What is content?

[HachiRoku]

I keep hearing from players that have 1000hours or more that the game lacks content. This is very confusing to me becouse no matter what content is added it will still be a sailing game. All content can be is sail from A-B, kill ai ship at B or pvp somewhere. 

For me content is provided by you guys undocking. Community driven content is a hard thing to get in naval action since 90% of the community does not want to undock and fight. People only want to undock and get an easy win. 

Please give good examples of realistic content that could be implemented. Not content that a game like assassin's creed black flag has since naval action does not have a 150 million dollar Buget.

 

[Alvar Fañez de Minaya]

Agree..... The only "content" this game needs is 2500 players....

I remember a very funny days with 0 content....... But on these times was so easy to all to have ships...

The question is..... This game will have 2500 hardcore players???.....

 

[HachiRoku]

3 minutes ago, Alvar Fañez de Minaya said:

The question is..... This game will have 2500 hardcore players???

The devs are actually quite smart about this I think. They refuse to promote the game in its current state. If the game is released and gets 2000 players back. Do not expect them to stay around. If it ever happens that this game gets its 2500 players back I beg all the players to enjoy the game as it is at that point. Nothing lasts. My favorite game of all time is SKATE 3. It is a matter of time until that 10 year old game servers are turned off. EA has been under pressure to keep them running because there are no skate sequals and not other games like skate since the flick it control scheme belong to them. #SKATE4

[Slim McSauce]

Content is things that you'd expect to be in the game but aren't. For example, there are no outlaw mechanics, no reputation system and pirates are still in a placeholder state.
Raids although heavily harped on have not gotten an introduction, not even a simple version making RVR very stale and 1 dimentional, which has been a problem for a long time.
Small arms fire, swivels, and other special cannon types still have an unclear place in the game, it seems these have been tested once and abandoned even though they're important additions that go hand in hand with the age of sail setting. There's a severe lack of information tracking and display especially on the map which leads to the perception that the world is empty with very little going on. The game does a poor job at displaying events, traffic, and areas of conflict. Entire port campaigns are resolved in a day, if you blink you miss it.

No clan alliances, no clan warfare, no civil wars, lack of clan/nation content which solo play, patrol zones and pvp missions don't account for, they're just extrinsic 
solutions to an intrinsic problem which is that NA lacks any MEANINGFUL content, outside of RVR which has been wayy played out with no variation.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Roronoa]

Battle Royale Kappa

JK

My suggestion to add content are Open World events, similar to the last known fleet location thing we already have. For Example a Treasure Fleet. How does it work? First of all there will be a global message (like the last known fleet location) which says something like "Treasure Fleet sighted in Hispaniola" (Hispaniola is just an example). This is when the event starts. Now somewhere in Hispaniola an AI Indiaman with damn good loot sails around Hispaniola and has an escort as a fleet (maybe as strong epic events AI or reinforcement AI). When someone tags the Indiaman into battle, the battle wont close, its open for ever. Like the reinforcement zone there is one big join circle with 2 sides Attacker and Treasure Fleet. Green on Green is allowed in this battle. The Goal is simple, get the loot from the indiaman and escape. I could imagine an Event like this would be fun and not to hard to implement i believe.

I think Open World Events in general would add much more content, since it manages to bring players to one specific place and will provide PvP content.

 

One time i had one of all fish in the game at once . Maybe make something craftable which requires having all the different fishes. I would love to see "WTB Catfish" in Global chat

[HachiRoku]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Exploration, an actual functioning player-driven economy with viable, non-inflation inducing trade; crafting that's deeper than one-click magic; on-demand RvR (aka raids) and PvP (instant-pvp zone creation, duel circles); traditional MMO-style gathering of resources based on active time in game; do I need to keep going?  When you base an entire game around players as content, then when there are no players then there is no content.  I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse here.

 I've said it a thousand times: The open world is the world's worst matchmaking engine, and if you don't have all of the content that an MMO with an OW should have to keep new and casual players interested while they're getting crushed on there way to gaining PvP experience then the rest of the game systems fall apart. You might as well have Legends, and well.. we see how that turned out.

