Patch 30: Combat and boarding feedback

[Potemkin]

i get the realism angle but the fires being unstoppable in common situations as well as prone to explosion during said fires is a pain in the ass for brawling ships of the line

[Teutonic]

it's a little crazy how quickly fire spreads and how quickly you can explode because of it. I do not believe this is a good change.

I think a way to make a fire-ship an interesting strategy choice is nice, but this is the wrong approach.

[Zlatkowar]

Love this new firework party. Focused fire works great. Might need to tune it down but really not by much.

[Aerospace]

On 3/19/2019 at 3:36 PM, dr0n441 said:

He had Inger lool . Battle was Vic ( Moscalb ) vs Inger+ Ocean. Its wasn't 800 vs 900 it was 800 vs 1200 

But inger escaped long before you entered, so this is another stupid mechanic ? 

Cause pirate can join my battle, and just exit, so other side open to bigger BR !

Was he still in battle when you joined ?

I think we need a clear explanation from @admin how this 20 minute rule and BR limitations work.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Aerospace

[TheLoneWolf]

I tried the new damage model and do not feel it is fun nor realistic.

In essence, you can sink an equal ship in 3-5 broadsides.  After 2-3 broadsides, the enemy ship is crippled as it has lost all it speed and takes on water.  Prepared perk amplifies this absurdity. 

During US time you can sail about an hour to find pvp.  The battles last less than a few minutes with the new damage model.  That is no fun.  The new damage models does away with the tactics and strategy that made naval action fun.  It is useless to look at stern raking or shooting sails to get an advantage.  Your only concern now is getting those 3-5 broadside in.  Had this damage model been the case at Trafalgar, the whole battle would have lasted a few minutes !

Also, the amount of damage delivered per broadside negates the mid-tier woods.  What is the point of sacrificing 3-5% speed for a teak ship to get maybe 3-5 % more hp when a broadside does 20-25% damage or so.  You are better off to go fir fir and pick on smaller ships.

Also with 20-25% damage per broadside, repairs are almost useless as you will not have time to repair before the next broadside or even turn away for that matter.   

The result of this is we will polarize ships with one extreme being fir fir (not catchable) and live oak white oak (or the close to it) with floating battery at the other extreme.  So the fir fir will sail away if it encounters a live oak white oak ship.  This will only result in frustration for pvp as you will get few engagements.  If you try to shoot sails the opponent will shoot hull. 

The new damage model also makes it almost suicidal to take on a larger ship with a smaller one.  So here again, we will experience frustration with the smaller ship running away and pvp will be a large ship picks on smaller ships if it can catch it.

I also tested it on the pve server and this leads to absurd results.  The ai ships are now 15+ knots ships that can run away, tack, turn around and re-engage in front of you while you are still trying to follow them.  Not to mention that the ai can sail backwards faster than you can sail forwards!  Shooting sails has barely any effect.  Same with crew.  During a tack, I lost all the armor on one side of my 1st rate in a fight 1v1 with an ai 1st rate.  This was ok in epic events etc. as you took a ship equipped for this but for grinding it is frustrating as you will look to grind smaller ships with a larger one.  If you try boarding, the ai ship will easily drop 100 crew of your first rate as you sail towards them. 

Sad to say, but the new damage model is a regression and not progression.  Hopefully it will revert to the old model as I am not tempted to play with this new model as it negates any fun that was present in the game before.

 

 

[Forbin]

10 hours ago, Zlatkowar said:

Love this new firework party. Focused fire works great. Might need to tune it down but really not by much.

Yep, and we should equip our ships with torpedoes and missiles, PvP would be faster....

The new fire spreading is an other very bad choice if not equipped with fireship, revert back please.

[RKY]

1 hour ago, TheLoneWolf said:

I tried the new damage model and do not feel it is fun nor realistic.

In essence, you can sink an equal ship in 3-5 broadsides.  After 2-3 broadsides, the enemy ship is crippled as it has lost all it speed and takes on water.  Prepared perk amplifies this absurdity. 

