, repeat till battle ends, this is what happens in big ships. 

Long range gunnery is possible, you just need to understand that you cant snipe your opponent from miles away. 

A proper 1v1 engagement will not last more than 2 repairs. 

 

[Petrel_]

12 hours ago, Sveteran said:

@admin If You Escape You Should Escape! 

Story; 1. I attack an ai trader, 5 mins in joins the battle, I decide to fight him instead of the AI, I get the advantage after 5 mins of fighting, he starts to run away kiting me. I put my sails up because I cba chasing him wasting his and my time. 2. I write to him in PM that I dont want to fight him if he doesent want to, he is still chasing me after the battle. He tags me as im heading towards a open port for repairs and what not. 3. We engage again in battle, it seems like he wants to fight, I go into him with boarding just to test him. He has the upper hand in boarding + - 100 crew but I got marines, he even has me crew shocked once. He disengages and immediately starts to run away, and you all can guess what happens next. 4. He leaves first, and of course he has a friend there (LGV Refit), so out of nowhere his friend has hyper jumped from probably Williemstad and over to our battle to help out his friend which is already by all means in an advantage. 5. A new tag by them now with the LGV refit in chase, my only chance is trying to go upwind and out tack them, it works and i can eventually escape. Now rinse and repeat although the wind is terrible, they have so much more chain than me i give up because its hopeless and i refuse to give them some kind of content.

So to my point @admin .. Is this what you want your game to be? A huge gank fest that would let one guy hyper jump days maybe weeks away from a spot to reinforce a player? I've seen so many suggestions that would help your mechanics which you either ignore or downprioritize with it and jump over to the next one. I would be all good if this engagement was in first or 2nd battle where i got tagged but when a player can do this over and over and over and over and over again without penalty something is seriously wrong..

I dont know what your problem is, you even wrote in the chat why we are not on PVE Server made some joke and felt great, until you have seen there is no chance for escape anymore. And subsequently you surrender because you lost nothing just a DLC. 

Off topic: btw it was the second guy in this evening who simply surrender because of DLC Ship-its also interessting

Regards Petrel ☺

[Angus MacDuff]

3 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

You are correct. Long range gunnery is not possible in this game, one side needs to get close, or other runs away. 

I've battled with both carros and longs and enjoy both as a style.  Carros, is close in Knife fighting where the higher DPS is the winner.  Heavy Carros, speed and fast turning win it.  You'll know in 2 broadsides if you're going to win or lose.  Long gun fighting is more elegant.  Keep your distance upwind and carefully aimed broadsides are critical.  There is nothing funnier than watching an all carro ship's broadsides falling short while yours are hitting home.  If he runs downwind, you can chain his sails with bow chasers or work on his stern.  If you're fitted out right, he's not getting away.

[Vernon Merrill]

56 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I've battled with both carros and longs and enjoy both as a style.  Carros, is close in Knife fighting where the higher DPS is the winner.  Heavy Carros, speed and fast turning win it.  You'll know in 2 broadsides if you're going to win or lose.  Long gun fighting is more elegant.  Keep your distance upwind and carefully aimed broadsides are critical.  There is nothing funnier than watching an all carro ship's broadsides falling short while yours are hitting home.  If he runs downwind, you can chain his sails with bow chasers or work on his stern.  If you're fitted out right, he's not getting away.

And watch the salt flow....

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

but if he is fitted right too he will outrepair any damage you deal on him and you will never get the kill.

[Angus MacDuff]

Just now, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

but if he is fitted right too he will outrepair any damage you deal on him and you will never get the kill.

As has been said before...not all battles end in a sinking.  If a player is determined to run and/or kite, he will do so.  I'm pretty quick to give up the chase if it looks like turning into a 90 minute game of hide and seek.  We all know when we can catch someone.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

still my point was that :

• carro > long gun to sink enemy ship (the only thing you get rewards for), as long cannon damages outside carronade range will be outrepaired (and the other way is not true).
• Carronades are as accessible as long cannon and cheap to craft.

I don't say to change anything into the balance, carronade was a great innovation and considered fearsome by the time, they just could be a rarer sight.

 

[John Cavanaugh]

4 hours ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

long cannon damages outside carronade range will be outrepaired 

 

This is more true now than during the last damage model, but as always the key when playing a long fitted kiting ship is to split damage. If they rep sails focus hull, if they rep hull focus masts. The ability to deal nearly full structure damage through bow and stern is a boon to long guns though. If anything should be tweaked on the damage model, it is problem of not being able to reduce the last bar of structure through raking. There have been times I’ve been sat on the stern of a larger ship, and simply been unable to finish the fight due to that problem

[Capitalism]

37 minutes ago, John Cavanaugh said:

There have been times I’ve been sat on the stern of a larger ship, and simply been unable to finish the fight due to that problem

Board?

[John Cavanaugh]

1 hour ago, Capitalism said:

Board?