You basically want current mechanics changed or refined? Inflation will always be in game because of AI farming and production buildings. The issue with the economy is that 1 player alone is capable of building a 1st rate fleet at basically no cost. One click magic or a 10 day waiting period would not change the economy and would drive players away faster than any change has so far.  You should not ask for content then. Ask for this. I agree with you about many things but simply saying the game lacks content means something totally different to what you just said. You are simply unhappy with current content that is already ingame. 

MMOs are by design suppose to encourage player driven content. Otherwise they would be single player games with online functions like Elite. 

I have limited experience with economy in games and just use real life and game as a comparison. I liked the first and origial way of AI producing mats. It had its flaws but it had potential. 

 

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

28 minutes ago, Roronoa Sensei said:

Battle Royale Kappa

JK

My suggestion to add content are Open World events, similar to the last known fleet location thing we already have. For Example a Treasure Fleet. How does it work? First of all there will be a global message (like the last known fleet location) which says something like "Treasure Fleet sighted in Hispaniola" (Hispaniola is just an example). This is when the event starts. Now somewhere in Hispaniola an AI Indiaman with damn good loot sails around Hispaniola and has an escort as a fleet (maybe as strong epic events AI or reinforcement AI). When someone tags the Indiaman into battle, the battle wont close, its open for ever. Like the reinforcement zone there is one big join circle with 2 sides Attacker and Treasure Fleet. Green on Green is allowed in this battle. The Goal is simple, get the loot from the indiaman and escape. I could imagine an Event like this would be fun and not to hard to implement i believe.

I think Open World Events in general would add much more content, since it manages to bring players to one specific place and will provide PvP content.

 

One time i had one of all fish in the game at once . Maybe make something craftable which requires having all the different fishes. I would love to see "WTB Catfish" in Global chat

Basically content to me are objectives like such. Events that motivate people to go out and undock which in turn creates more content through traditional PvP. Bosses could be another like legendary ships that randomly spawn and attack players. Again content to me events that drive a player to go out to open world and interact. We have content now obviously but it tends to be fast burning. 

[Teutonic]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Exploration, an actual functioning player-driven economy with viable, non-inflation inducing trade; crafting that's deeper than one-click magic; on-demand RvR (aka raids) and PvP (instant-pvp zone creation, duel circles); traditional MMO-style gathering of resources based on active time in game; do I need to keep going?  When you base an entire game around players as content, then when there are no players then there is no content.  I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse here.

I've said it a thousand times: The open world is the world's worst matchmaking engine, and if you don't have all of the content that an MMO with an OW should have to keep new and casual players interested while they're getting crushed on there way to gaining PvP experience then the rest of the game systems fall apart. You might as well have Legends, and well.. we see how that turned out.

pretty much this.

@HachiRoku your content as you said is other folks being in the world for you to have an opportunity to fight them. Those other folks' content is what @Wraith suggests. They want "stuff" to do that isn't always 100% PvP battles. If those players get bored, they don't log in. If they don't log in you don't get your content and you then get bored. So the cycle continues.

Real genuine "content" addition to this game will of course use what is already there. yeah, when you boil the game down to players going from point A to B it really seems dumb....but that's every god damn game when you try and bring it to the core of what it does. a story telling game like the Legend of Zelda has you start somewhere and there is always an ending, but the "content" in Breath of the Wild is everything inbetween and all the optional shit you can do.

1. Exploration - if admin thinks we have exploration by means of going to a port we've never gone to, to "see what resources are there." I'm sorry but that's a skeleton and shallow excuse. REAL EXPLORATION would have things in the sea and on remote parts of land. We have the foundation of possible exploration like Bottles and the trade fleet nonsense, and they are fine but we can expand on it so much for it to be an amazing player driven experience. You'd have all the folks out in the OW looking for rare resource caches near a blank shore, or a mission asking you to travel to a location to find lost treasure.

