What is content?

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

17 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Whats the glue between the combat events?

Man, that's a million individual answers question and I'll try to look it from a hobby perspective, which it is. Can't possibly cover them all.

For some the chain of combat after combat is simply what is needed, without any ulterior motivation other than... that fight. One fight ends, another starts. Their expectations meet immediate and as fast as possible get into combat. These are the guys that play the games for the game, not the models. They go for what it works and what wins. IF NA would be a tabletop tournament they would be scouring for "winning army lists" and no matter what, that's what they take. They would love an Arena mode.

For others is the string of events, what did result from winning or losing that particular combat. Like a branch campaign. They love writing lore for their captains, for the ships. They would love a Career based mode.

For others can be simply a way to enjoy the models and how cool they move and the smoke and the sparkles. These are the guys that love the "fluff" above the "crutch", to put it in a tabletop sense. The game is great if it is backed up by a rich lore. They essentially can enjoy the open seas but don't see them trapped in an arena.

Then you have the entire sect that wants nothing to do with "violent" encounters and simply wants to do "peaceful tasks" that at the same time have the same elegant feeling that the combat aficionados desire.

A chain of trade, without any motivation other than each day a new route. Each trip a new small fortume. Completely uninterested by all the rest.

Others wish to see their trade or crafting as a strong supporter of the ongoing campaign. Like they would be the ground crew in a flight simulator, the unseen guys that keep the aces flying.

And to end, the guys that just dig the models and the sailing around.

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

Man, that's a million individual answers question and I'll try to look it from a hobby perspective, which it is. 

For some the chain of combat after combat is simply what is needed, without any ulterior motivation other than... that fight. One fight ends, another starts. Their expectations meet immediate and as fast as possible get into combat.

For others is the string of events, what did result from winning or losing that particular combat. Like a branch campaign.

For others can be simply a way to enjoy the models and how cool they move and the smoke and the sparkles.

Then you have the entire sect that wants nothing to do with "violent" encounters and simply wants to do "peaceful tasks" that at the same time have the same elegant feeling that the combat aficionados desire.

A chain of trade, without any motivation other than each day a new route. Each trip a new small fortume. Completely uninterested by all the rest.

Others wish to see their trade or crafting as a strong supporter of the ongoing campaign. Like they would be the ground crew in a flight simulator, the unseen guys that keep the aces flying.

And to end, the guys that just dig the models and the sailing around.

well said. For me the glue between the battles would be a loading screen to the next battle :p 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Edited the post a bit. Might make sense for some.

Thing is.... each game is what each game is. And not all games are for everyone, obviously.

But, Naval Action being in a laboratory state and under development, means the devs can do whatever they see fit with ALL the testing we have done so far.

Never ever ever look to any present state as final.

Only on Release we might say, okay, this is it. And even then many games change.

 

[HachiRoku]

Just now, Wraith said:

Seriously, could you be more obtuse?  I'm not going to go back through thousands of posts from the last three years and provide every piece of suggested content that I and others have proposed to help eke something viable for new and casual players out of the game.  I've already provided you with very concrete categories of content that are missing in my earlier posts in this thread, it's not my fault you choose to ignore them. 🙄

Your point is very clear in that you feel like the game is just about ships and combat.  And that would be fine if we did away with the OW and made a lobby game that people wanted to play. But the fact of the matter is that the huge majority of people who bought NA don't want to play that game (see Legends' fate again). SO.. I'll turn that back around on you: What's your point? What's the point of this thread?

I've given you a very general and adaptable definition of "content" which in my words is the shit that holds the game together between combat instances.  You claim that it's all about sailing, well, if we start there then sure, sailing is boring af. There are thousands of ideas out there that could make sailing less of a grind and give people something to do. There have been hundreds of quality of life features that have been proposed to ease that grind and provide "content" other than point your ship in a direction and alt-tab over to Netflix for a couple hours (e.g. navigation tools, access to crafting and econ while at sea, exploration and gathering tasks, random events, etc. etc. etc.). I just don't understand what it is that you're looking for out of this thread other than to bitch and moan that we aren't all happy with the thin broth we're being fed, and falling over ourselves being thrilled that we're continually asked to test the same shit we've already tested a thousand times before, and found it wanting the last 999 times.