Snow vs Ratt. Got crew down to 150 but not lower. DD is a bitch

[Barbancourt]

10 hours ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

still my point was that :

• carro > long gun to sink enemy ship (the only thing you get rewards for), as long cannon damages outside carronade range will be outrepaired (and the other way is not true).

 

If that's true it's a huge problem with the damage and repairing model.  Long cannons should be the primary armament choice. 

 

[angriff]

Put back the need for a fleet perk if players want to capture ships in PVP they will have to take the risk of one less perk.  The game is imbalanced for fleets that are worse than AI in missions. and capturing a ships should be a skill not a gift.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

How about no.  

Any ship can sent price crew on board of a surrendered one, why would we have to be forced to scuttle our prize ?

[Angus MacDuff]

7 hours ago, angriff said:

Put back the need for a fleet perk if players want to capture ships in PVP they will have to take the risk of one less perk.  The game is imbalanced for fleets that are worse than AI in missions. and capturing a ships should be a skill not a gift.

Winning the battle is the skill, whether it be by sinking or boarding.  Devs made the right decision to give us the automatic Fleet1 perk.

[angriff]

17 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Winning the battle is the skill, whether it be by sinking or boarding.  Devs made the right decision to give us the automatic Fleet1 perk.

Now there lies a quandary.  Is it skill when any first day player can capture an AI trader?  Does the experienced player get any better and capturing AI traders?  IMHO NO!  The basic skill is not a skill at all but a gift by the devs to make AI and assumed fleet an easy target and therefore not worthy of being in the game.  A gift of a fleet ship because it sails bad is still the same socialism of the AI trader.

 

Fleets should be obsoleted like they were 2 year ago or at least make the skilled player take a risk to be able to capture it.   If they don't capture or kill the live player they cant capture.  They can board and take loot if they can carry but with no skill required why the gift of a free perk?  A player should take a chance on his perks just like the guy that takes 3 fleet perks and gives up the read loaded or low dispersion perks.  Why give so called skilled players crutch and diminish their skill value?

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

Still not understanding the issue..

Someone win a boarding, meaning his crew is on board of the defeated ship that is still afloat, why he couldn't take control of it and bring it to port ? That's how most of the fights by the time ended..

If you can't defend your traders you put in fleet, why a player who board one could not seize it ? Do the idea your that your fleet & cargo will be sunk with no recovery possible make you feel more confortable ? That is weird.

I never sail with a ship in fleet but i'm very happy that i can bring home captured ships without having to waste a perk, and i think that was to point in granting 1fleet slot to all.

[Angus MacDuff]

6 hours ago, angriff said:

A player should take a chance on his perks just like the guy that takes 3 fleet perks and gives up the read loaded or low dispersion perks.  Why give so called skilled players crutch and diminish their skill value?

I think you are looking at this as a free perk when many others are saying that this should never have been a perk at all. The devs were asked to remove this as a perk because it is natural to be able to take a captured ship home and should not require anything extra.  As far as capturing an ai ship...yes, it is a skill and some people find it very easy with experience.  It was very challenging for me in my first 3 hours of the game.

[Vernon Merrill]

Well this is heartbreaking:

We tried to give this the chance once again but it seems that unique steam ID tracking in missions is the best way to close al potential loopholes. 
It is better to do it before release so we never have to come back to these issues ever again. Even one person farming can ruin the impression on the overall system, thus such loopholes must be closed. 

As a result

• Combat medals will no longer be provided for OW kills. They will only be granted for missions/orders and patrols completion. As missions require to sink unique captains (and track steam ID) it is impossible or very very hard to farm combat medals on alts
• Rewards for missions will be increased accordingly.  

[Angus MacDuff]

Yeah, not great.  Alt abuse is a common thing and I've always said you shouldn't design around it.  If someone wants to cheat himself in order to make false gains, that's his loss.  With the increase on rewards for missions, i'd hope that our production remains the same, especially as there are high price items that require CM's.

[Vernon Merrill]

I suppose the workaround is to try and find enough “PvP missions” to cover most targets.  

Power-gamers can ruin anything.

[Serk]

5 minutes ago, Routan said:

But

Maybe just me who dosen’t get it. In mission does OW PvP kill not count? If it does,  how does this prevent alt farming. I kill my alt and it does ciunt,  as a kill in the mission right? Before I  got the reward right away, Now I just have to kill my alt 6-10 times to get the mission reward. But in the end I will get the same reward, right?

As I understand it, OW pvp kills count for the completion of the PVP kill mission you can take in your journal. You then get the CM after completing 10 PVP kills.  

[Vernon Merrill]

10 minutes ago, Routan said:

But

Maybe just me who dosen’t get it. In mission does OW PvP kill not count? If it does,  how does this prevent alt farming. I kill my alt and it does ciunt,  as a kill in the mission right? Before I  got the reward right away, Now I just have to kill my alt 6-10 times to get the mission reward. But in the end I will get the same reward, right?

I honestly don’t know.  My guess is that it’s easier to track if you kill the same steam id’s over and over.  

Its not a huge deal, I suppose   Just disappointing that they have to do these things because, people   

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Vernon Merrill