During US time you can sail about an hour to find pvp.  The battles last less than a few minutes with the new damage model.  That is no fun.  The new damage models does away with the tactics and strategy that made naval action fun.  It is useless to look at stern raking or shooting sails to get an advantage.  Your only concern now is getting those 3-5 broadside in.  Had this damage model been the case at Trafalgar, the whole battle would have lasted a few minutes !

Also, the amount of damage delivered per broadside negates the mid-tier woods.  What is the point of sacrificing 3-5% speed for a teak ship to get maybe 3-5 % more hp when a broadside does 20-25% damage or so.  You are better off to go fir fir and pick on smaller ships.

Also with 20-25% damage per broadside, repairs are almost useless as you will not have time to repair before the next broadside or even turn away for that matter.   

The result of this is we will polarize ships with one extreme being fir fir (not catchable) and live oak white oak (or the close to it) with floating battery at the other extreme.  So the fir fir will sail away if it encounters a live oak white oak ship.  This will only result in frustration for pvp as you will get few engagements.  If you try to shoot sails the opponent will shoot hull. 

The new damage model also makes it almost suicidal to take on a larger ship with a smaller one.  So here again, we will experience frustration with the smaller ship running away and pvp will be a large ship picks on smaller ships if it can catch it.

I also tested it on the pve server and this leads to absurd results.  The ai ships are now 15+ knots ships that can run away, tack, turn around and re-engage in front of you while you are still trying to follow them.  Not to mention that the ai can sail backwards faster than you can sail forwards!  Shooting sails has barely any effect.  Same with crew.  During a tack, I lost all the armor on one side of my 1st rate in a fight 1v1 with an ai 1st rate.  This was ok in epic events etc. as you took a ship equipped for this but for grinding it is frustrating as you will look to grind smaller ships with a larger one.  If you try boarding, the ai ship will easily drop 100 crew of your first rate as you sail towards them. 

Sad to say, but the new damage model is a regression and not progression.  Hopefully it will revert to the old model as I am not tempted to play with this new model as it negates any fun that was present in the game before.

 

 

You are just terribad and need to learn how to play. You are blaming everything but your poor captainship.

Ask yourself how come some players manage to get so many kills with a single ship in a single battle on equivalent ship to their foes.

And AI aint that much of a deal. You must be one of those complaining about final exam being "IMPOSSIBLE" to complete while some others can still finish it under 20min.

[Zlatkowar]

3 hours ago, Forbin said:

Yep, and we should equip our ships with torpedoes and missiles, PvP would be faster....

The new fire spreading is an other very bad choice if not equipped with fireship, revert back please.

I don't care about PvP. It is a fun feature. Fun is love. Fun is life.

[TheLoneWolf]

4 hours ago, RKY said:

You are just terribad and need to learn how to play. You are blaming everything but your poor captainship.

Ask yourself how come some players manage to get so many kills with a single ship in a single battle on equivalent ship to their foes.

And AI aint that much of a deal. You must be one of those complaining about final exam being "IMPOSSIBLE" to complete while some others can still finish it under 20min.

LOL I have many hours in this game and believe I know how to play. 

I used to take on 1st rates with my connie and once capped two player vics with my wasa.  Those were fun days.  This is almost impossible now with the new damage model.

[Angus MacDuff]

2 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

LOL I have many hours in this game and believe I know how to play. 

I used to take on 1st rates with my connie and once capped two player vics with my wasa.  Those were fun days.  This is almost impossible now with the new damage model.

That was the point of the new model.  A Connie should not be able to survive near a 1st rate.

[Holm Hansen]

All in all, the battles now go much too fast and miss every room for tactical considerations. especially battles 5th rate vs 5th rate. For this impression, it does not matter if you are on the winner or loser side.

[TheLoneWolf]

7 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

That was the point of the new model.  A Connie should not be able to survive near a 1st rate.

Agreed with connie and 1st but you should not be able to sink equal ship in 3-5 broadsides.  Trafalgar lasted hours with ships pounding each other point blank...  Solution is to seriously up 1st rate hit points etc. and other ships.  This is where things are not balanced.  The example cited for the new damage model had the other ship strikes it colours after 3 broadsides.  Striking colours is not the same as sinking.  Also, although the game tries to be somewhat realistic it is a game and the prime criteria should be fun not an quick arcade combat.  Leave that to WOW etc.