2. Player-Driven Economy - Needs work, plain and simple. a MMO "always" needs an economy back by an NPC basic introduction. Eve Online's economy is backed by the NPCs giving out blueprints, skill books, and basic "modules," the NPCs give the means for players to create the economy. I am not advocating for increased "Content" here, but we need some refinement.

We have the means to create a player economy here, but the players don't really have ANYTHING to do with resources except for creating ships. Where's the option for players to support port expansion on trade and defenses? what about a merchant in a port that you can talk to and they tell you where some players are buying goods that you have to sell? Basic Trade information to get the ball rolling.

3. RvR - We've again, got a foundation for what RvR looks and feels like. But adding or enhancing RvR isn't less content or useless additions. players want to contribute to a Nation or Clan's conquest by more than just shooting cannonballs, you may not want to do that and that's 100% fine, but it shouldn't hurt to have more trade minded or PvE minded folks finding ways they can also join in.

Things like lowering maintenance costs to ports based on holding regions, things like i mentioned earlier to contributing to a Port's defenses or it's difficult to destabilize (like a debuff to hostility). Finding ways for clans that own ports to steer trade goods towards their port. Imagine if you could invest in your port to force some of the rare resources from a nearby port to actually spawn in your port instead? In Europa Universalis you can make large empire investments in order to make all the trade goods go to you more than other nations, this drastically increases your trade income while your competition's income is lowered. I'd love to see something to that affect here.

 

again, What you, Hachi, want is already in the game. But you rely on other people to be playing and when people stop playing you can't enjoy what you want. We need incentives for folks that rely on other game features to continue playing even AFTER you sink them. Eve Online is a hardcore full-loot PvP game, BUT EVEN CCP knows you can't have a game based solely on PvP - you need a PvE backbone, you need a system in place for players to thrive economically so that PvP only minded players can thrive by killing anyone they see.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Teutonic

[HachiRoku]

7 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Real genuine "content" addition to this game will of course use what is already there. yeah, when you boil the game down to players going from point A to B it really seems dumb....but that's every god damn game when you try and bring it to the core of what it does. a story telling game like the Legend of Zelda has you start somewhere and there is always an ending, but the "content" in Breath of the Wild is everything inbetween and all the optional shit you can do.

You're 100% right. My point is that sooner or later you will get sick of it. If the devs change all the great ideas you pointed out tomorrow. You would most likely get burned out after another few hours again. Look a games like call of dudy. They release the same game every year and add no content. Compare the last release and call of duty 2. What is the major difference? Its that I am not playing anymore but newer players are. The most important thing for this game is for more players to come. They will leave sooner or later. RVR in its current state is a disaster.  Everything in this game that forces players to deal with ai besides missions is terrible. Reinforcement zones included. People should not be asking for content but should ask for what they want. Do you ever see me asking for more content? How should the devs know what the hell I mean? I make a thread and ask for exactly what I mean. Personally I would rather this game to be lobby based and you are correct in saying this game from a technical standpoint has everything I personally want. I don't see the combat model as content however. For me content is a new addition to the game. The combat model, RVR and economy are ingame already. The state they are in has nothing to do with new content or not. This is why I am asking what content is. My very definition of what it is, is something totally different to what people that say #morecontent mean. 

Don't say we lack content. Say RVR sucks, I have a certain idea to improve it. Trust me. I am the biggest troll in this game but when its about combat mechanics I get serious. I try to find a balance between elite and casual. I personally want 100% hardcore but I know that 100% hardcore will not provide me with content(future casual players that will become hardcore sailors) The devs listen to ideas from certain players and I have been around long enough to know that if admin sees a post saying the game lacks content he will ignore the person. 

Nothing personal against you. I have not seen you making claims like this.

Also, I am critical of the testbed combat mechanics too. I am not overreacting yet because I like the direction its taking. 4lbs more dps than 42 is retarded. Small caliber guns on upper decks being completely useless is also a hugh issue. The current combat model is flawed at its very core. How players do not see this is beyond me. What will most likly happen when testbeds model goes live is that we get some proper pvp tests. The devs will watch and listen to the people that complain. I hope they find a balance because there would never be any "balance" with the current one. Ever since the current combat model was added I called it trash. I was always very critical of it. I did not quit because the combat does still has some good elements its just way to forgiving and positioning is not as important as it once was and in real life. Still important but not decisive. I am open minded about the new one. Again its extreme but a few hotfixes could make it good.  