I mean... there's an ENTIRE forum section devoted to suggesting "content," the vast majority of it just goes ignored and uncommented on let alone implemented by developers. Which is their prerogative but don't say that the ideas about that "glue" aren't out there because I and many others have been throwing them out there for years.

Yeah, You are basically saying that existing mechanics that are not designed well are a lack of content. Content in games is generally considered new additions and NOT fixing existing ones. Were you ever part of a commuity that gives feedback to a developer? Do you know that it is impossible that 3 devs can listen to the vast majority of people right. 

Legends Failed because a 3 man developer cannot make 2 games at the same time. I believe legends was going to be free to play also. A good idea. Btw. Legends never failed because it never was a game. It was a idea the devs had and never really cared about. 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

I love fluff with solid crutch. Also love the models. But i'm easy and I hate metas.

 

 

[StaleMemes]

8 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Yeah, You are basically saying that existing mechanics that are not designed well are a lack of content.

No he isn't! He so totally isn't that its not even funny!

[Draymoor]

Basically, content is complexity, depth, layers, variation, options, etc. 

[jodgi]

I've watched years of discussion, suggestions, requests and nagging about "content". This content is advertised as something extremely crucial to recruiting and retaining players. Out of all these important things I've never seen any mention of anything I would enjoy. I've concluded I'm insane.

[StaleMemes]

34 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I've watched years of discussion, suggestions, requests and nagging about "content". This content is advertised as something extremely crucial to recruiting and retaining players. Out of all these important things I've never seen any mention of anything I would enjoy. I've concluded I'm insane.

So what would you enjoy? What would you consider to be content? There must be something you do enjoy!

Edited February 23, 2019 by Capt Aerobane

[Socialism]

1 hour ago, Capt Aerobane said:

So what would you enjoy? What would you consider to be content? There must be something you do enjoy!

It's funny that all these "players = content" / "game is what you make it" folks don't really seem to be playing the game all that much.  When it comes down to it, the game bores them and they're off playing farming simulator.  If only they created content inside the game with the same ardent desire that they defend it on the forums.  

Good OW MMOs provide their players with the tools to make "players = content" work.  NA does not do this.  There are only so many ways to make sinking the same boring AI that sails in circles enjoyable.  

RVR, which used to be one of the primary content generation aspects of the game has more or less been turned into small 10-15 man battles on each side with minimal screening.  2 years ago they were huge multi-nation events where you'd have 50 people in the battle and another 50+ outside screening in most areas of the map.  
 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Socialism

[StaleMemes]

6 minutes ago, Socialism said:

It's funny that all these "players = content" / "game is what you make it" folks don't really seem to be playing the game all that much.  When it comes down to it, the game bores them and they're off playing farming simulator.  If only they created content inside the game with the same ardent desire that they defend it on the forums.  

Good OW MMOs provide their players with the tools to make "players = content" work.  NA does not do this.  There are only so many ways to make sinking the same boring AI that sails in circles enjoyable.  

RVR, which used to be one of the primary content generation aspects of the game has more or less been turned into small 10-15 man battles on each side with minimal screening.  2 years ago it they were huge multi-nation events where you'd have 50 people in the battle and another 50+ outside screening in most areas of the map.  
 

I don't mean to attack @jodgi, I am genuinely curious what parts of NA they enjoy and what they would consider good content to add. Everyone wants something different, a game that already exists in such a small niche (age of sail mmo) cannot afford to only pander to one type of player. To implement the kinds of content I would like by sacrificing what people like Jodgi like would achieve nothing.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Capt Aerobane

[John Cavanaugh]

3 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

Not one of the people said OMG look how cool this trade route is. 

I did. Smuggling coal from Pitts Town to KPR, losing trader snows to Pagan Pete or Xemco, hiding behind baracoa waiting for someone to say in nation that they were attacked and using that as a chance to sprint to safety. It was a lot of fun in those early days - trade routes were entirely player driven. The key problem with that specifically is production buildings and trade goods that have no value other than minting money from the AI. 

Delivery missions might provide something like this, though unlikely. The subject of trade has no easy answer. In so far as providing a baseline for content - location dependent missions. What if 10k north of Atwood there was always a mission available which allowed up to 6 5th rates to join, and contained 2 3rd rates, 4 5th rates, and an Indiaman which had a 30% chance of dropping Instructions aux, or something of similar value. Rather than having players scattered around the map farming Ai fleets for drops, they would congregate around specific locations to fight loosely scripted events for a good chance at a book or module they want. Content for casual or pve players, fighting the mission. Content for pvp players, intercepting groups headed to those locations. Reduction in rarity of rare books combats inflation, and provides Reasonable access for casual or new players. 