[angriff]

Determined Defender - possible bug 

 

I was in a battle today and pretty much was whipped having lost my main mast in one broadside so the guy came over and appeared to try to board me.  I saw what appeared to be a pulling action then I saw a yellow report stopped by determined defender.

The thing is I did not have that Perk.  I carried it once but not at that time.   Did his determined defender perk stop him or did the tag just not change when I changed my perks?

Edited March 21, 2019 by angriff

[William Death]

17 hours ago, RKY said:

You are just terribad and need to learn how to play. You are blaming everything but your poor captainship.

Ask yourself how come some players manage to get so many kills with a single ship in a single battle on equivalent ship to their foes.

And AI aint that much of a deal. You must be one of those complaining about final exam being "IMPOSSIBLE" to complete while some others can still finish it under 20min.

I think you're reaching there. I've sailed with @TheLoneWolf before, and he is certainly not "terribad" or in need of "learning how to play." Lone Wolf has the skill needed to play Naval Action competitively in PvP.

How to get many kills with the same ship? Fight noobs. Thats how I did it on the old damage model. Thats how some friends and I won a 4v17 when we were in 3rd rates and the enemy was in 1st-5th rates. See the great thing about fighting less-skilled players is that that tactic works no matter what combat model we have .

Normal AI isn't bad. But have you tried the buffed mission AI recently? The same ones that spawn in epic events? They're quite powerful. Certainly not impossible to take on, but far more challenging than they should be.

 

So I'll state it again: please go back to the old damage model, it worked much better.

[RKY]

9 hours ago, William Death said:

How to get many kills with the same ship? Fight noobs. Thats how I did it on the old damage model.

You proved my point. It is time for you to assume you are noob before complaining about mechanics.

[Zlatkowar]

17 hours ago, TheLoneWolf said:

Agreed with connie and 1st but you should not be able to sink equal ship in 3-5 broadsides.  Trafalgar lasted hours with ships pounding each other point blank...

Comparisons with IRL battles are quite irrelevant. IG speed is greatly increased, else we'd fall asleep, and I would not want to reach the point where the crew surrenders based on morale, casualties and eventually captain's leadership after one single broadside. That would be terrible.

[William Death]

2 hours ago, RKY said:

You proved my point. It is time for you to assume you are noob before complaining about mechanics.

Mechanics change ----> skilled players state that mechanic changes are bad, provide feedback on how to fix them ----> said players are obviously noobs because they complain.

That, captain, is infallible logic! 

 

I'm beginning to think the other way, actually. In what reality is it good for the game that ships are obliterated in just a few broadsides by the same class ship? What kind of reasoning is good that makes fir/fir speedfit SOLs kings of OW hunting instead of fast frigates and 4th rates (as it should be)? How can the new damage model be considered good if you remember the good days of Naval Action when battles were won and lost by positioning, well-timed broadsides, and perfectly executed maneuvers?

Now you just get in a bigger ship than your enemy and shoot hull till one of the HP bars is gone. Battles are often determined before they start, and they're over quickly if one side has even a small advantage in firepower or HP numbers. Coincidentally, this is very good for those *ahem* less-skilled players who couldn't hack it with the previous damage models. Perhaps there is correlation to the fact that most of those players are the same ones who are enamored with the new damage model? 

So, who is really the noob? The ones who point out issues with the combat model that shouldn't be there, and suggests ideas to correct those issues, or the players who say "git gud and adapt you noob."

I'm sure we can "adapt" to the new damage model. Doesn't mean its better than the old one. I've adapted to the new port UI, but I still hate it. I've also adapted to all the various metas that have arisen over the years, but that doesn't mean they should be here. 

[Teutonic]

@William Death

I do ask you to try this current damage model again. Literally every battle I have been in has not been as bad as you say, in fact I like how it is to a certain degree. I have done both deep water and shallow water and either different rates along with fighting both smaller and larger.