Why do you think I made this thread?? I really had no idea what everyone means by content.... The thread is a real question. I just gave my opinion about what I believe content is. 

[Teutonic]

15 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Nothing personal against you. I have not seen you making claims like this.

Also, I am critical of the testbed combat mechanics too. I am not overreacting yet because I like the direction its taking. 4lbs more dps than 42 is retarded. Small caliber guns on upper decks being completely useless is also a hugh issue. The current combat model is flawed at its very core. How players do not see this is beyond me. What will most likly happen when testbeds model goes live is that we get some proper pvp tests. The devs will watch and listen to the people that complain. I hope they find a balance because there would never be any "balance" with the current one. Ever since the current combat model was added I called it trash. I was always very critical of it. I did not quit because the combat does still has some good elements its just way to forgiving and positioning is not as important as it once was and in real life. Still important but not decisive. I am open minded about the new one. Again its extreme but a few hotfixes could make it good.  

Why do you think I made this thread?? I really had no idea what everyone means by content.... The thread is a real question. I just gave my opinion about what I believe content is. 

Even when I am heated I don't mean to say I hate this game. You are not wrong when you say 'content is there but saying that we need more content is just a waste.'

That is why in the past I have offered a number of suggestions that, to me, would be a more enjoyable experience for players in the game, but I clearly can be wrong sometimes and within those threads there have been people who disagree with me.

I like too like the idea of bigger ships dealing more damage, I am just cautious and worried that the testbed numbers have swung to the other side. I'll wait to see how it plays out in bigger setting and in PvP but my initial thoughts from trying it out and asking others that I know, I do agree with them that fir/fir lineships will probably be oppressive.

when I talk about "content" I basically mean additional features to existing game mechanics, or creating new functions that we don't have currently. examples included in my above posts.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Teutonic

[Socialism]

yadda yadda   players = content.  I get that position, but wolves don't only fight other wolves.  The sheep come and go in this game, mostly go.  We need to ask ourselves why?  

Simply put, there is not enough dynamic content to keep them busy in the game.  Mission variety, challenging econ, vibrant player run markets,  clan battles, meaningless ports.  This game just cannot keep casual types of players invested for long and without them, PVP dies.

There have been numerous content creation suggestions on the forums over the years, even made several myself.   

[Farrago]

Content would mean that there would be numerous legitimate and meaningful roles for players to assume in the game. For example, let's say you like to just go out and wage open water warfare. You want a warship and you want foes/targets. You'll also need bases of operations and the supplies necessary to wage your war. You'll need ships at those bases; they'll need cannons and repairs. You don't want to farm or trade. We need a system that provides roles for players to meet your goals as those players meet their own, perhaps different, goals.

With the exception of free ports, your national ports should have needs. Foods, luxury goods, etc should have to flow to them in order to keep those ports open, happy, and useful to you. Traders would have a role beyond just getting a fatter and fatter bank account. You'd have targets. Your nation would need to protect its traders if it wanted to prosper. If you want to defeat or hinder another nation, your efforts to interdict their trade should have more meaning than costing one Captain some money. Your economy would have to be developed enough to afford the national expense of a lineship fleet if you wanted to expand or protect your gains. You're limited on tows so someone could help transport ships for you. You're limited on time so a merchant captain or clan might be of help. Communication, deals, and contracts should be expanded and facilitated by the game. A God-like Gamelabs story runner could ultimately play a role. Famine strikes Puerto de Espana requires immediate provisions. Massive fire in Bridgetown requires 50,000 oak logs and 20,000 stone blocks to rebuild the town and restore resource production. Disease strikes La Navasse requiring medicines and extra labor. Some players want to flock to the most prosperous nations, but the best undeveloped opportunities for new resources are with emerging nations.