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Out of all these important things I've never seen any mention of anything I would enjoy.

Maybe you're just one of the many people who don't like change, as not all changes are always for the good and it's hard to tell which is what, I find myself  going back on prior stances once the positions themselves are fully scrutinized and don't hold up . Perhaps at the surface you don't believe when all the things that have been asked for that are realistic are implemented, that the bell doesn't ding and all the magic comes together and creates an aura effect boosting all prior aspects like what happens when you get all specific pieces of an armor set in D2. It would be hard to imagine all features fitting together in such a way, what we're use to is when 2 features come in contact, they cause havoc or create an exploit.
I consider myself pretty worldly but I don't think many people can plan out such a thing to a T. There's always unexpected consequences somewhere and that's just something you have to live with and as a game developer, which here we all are in a sense with our opinions. The arise of problem is not meant to hold back, it's suppose to bolster forward progression. Solving a large problem is taking 20 large steps in the direction you want to go. There is no "safe" bet, every suggestion has a downside its whether that downside can be solved in isolation to itself.
It's not what you want NA to be, it's what you dream to be able to do in it. So I guess the question to ask yourself would be, what do you wish you could do in NA that you can't do now? Or what do you wish was within the realm of possibility. For me it would be to attack people in my nation, whether it be piracy or clan warfare. I want the freedom to settle internal conflicts in an ultimate fashion, no arguments over chat, just action. That I think is missing in NA and I would like to see it implemented soon.
 

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, Capt Aerobane said:

So what would you enjoy? What would you consider to be content? There must be something you do enjoy!

I'll answer that without hello kittying around because you seem to ask an honest question. I like that. I'll type it up at first adequate convenience.

[LIONOFWALES]

Traders brought me the most content out of this game... I even forced some traders to start running with guns and to find friends to make their runs more successful, they gave me the content I needed for the hunt, and I gave them their content to make their otherwise boorish trade runs real nail biters.

This is good content in Naval Action and encourages those that are willing to, to learn and develop a better escape plan, or a stalwart defense, forcing the hunters then to adapt and become harder fighters, or at least smarter fighters.

The players that decide to throw a tantrum are those that don't embrace learning as well, this is why we need something like a Reinforcements zone mission set. Then these players … or even very new players could get the content they want without risking everything quite as much. Perhaps a set of Reinforcement zone missions only available up to say rank of Captain would suffice.

Now some players can not be ever pleased with anything... You know, those players that say this game sucks because I lost everything after 5 fights instead of saying,... gosh, I really suck and need to get a lot better at this. Some people just want life served to them on a silver platter, well for right now that's not how it is in Naval Action. The more you put into the game... the more you get out of it. And it really is that way with any competitive real time game.

Edited February 24, 2019 by LIONOFWALES

[victor]

8 hours ago, jodgi said:

I've watched years of discussion, suggestions, requests and nagging about "content". This content is advertised as something extremely crucial to recruiting and retaining players. Out of all these important things I've never seen any mention of anything I would enjoy. I've concluded I'm insane.

Instead, you should have concluded that you are part of a minority that feels like "content" is just a big arena for making OS PVP and that would also have answered your question in the other thread: why have 2500 players online (thus the majority) gone away?

Edited February 24, 2019 by victor

[Ronald Speirs]

This game has a combat system but lacks any real content in the open world, it needs an actual economy system where crafting/ modules etc are everywhere and easy to get, POTBS had this done well, its wasnt a hard grind to get a ship and set it up and go have some fun, the ships and modules in game are way to overpriced and some just hard to come by so most people would prefer not to sail out and lose them.

 

[do not say dlc]

'Content creators' for this game!

One of the worst ideeas in this development. Having to rely on a few players to create content in youre game, a game were one can "program" as much content as the imagination lets you. This created friends that in time created strong nations that nobody dared to challange. (Old Sweden)

Allso the spy/alt problem, the thing that the game tries to avoid by introducing this hard shipslot grind. Wrong choice! 

Then the economy, the most boring part of this game. 

To conclude, this game has been in the hands of a few players and we all have to acomodate their whishes and their agenda, this needs to stop.