I think we are still looking at outliers and thinking it is the norm when it is not.

I only had 2 battles before carro damage was nerfed that lasted less than 5 minutes. Every other battle has been significantly average of what it was like before.

 

 

[William Death]

2 hours ago, Teutonic said:

@William Death

I do ask you to try this current damage model again. Literally every battle I have been in has not been as bad as you say, in fact I like how it is to a certain degree. I have done both deep water and shallow water and either different rates along with fighting both smaller and larger.

I think we are still looking at outliers and thinking it is the norm when it is not.

I only had 2 battles before carro damage was nerfed that lasted less than 5 minutes. Every other battle has been significantly average of what it was like before.

 

 

Oh I am trying it still. I'm drifting about now, looking for action that is not in the gank patrol zone or shallow water bumper boats. Just ganked a player in a Christian, all players involved lamented damage model and the kinds of engagements it encourages.

As I said, I can adapt to it. Fighting similar rate ships, even, its not that bad. But with even a bit of a caliber difference, ships melt far too quickly. 

So yes, I can adapt to it. I can adapt to it the same way that a person adapts to a broken finger while it heals. But I don't like it, and its not good for the game as a whole when decent ships and mods are ridiculously expensive and hard to replace, but get lost in a couple minutes because "REALISM! You can't sail your frigate past my SOL! Git gud!"

 

Better to revert to the old damage model that worked well, just tweak it some. Limit repairs, adjust the HP values on certain ships (*cough* Hercules, Victory, Wapen), and implement a radius of musket fire that causes crew to tick down if you enter it (to reduce hugging tactics, which I understand was one of the goals of the patch). 

 

But what do I know about Naval Action, I'm a noob. 

[Aerospace]

The skill I see,

a) Kiting skill for 1 hour 30 minutes in more than average speed big ships.

b) Repair mods meta. Stack northern master carpenters and 2 other repair mods. Unlimited repairs and now with reduced weight! 

c) Use gold or purple ships, so 1-2 slots more to put op upgrades.

d) just keep kiting and repairing, slap smaller ships catching up.

e) in the process kill inexperienced captains. Brag about how good and godly you are, how noob remaining are...

*** We all know, 1 vs 1 duel in 1st rates of good captains, is unlikely finish in 1.30 hours, due to repair system.

Show me same skills with 3 set of repairs allowed  in one battle.

Show me same skills when repair timer is much longer.

This is killing the game, please limit repairs in battle instance, let real and tactical skill shine.

 

 

[Sea Archer]

I like the new damage model in the way guns do damage. Still the ships should be more durable and dismasting should be harder. The battles are too short in my opinion. 

After playing the game with the new model, I would still prefer to have no structural damage (which causes sinking), but just leaks that can only be partly fixed, so that more and more crew is required to keep the ship afloat. While damage above the waterline will only kill crew, cannons and masts.

I think that would somehow be more realistic

[mikawa]

I got now used to new damage system and I like it a lot.

Also very good are the missions with gold chests who draw players near enemy towns in search of targets.

Well done so far ... +1+1+1

[Dalai Lama]

There is an easy way to exploit the current ROE with cross nation groups by just joining the opposite side and increasing the BR so your friends of the other nation can join the opposite side.

Tested it in following battle and reported via F11:

(No Pirates were harmed in the production of this image)

Edited April 1, 2019 by Henry Durnin

[Aerospace]

@Henry Durnin you should definitly been harming the rat !

[Aerospace]

10 hours ago, NOJODU said:

Please make boarding stances dynamic (instead of static) with a warm-up timer of a few seconds. Initial stance effective should be really low (25% or 50% maybe to start with?) and should increase to 100% over few seconds (3, 4 or 5 if you ask me).

This is what I purposed long time ago. But ! after my post he came up with hiding commands ! I feel responsible, I could not make him understand this warm up feature.

just example;

ATTACK needs 7 seconds to charge to full power 

MUSKETS needs 4 seconds etc.

Now we have the newbie rage quit mechanic instead which is hidden commands.