It would be an intricate, long term, and complicated development project but IMO its the only way to attract and keep a critical mass of players.

[HachiRoku]

26 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The combat model will not solve the player or the "content" problem, whether it is "Players-as-Content," which you desire, or PvE content that keeps the new/casual/average player around. Period.

I am sorry. Where did I say the combat model would fix anything but combat? BTW I am pretty sure your average casual buys this game to go out a fire cannons of a 100 gun 1st rate. Since that is done in a battle instance it as everything to do with the combat model of the game. The casual doesn't give a shit how easy it is to get a ship. They only care if its to difficult. In a realistic working economy 1st rates would be very very hard to get considering they were the aircraft carriers of the day. Getting from a basic cutter to a first rate is what? 100 hours for someone that joins the game with no idea what to do. Thats well worth their money and the people that buy the game for that are happy. Most sane human beings do not spend 4000 hours playing naval action like I/we do. Admin quoted one of the people complaining about lack of content saying that he has no idea what they can do for the players with 13000 hours. Maybe and just maybe admin also does not understand what you all say by simply complaining about lack of content. 

[StaleMemes]

For me, content is different ways to play the game and more immersive/detailed missions and roles.

Right now you can play as a national member of a large, powerful clan, fighting RVR fleet battles, or you can play a solo raider with a heavily kitted out superfrigate ambushing people and killing them 1v1 or 1v2 before they can escape or get reinforcements. Thats it. You do one of those two for hours on end, or you derp around in a gunboat or something.

You can also trade, but that really falls under the RVR umbrella as most materials trading (the interesting trading) happens with protection of clans in large fleets.

All other playstyles are just not there. Want to be a pirate? No. Even if you limit yourself to realistic pirate ships and focus on raiding, you still can't do it because you are locked into nation based mechanics there is absolutely 0 framework for piracy or pirate playstyles, there is no smuggling to be done, and you are just playing as a normal solo player and artificially limiting yourself without any benefits you would expect from being a pirate (lack of rules, concealed hideouts, smuggling missions, etc.). The lack of unique playstyles and "content" in this regard shoe horns everyone into playing the same way, in the same ships, in the same places. For me, that just gets boring. The only content that this game has that is interesting enough to warrant doing it is RVR or dueling type pvp. All RVR boils down to the same thing, fleet vs fleet combat in lineships or frigates. (sometimes shallow water stuff two, then meta shifts to whatever is the most potent shallow ship, requins and hercs? Even port battles have nothing to do with a port, naval bombardment, or landing operation. It is fleet vs fleet lineship battles just like the ones in the OW, except with more precise BR limits. If you see a player you either attack them or run from them, there are no allied nations to help or alliances to foster, just kill kill kill sink sink sink in the same settings and with usually the same ships. All non RVR or solo dueling is only worth doing to prepare you for RVR and duelling. PVE grinding isn't fun enough to do on its own for sure, and trading isn't stimulating or interesting, its just rolling the die to see if there is a fleet waiting for you at your destination. I found it very boring for 99% of the open ocean voyage where I never encountered anyone, and then frustratingly out of my control when I arrived and departed because if I saw an enemy ship there was no possible escape for a merchant vessel, and nobody would ever attack without overwhelming odds. So basically you either just sail in uneventfully or get ganked. Incredibly rarely do you actually kill an attacker or fight them off, because if that was even a possibility of happening they wouldn't attack at all. I don't want to play the RVR MMO focused meta scrutinizing role that you must in naval action to get non repetitive (well, still pretty repetitive) content.

This lack of diversity is also reflected in missions. Sail here, kill something. Sail around here, and kill several somethings. Deliver this to there.That is missions in naval action. I can think of so many possible missions that would actually be really fun to do in 10 seconds that it makes it so frustrating to have the absolute bare minimum in that regard.