Remove content creators power and program that in the game, program some in game ts, or at least some way to organize in game without having to use third party apps that are easily intercepted. Give rewards for pvp actions for both sides, not just for wins. 

And for the love of God, stop this circle development, its crazy!

Edited February 24, 2019 by do not say dlc

[Hullabaloo]

1 hour ago, kitsunelegend said:

because they're either lazy, or dont care

or because they simply don't have the resources. We have to have reasonable expectations, It's Game-Labs, not Bethesda.

There is more they can do though, just taking 'treasure fleet' idea as an example. There is nothing difficult in implementing this and it draws players together for PvP. Simple.

But more importantly: a more complex system for RvR with PvP and PvE creating hostility (as it does) but also trade and then Port Specific kill missions for all ship rates popping up to add hostility and so on. Something that all players can feel involved in so that their actions have an impact on the game world (however small) so that the whole nations player base can be mobilised to a common cause? Content that attracts players to an area (with greater risk and thus more reward) and so creates PvP content, but player driven and relevant to the wider game world, not just arbitrarily positioned zones. Sailing from A-B yes, but try to make B the same place for more players?

 

[victor]

26 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

or because they simply don't have the resources. We have to have reasonable expectations, It's Game-Labs, not Bethesda.

Basically this.

I stopped testing, criticising and proposing when I realized this game can go on with so little funding just being an inmense (but empty) PVP arena kept up by the money of the dedicated vets (buying DLCs) and by the occasional discounts (rookies that pay for the game, stay some weeks and then go away).

Myabe Game Labs will find some investor in the future. I hope so, since the potential for a great game is still there. But until then, asking for deep changes in the game format is wasted time.

What I do regret is that some months before the game was quite funny (at least in my opinion) now it is too time demanding, boring and grindy.

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by victor

[van Veen]

What is content and why are people complaining about the lack thereof? Check out the suggestions forum. It's full of very good ideas! I am wondering if ever only one suggestion made it into the game. @Wraith and @Teutonic are 100% right. You can't design a game relying on the players to provide all content. 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

19 minutes ago, van Veen said:

I am wondering if ever only one suggestion made it into the game.

Plenty of them  Start reading from 2014 and take note of everything suggested that is in game or that was tested at any point during development. Might be a better mental exercise than simply writing something pulled out of a morning without coffee.

A hard thing is, to see one's idea that looked good on paper but that didn't work in action. And in that regard it seems many didn't notice or refuse to accept their suggestions didn't work.

But yeah, go check almost everything suggested and all the patch notes since the start before you post something like that. No disrespect meant sir, just pure truth against a void comment.

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, victor said:

Basically this.

"I constructed unrealistic expectations that weren't based on devs stated intentions, but rather my own ideas of what it could be. I now regret this."

You may be done testing and proposing, but you seem to reserve the right to criticise. Probably out of the goodness of your heart.

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, van Veen said:

You can't design a game relying on the players to provide all content. 

The longest running MMO I'm aware of did exactly this (1999 - still running)

[jodgi]

14 hours ago, Capt Aerobane said:

I don't mean to attack @jodgi, I am genuinely curious what parts of NA they enjoy and what they would consider good content to add. Everyone wants something different, a game that already exists in such a small niche (age of sail mmo) cannot afford to only pander to one type of player. To implement the kinds of content I would like by sacrificing what people like Jodgi like would achieve nothing.

First off I want to commend you on your attitude, if more people conducted themselves like you there would be less fighting in these forums.

I think I have to disappoint you, I don't think it's possible to cater to both type players. I think what PVEers want is in direct conflict with what pure PvPers want, and vice versa. Even the most fantastic pve activity is infinitely less attractive to me than anything PvP. So yeah, I'm being impossibly difficult.

Why so defeatist? I've read up on Eve you know the most perfect sandbox game ever. PvP, statistically speaking, is a complete sideshow. You can go look at the numbers, it's public information, most game sessions or player sessions does not even contain any PvP at all. "Most" is an imprecise word, think 1 out of 100 to one out of 1000.

I do not think I'll be pushed out as there is the tremendous attraction of the upcoming duel zones. I won't be able to subject myself to Eco activities to replace a Bellona or two a week, there might be room in those zones for captains in cheaper ships. I'll admit I'm a bit anxious, though.