How about finding and destroying a pirate outpost? Sink the pirate ships, then shell the hideout and land troops. That would involve more interesting combat, relevant land to ship interaction, and much more challenging navigation/ship control to not beach oneself while approaching the shore and fighting among the shallow water and sandbanks where pirates would have a base. If there were missions like that (or if pirate players could make hideouts and they could be raided) then that would be the kind of content that would bring me back. How about a smuggling mission, telling you to sneak into enemy territory and deliver supplies to a waiting ship? How about running a blockade to relieve an embattled town? Bombarding a small fort before infantry assault it?

Sail here, sink this. "ok, i've done that."
Sail here, sink this. "ok sure, i'll do that again."
Sail here, sink this. "ok commander, are you sure that there arent other matters to be attended to? ok fine."
Sail here, sink this. "ok piss off mate."

3 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

All content can be is sail from A-B, kill ai ship at B or pvp somewhere.

I absolutely don't agree! The age of sail consisted of SO MUCH more than just sailing from one spot to another with a fleet and shooting other fleets of identical ships to yours. Escorting things, smuggling things, raiding things, scouting things, suppressing piracy (via sinking pirates and attacking their safe havens), transporting troops and supporting ground campaigns and sieges, etc, etc. Of important distinction, is that these aren't just PVP/single player events. Piracy and suppression of piracy could be player driven, so could blockade running and smuggling, if the game just had a framework for it. Navigation, ship management*, and role specialization have been completely removed from the game, sure, but that doesn't mean these things couldn't be fun content. It just means that they aren't in Naval Action. Is it too late for NA to add these things back without starting over from scratch? Probably, but I'm not trying to change the game at this point, I'm just explaining why I rarely play it anymore. I don't fault the game developers for not making the game I want, I just think I didn't quite understand what NA is supposed to be when I started playing. I just want a different game than the devs and a lot of the community I guess.

 

I just don't see the point of an open world if it exists solely as a frame work for creating pvp battles. You can get matchmakers to do the same thing faster and more fairly.

 

 

*at sea not in port

Edited February 23, 2019 by Capt Aerobane

[HachiRoku]

28 minutes ago, Farrago said:

Content would mean that there would be numerous legitimate and meaningful roles for players to assume in the game. For example, let's say you like to just go out and wage open water warfare. You want a warship and you want foes/targets. You'll also need bases of operations and the supplies necessary to wage your war. You'll need ships at those bases; they'll need cannons and repairs. You don't want to farm or trade. We need a system that provides roles for players to meet your goals as those players meet their own, perhaps different, goals.

With the exception of free ports, your national ports should have needs. Foods, luxury goods, etc should have to flow to them in order to keep those ports open, happy, and useful to you. Traders would have a role beyond just getting a fatter and fatter bank account. You'd have targets. Your nation would need to protect its traders if it wanted to prosper. If you want to defeat or hinder another nation, your efforts to interdict their trade should have more meaning than costing one Captain some money. Your economy would have to be developed enough to afford the national expense of a lineship fleet if you wanted to expand or protect your gains. You're limited on tows so someone could help transport ships for you. You're limited on time so a merchant captain or clan might be of help. Communication, deals, and contracts should be expanded and facilitated by the game. A God-like Gamelabs story runner could ultimately play a role. Famine strikes Puerto de Espana requires immediate provisions. Massive fire in Bridgetown requires 50,000 oak logs and 20,000 stone blocks to rebuild the town and restore resource production. Disease strikes La Navasse requiring medicines and extra labor. Some players want to flock to the most prosperous nations, but the best undeveloped opportunities for new resources are with emerging nations.

It would be an intricate, long term, and complicated development project but IMO its the only way to attract and keep a critical mass of players.

Good Idea. The issue however is if the AI buys resources the gold is coming from nothing. It causes more and more inflation. Inflation could be controlled better if players had to buy resources all over the map and could not produce them themselves. All games lack  late game goldsinks to be fair since the player has no need for new ships if they farm ai. They keep making more and more gold and demand more and more for rare books. 

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Capt Aerobane said:

Escorting things, smuggling things, raiding things, scouting things, suppressing piracy (via sinking pirates and attacking their safe havens), transporting troops and supporting ground campaigns and sieges, etc, etc.

But you prove my point by saying this. 

Escort missions = Sail A-B

Smuggling = Sail A-B with more risk

Raiding things = Kill AI ship somewhere.

Scouting things. Sail from A-B and scout

Suppressing piracy = Kill AI pirate ships like you can already do now. etc etc etc. 

That is not content. Its more of the same thing. I gather from most people here is that they want improvements to existing mechanics. Not actually new missions etc. 

[StaleMemes]

13 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

But you prove my point by saying this. 

Escort missions = Sail A-B

Smuggling = Sail A-B with more risk

Raiding things = Kill AI ship somewhere.

Scouting things. Sail from A-B and scout

Suppressing piracy = Kill AI pirate ships like you can already do now. etc etc etc. 

That is not content. Its more of the same thing. I gather from most people here is that they want improvements to existing mechanics. Not actually new missions etc. 

" How about finding and destroying a pirate outpost? Sink the pirate ships, then shell the hideout and land troops. That would involve more interesting combat, relevant land to ship interaction, and much more challenging navigation/ship control to not beach oneself while approaching the shore and fighting among the shallow water and sandbanks where pirates would have a base. "

Scouting and smuggling would be about evading combat and sailing through difficult to navigate waters, not just sail, point gun at enemy, fire. Suppressing piracy would involve finding pirates and their hideouts, which would be a completely new combat environment and mechanic, trying to predict their locations and sneakily stalk them back to their base, maybe try to estimate the base position from reported pirate attacks, again, not just sail from one place to another.

If you simplify things to the extent you simplify naval operations, all open world games can be broken down into "go here and kill or deliver something" over and over again. But its not that simple. I simplified RVR to some extent as well of course, but RVR IS actually all fleet vs fleet combat.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Capt Aerobane

[jodgi]

Subscribed. "Content" is one of the big mysteries to me.

[Farrago]

33 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Good Idea. The issue however is if the AI buys resources the gold is coming from nothing. It causes more and more inflation. Inflation could be controlled better if players had to buy resources all over the map and could not produce them themselves. All games lack  late game goldsinks to be fair since the player has no need for new ships if they farm ai. They keep making more and more gold and demand more and more for rare books. 

Players do have to buy the resources either with the costs of farming or cost of time sailing to where they are available or both. I’m not arguing that the system is inflationary. I’m saying that if the AI buys the resources, it actually does something with them such as keep the AI population of your ports happy and healthy. And if the transaction does not take place, there are negative consequences. Those who produce and deliver the beans and bullets become heroes in the struggle as well.

[HachiRoku]

Just now, Wraith said:

That's crap and you know it. You think the new and casual EVE player plays because they think their sole goal is to get a Titan or own a Keepstar in their first 100 hours?  Pfft. New and casual players play the game to feel like a bad ass pirate, or a trading tycoon, or a naval captain, all in the age of sail.  Most don't buy the game just to sail first rates, they buy it for the experience and entertainment.

I mean, do you even talk to new or casual players or even play the game any more outside of popping out of Tortue for a duel or two?  Do you have any ability to think outside the narrow range of play style that you've defined for yourself? Not one person here who has described in detail what kind of "content" they're asking for equates content to grind, right?  I think most of us with 1000s of hours in the game have probably spend 8 out of every 10 of those hours AFK or watching Netflix while we sail.  Let that sink in for a minute.  And leave for the moment the b.s. new combat model and the shortening of battles to 10 minutes instead of an hour+ and think about how that ratio of doing nothing sailing to actual combat changes and whether that's good for the game.

The "content" that most people are asking for is the glue between the combat events.  And it's that which the dev's have failed spectacularly at providing. The best MMO's are those that give the players the tools to create that glue themselves. And there are a handful of really great models out there that the dev's could have modeled the OW side of the game and its economy after.. but like most things in the game they decided to recreate a square wheel where someone else's round one would have worked. And instead of admitting their mistake they decide to shave a side off and go with a triangle instead of refining their current model to have a few more sides that approximates the round one.

As a fan, it's just painful to experience.

 

I talk to casuals all the time. I get casuals started all the time. I supply them with the ships I dont need all the time. I also dont just give them random oak ships. I get them fully pimped ships to help them out. I remember when this game first was released. I remember the hours and hours we grinded. I remember exactly how people reacted on ts going from surprise to trinco to connie to 3rd rate to paval and holy hello kitty the santi. Not one of the people said OMG look how cool this trade route is. This game at its very core is combat. Its limited marketing focuses on combat and not trading. Shit, I was sold a lobby based game with no trading at all. 

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, Farrago said:

Players do have to buy the resources either with the costs of farming or cost of time sailing to where they are available or both. I’m not arguing that the system is inflationary. I’m saying that if the AI buys the resources, it actually does something with them such as keep the AI population of your ports happy and healthy. And if the transaction does not take place, there are negative consequences. Those who produce and deliver the beans and bullets become heroes in the struggle as well.

true. I guess it could work well if it was resources the player could not produce. The gold that goes into buildings is not really alot compared to the outcome of missions. 

[HachiRoku]

5 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Subscribed. "Content" is one of the big mysteries to me.

Apparently its not lack of content that is an issue. Its the current content that is. If people made that clear I would have never needed this thread....

[Dibbler (Retired)]

 

 Some are happy with PvP content alone.

 Some look for content as a direction for stuff to do, or to "fluff" out the content for what they do... trade, explore or whatever.

 Some look for a deeper level to owning ports and RvR - for example ability to put gold into ports to build new defences or improve their port in some way.

etc....

 

 Content should just provide alternatives that players can work with or ignore depending on their play style i think.  Just extra options to act as gold sinks, extra depth beyond PvP/RvR for the sake of it.  Problem is though like most things you ask 30 players what content would be good and get 30 different replies .

[HachiRoku]

14 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The "content" that most people are asking for is the glue between the combat events.  And it's that which the dev's have failed spectacularly at providing. The best MMO's are those that give the players the tools to create that glue themselves. And there are a handful of really great models out there that the dev's could have modeled the OW side of the game and its economy after.. but like most things in the game they decided to recreate a square wheel where someone else's round one would have worked. And instead of admitting their mistake they decide to shave a side off and go with a triangle instead of refining their current model to have a few more sides that approximates the round one.

Whats the glue between the combat events? We agree RVR sucks(I have been quite loud about that), Admin already said they are working on it to my knowledge. We agree economy is not working. Whats your point? 

[StaleMemes]

10 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

 Not one of the people said OMG look how cool this trade route is. This game at its very core is combat. Its limited marketing focuses on combat and not trading. Shit, I was sold a lobby based game with no trading at all. 

You are using what the game is make claims about what it ideally should be. Of course nobody got excited about a trading route. There are no trading routes... What trade route?

"This one here is a cool trade route, you sail in a straight line from generic_port_17 with generic_resource_7_profit_200%_hold_weight_x to generic_port_35 and earn credits 7.3% faster than this other path."

Risk is equal, navigational difficulty is equal... Thats not a trade route, that is a mathematical equation!

The game is at its very core nothing but combat because it has been put together that way, not because it has to be. People want content that isn't just the same brand of PVP. Yes, you can get some new or improved content by improving PVP, but ultimately very few games are 100% PVP RVR based with 0 relevant and enjoyable PVE type content. As I said, if the open world has no open world type features like other games, what is the point? A 2D navigation system or just straight up matchmaking system could achieve that type of gameplay much more efficiently. We've had innumerable patches working on PVP, and almost none working on what happens in between the pvp or in place of it. PVP isn't working because carrying the weight of the entire playerbase without any support from other content. PVP development is going in circles trying to find an impossibly good and universally enjoyable meta that just cannot exist. An entire game based around sailing around an empty and barren open world looking for players to fight. I enjoyed sea trials combat more.

As for the marketing... https://www.navalaction.com/#open-world

"build, trade" "navigate" as main subsections. This isn't a lobby based game with no trading. What would be the point of having an open world whatsoever if every effort is then made to turn said open world into a de facto lobby system? Just use lobbies then!